Complex Genitive Confusion

earwax_man

Haigh, gach éinne,
Tá cúpla céist agam maidir le gramadach na Gaeilge; brón orm má phléascaim bhúr gcinn :P Toisc go gcuireann roinnt des na daoine ceisteanna ar a chéile anseo tríd an mBéarla; déanfaidh mé an méid céanna

Okay, so here's the deal, I have self taught myself Irish for the most part. I've 17, come from rural Cork, and I can speak Irish fluently. But there are some grammatical areas that I don't fully understand, even though I adore linguistics, since most of the grammar books for Irish are either in Irish, or simply suck.

The genitive case confuses me most of all; this isn't a simple explanation of "oh, it's just possession...etc."; my problem is that Irish loves to either use partive dative case ("de"), or just simply common nominative/accusative case, and throw it's rules out of the window without any reason why.
(Thanks for staying with this post up to now!)

For example; in my Irish book, Fiúntas, one phrase says:
"In ionad iarracht a dhéanamh cabhrú leis..", should this not be "in ionad iarrachta a dhéanamh cabhrú leis...", or is this some strange appositional context with a verbal phrase?

There are others; "ag baint sult mailíseach"..."ag baint sult mailísigh", no?
"Ag déanamh do dhícheall"..."Ag déanamh do dhíchill"?

There are other times, but unfortunately I can't remember any such proper examples. The best I can ask is about using strings of genitive case in a row; such as "intransitive gerundive verb + genitive noun + genitive noun" or "genitive complex preposition + noun + noun":
-> Ag sonrú fir na clainne...
-> Ag úsáid giotáir leictrigh m'athar...
-> In ionad an fhir mhóir na h-áite a fheiceáil...
-> Ba é sin chun na seanmhná na scoile...

Also, why the hell are there exceptions to genitive? Polish loves using reams of genitive adjectives and nouns.

What is the use of "cuid" and "roinnt" when used as associative markers with regard to case? Cuid + genitive (cuid na bhfear) versus Cuid + de (cuid des na fearaibh/fir)? Roinnt + genitive (roinnt airgid) versus Roinnt + de (roinnt den airgead)?

Almost at the end of this post, please bear with me!
Is "gan" the only preposition that uses accusative case? It's the only one I can think of that does :P

How can I form the comparative construction of "the...the..." such as in Germanic languages? "The more the merrier...", "Je mehr, desto besser"...
I know that the copula must be used for the second part, but I've never seen its construction shown formally. "Is mó an t-airgead is ea is fearr"?

What would the phrase be "to make smb do sth"? German: "Jmdn dazu bringen, etw zu machen"

When does one use the verbal phrase "bhí X do mo <gerund>"...? Can it always be used if you refer directly to an object? "Bhí sé do mo bhualadh", "Táthar do m'fheiceáil", "Beidh siad dá úsáid", "Bheifí dá rialúchán", "Bhíodh sí do bhualadh an fhir"? Odd examples, but we're talking grammatically here

Finally! What the hell is up with eclipsis in predicative statements? "Seo an áit a ndéantar an-chuid botún". What is the urú on "déantar" referring to? Surely a feminine agent, "áit", should be "seo an áit a d[h]éantar..." before applying the dentals rule?

GRMA

Gumbi

Cuir ceist ar an bhfóram seo http://irishlearner.awyr.com/phpBB3/. Ba cheart go mbeimid in ann roinnt cabhrach a thabhairt duit.

Aard

A lot of questions!

First your question about the genitive not being used where you'd expect. Your example: "In ionad iarracht a dhéanamh cabhrú leis.." The noun here is oblique as it's governed by "a dhéanamh" and not by "in ionad". You could parse the above as [in ionad [iarracht a dhéanamh cabhrú leis]]. As such, the noun is not in the genitive case.

This also happens with "tar éis". When you have "tar éis" + NP, you use the genitive. But when you have "tar éis" + VP, you don't. (NP = noun phrase, VP = verb phrase.) So:
"tar éis lóin"
but
"tar éis lón a ithe".

There are others; "ag baint sult mailíseach"..."ag baint sult mailísigh", no?
"Ag déanamh do dhícheall"..."Ag déanamh do dhíchill"?

Tbh, afaik you're right about those ones. (TG of sult is suilt though, right?) I'd imagine Fiúntas isn't 100% correct.

-> Ag sonrú fir na clainne...
-> Ag úsáid giotáir leictrigh m'athar...
-> In ionad an fhir mhóir na h-áite a fheiceáil...
-> Ba é sin chun na seanmhná na scoile...

For your noun+noun sequences, remember that the only NP that gets the usual TG is the last one. The preceding ones just get séimhithe. So:
"ag sonrú fhear na clainne"
"ag úsáid ghiotár leicreach m'athar"
The third sentence above falls under the "in ionad + VP" rule in the first question. It'd be "in ionad fear mór na háite a fheiceáil"
I'm not entirely sure what you mean in the last sentence.

What is the use of "cuid" and "roinnt" when used as associative markers with regard to case? Cuid + genitive (cuid na bhfear) versus Cuid + de (cuid des na fearaibh/fir)? Roinnt + genitive (roinnt airgid) versus Roinnt + de (roinnt den airgead)?

"Cuid + de" and "roinnt + de" mean the same thing: "some of". "Roinnt + TG" means "some":
"roinnt airgid" = some money
"roinnt/cuid den airgead" = some of the money
Could you expand on "cuid + TG"? Not sure what exactly you mean.

Is "gan" the only preposition that uses accusative case? It's the only one I can think of that does

Yeah, "gan" doesn't work like most prepositions in Irish. So it's "gan mé" and not "*ganaim" or something. I wouldn't say "accusative" case though; it's still an oblique argument, and neither an agent or a patient. Accusative case is shown through word order in Irish, and has no salient markings distinguishing it from the nominative. Anyway, that doesn't really matter, the point is that it's not dative!


---


I'll look at your other questions at a later stage. In the meantime, there's a Languages & Linguistics board here www.incatena.org that you may like. Everybody there is able to discuss things using the correct terminology (as I'm sure you've found out by now, most people don't know terms beyond genitive, if even that). In addition, there's a few people there who know a good deal about Irish and are very helpful.

pog it

Gumbi wrote: »

Cuir ceist ar an bhfóram seo http://irishlearner.awyr.com/phpBB3/. Ba cheart go mbeimid in ann roinnt cabhrach a thabhairt duit.

See aard's point about verb phrase above.

Gumbi

pog it wrote: »

See aard's point about verb phrase above.

What part? What's wrong with roinnt cabhrach?

Aard

Oh dear, can of worms!!

@Pó;g it
If there was no "roinnt" in that sentence, then yes, there would be no TG. Note that there would be no TG expected anyway after "in ann", unlike compound prepositions like "in ionad". So:
"Ba cheart go mbeimid in ann cabhair a thabhairt duit."

When the qualifier "roinnt" is put in, "cabhair" takes TG as usual:
"Ba cheart go mbeimid in ann roinnt cabhrach a thabhairt duit."


"Roinnt cabhrach" is a noun phrase inside a verb phrase. Here, the noun "cabhair" is governed by "roinnt", while the noun phrase "roinnt cabhrach" as a whole is governed by the verb "tabhair".


---


To use my example of "after eating lunch" above, you'd have:
"tar éis lóin" > after lunch
"tar éis lón a ithe" > after eating lunch
"tar éis roinnt lóin a ithe" > after eating some lunch

The third sentence would be parsed as so:

[tar éis roinnt l&#243;in] a ithe


---


Hope that clears things up!

Enkidu

earwax_man wrote: »

There are others; "ag baint sult mailíseach"..."ag baint sult mailísigh", no?
"Ag déanamh do dhícheall"..."Ag déanamh do dhíchill"?

In some dialects adjectives aren't inflected in the genitive.

What is the use of "cuid" and "roinnt" when used as associative markers with regard to case? Cuid + genitive (cuid na bhfear) versus Cuid + de (cuid des na fearaibh/fir)? Roinnt + genitive (roinnt airgid) versus Roinnt + de (roinnt den airgead)?

cuid na bhfear = the share of the men
cuid desna fearaibh = a share of the men

The partitive dative is almost always indefinite.

Remember Munster has "coda" the plural of cuid.

Almost at the end of this post, please bear with me!
Is "gan" the only preposition that uses accusative case? It's the only one I can think of that does :P

gan, idir, mar also use the accusative. Although the accusative form is identical to the nominative form now. (For a few words their nominative form today is their old accusative form)

How can I form the comparative construction of "the...the..." such as in Germanic languages? "The more the merrier...", "Je mehr, desto besser"...
I know that the copula must be used for the second part, but I've never seen its construction shown formally. "Is mó an t-airgead is ea is fearr"?

Your construction seems fine to me.

What would the phrase be "to make smb do sth"? German: "Jmdn dazu bringen, etw zu machen"

When does one use the verbal phrase "bhí X do mo <gerund>"...? Can it always be used if you refer directly to an object? "Bhí sé do mo bhualadh", "Táthar do m'fheiceáil", "Beidh siad dá úsáid", "Bheifí dá rialúchán", "Bhíodh sí do bhualadh an fhir"? Odd examples, but we're talking grammatically here

We a pronoun is the object of the verbal noun. Example:
Tá sé am/ag mo/do mo bhualadh

never

Tá sé ag bualadh mé.

It is easier to consider the literal translation here.

Tá sé am/ag mo/do mo bhualadh = He is at my hitting.
Tá sé ag déanamh na hoibre = He is at the work's doing.

Finally! What the hell is up with eclipsis in predicative statements? "Seo an áit a ndéantar an-chuid botún". What is the urú on "déantar" referring to? Surely a feminine agent, "áit", should be "seo an áit a d[h]éantar..." before applying the dentals rule?

A verb is usually eclipsed after indirect relatives.

Su Campu

Eh...I never remember Irish being this complicated!!!

earwax_man

Is iad Aard 's Enkidu mo laochra gramadaí
Okay, so this leads me to the idea of the differentiation between the limits of VP and NP.
For example,

[in ionad [iarracht a dhéanamh cabhrú leis]]

...leads me to believe that complex prepositions allow no genitive as a post-object of the preposition whenever a VP is governing the object, yes? Correct me if I'm wrong

So...this would lead to:
- [Tar éis [an Ghaeilge a labhairt]]
- [Fearacht [an chabhair a thabhairt dó]]
- [Ar nós [an scannán a bhreathnú]]

...correct?

But what about the use of "Chun + Noun + Noun"? In Polish, for example, genitive can follow genitive in all VP and NP, nouns are governed by it's preceding case.
- "Wiele rodzajów czasowników" = "Wiele (+gen ["many"]) + Rodzaje (gen. plural "-ów" ["kind/type"]) + Czasowniki (gen. plural slenderisation & "-ów" ["verbs"]) = "Many kinds of verbs".

Another example in Polish:
"Od moich polskich błędów językowych" -> "From/Of my Polish linguistic errors" -> "Od [+gen] moich [gen. singular plural non virile of "mój" [my]] polskich [gen plural of polski [polish [adjective]]] błędów [gen. plural of błąd ["error"]] językowych [linguistic [adjective] [root is "język"]]

If one were to say this in Irish, would it be allowed to have two following genitive cases? "A lán saghsanna [gen. plural] briathra [gen. plural]"? Or should it be partive via the use of "de"? If so, why?

Irish is proving to be the most difficult language for me with regard to grammar because it's never taught like German, Finnish or any other language. Apparently people are supposed to be inspired to know constructions and grammatical points naturally. I learnt Polish, Slovak and many others myself from Skype and the internet, and I understand it better xD

Instead the first is lenited in the nominative and only the second is in the genitive. This is the so-called "functional genitive", the first noun is "functional" in genitive relation, but keeps the nominative form and is lenited.

Hmmm... Doink. That's from Lars Braesicke's website

What would the phrase be "to make smb do sth"? German: "Jmdn dazu bringen, etw zu machen"?

Such as, "he made me do it" ("er hat mich dazu gebracht, das zu machen"). Like, a weaker version of "to force" (Bhí sé do m'fhorsáil é a dhéanamh?) (Er hat mich gezwungen, das zu machen).

Gumbi

Sin a cheapas! :P Go raibh maith agat as an miniú ar aon nós; is iontach an tuiscint a bhfuil agat ar ghramadach na Gaeilge!

Enkidu, which dialects prefer not to use the genitive in such cases ("Ag déanamh do dhíchill")?

Enkidu

Gumbi wrote: »

Enkidu, which dialects prefer not to use the genitive in such cases ("Ag déanamh do dhíchill")?

The dialects of Connamara tend to leave the adjective uninflected, also Kerry to some extent. Also adding an adjective can often switch off the genitive in these dialects:

Táim ag bualadh an gharsúin

Táim ag bualadh an garsún beag (normally an gharsúin bhig)

Gumbi

Enkidu wrote: »

The dialects of Connamara tend to leave the adjective uninflected, also Kerry to some extent. Also adding an adjective can often switch off the genitive in these dialects:

Táim ag bualadh an gharsúin

Táim ag bualadh an garsún beag (normally an gharsúin bhig)

GRMA

pog it

Aard wrote: »

Oh dear, can of worms!!

@Pó;g it
If there was no "roinnt" in that sentence, then yes, there would be no TG. Note that there would be no TG expected anyway after "in ann", unlike compound prepositions like "in ionad". So:
"Ba cheart go mbeimid in ann cabhair a thabhairt duit."

When the qualifier "roinnt" is put in, "cabhair" takes TG as usual:
"Ba cheart go mbeimid in ann roinnt cabhrach a thabhairt duit."


"Roinnt cabhrach" is a noun phrase inside a verb phrase. Here, the noun "cabhair" is governed by "roinnt", while the noun phrase "roinnt cabhrach" as a whole is governed by the verb "tabhair".


---


To use my example of "after eating lunch" above, you'd have:
"tar éis lóin" > after lunch
"tar éis lón a ithe" > after eating lunch
"tar éis roinnt lóin a ithe" > after eating some lunch

The third sentence would be parsed as so:

[tar éis roinnt l&#243;in] a ithe


---


Hope that clears things up!

Ah cool, thanks for clearing that up, and sorry to gumbi! You're right about the noun phrase within the verb phrase. It's been a year since I looked at the grammar and am gone senile! thanks