More incompetent motorists than regular cyclists on Ireland's roads?

Iwannahurl

I'm away currently so I don't know whether this report has received any media attention.

According to a recent press release from the Road Safety Authority:

• 54331 motorists in Ireland are on their 3rd to 11th Learner Permit
• 34774 motorists are on their 4th-11th Learner Permit
• 43% of unqualified drivers break the law by driving unaccompanied
• 30% of unqualified drivers don't display an L plate.

To fail one driving test looks like misfortune, to fail two looks like carelessness, to fail three looks like incompetence. And so on...

All of which suggests to me that there are more failed motorists on Ireland's roads than there are regular cycle commuters.

Scary?

Jawgap

there should be a test for cyclists before they are permitted to take to the road - only then will we have comparable stats........


Anyway, passing the driving test doesn't make you a competent motorist, it just means you can handle a car / truck / bus in certain very contrived circumstances.

The mad thing about the test in this country is you can pass it in 1l Ford Fiesta then hop into an 1180hp Shelby Aero and off you go on the M50.......

endacl

Jawgap wrote: »

there should be a test for cyclists before they are permitted to take to the road - only then will we have comparable stats........


Anyway, passing the driving test doesn't make you a competent motorist, it just means you can handle a car / truck / bus in certain very contrived circumstances.

The mad thing about the test in this country is you can pass it in 1l Ford Fiesta then hop into an 1180hp Shelby Aero and off you go on the M50.......

If you could afford a shelby, why would you do your test in a fiesta...? :-)

adamski8

Iwannahurl wrote: »

To fail one driving test looks like misfortune, to fail two looks like carelessness, to fail three looks like incompetence. And so on...

All of which suggests to me that there are more failed motorists on Ireland's roads than there are regular cycle commuters.

Scary?

what does this have to do with the test? who says they have even taken the test?

dvntie

adamski8 wrote: »

Iwannahurl wrote: »

To fail one driving test looks like misfortune, to fail two looks like carelessness, to fail three looks like incompetence. And so on...

All of which suggests to me that there are more failed motorists on Ireland's roads than there are regular cycle commuters.

Scary?

what does this have to do with the test? who says they have even taken the test?

If you have your learner you have to take the test within 2 yrs (as far as I remember)
I passed first time due mainly to the amount of cycling I had done before I sat in the driver seat of a car

Jawgap

endacl wrote: »

If you could afford a shelby, why would you do your test in a fiesta...? :-)

exaggeration for the purposes of illustration;)

Can't see the tester getting into the Shelby - would you with someone on a learner's permit:eek:

doozerie

Jawgap wrote: »

Anyway, passing the driving test doesn't make you a competent motorist, it just means you can handle a car / truck / bus in certain very contrived circumstances.

I agree. Passing the test certainly requires that you convince the tester of your ability to control the car in certain situations plus that you have some consideration of other road users for the duration of test. That latter bit, demonstrating consideration, is an approach that some people seem able and willing to switch off at will. So, while the test should "catch" people who don't have basic driving skills, it's largely ineffective at catching those who simply don't seem to care about the impact of their actions behind the wheel and it is these people that pose the greatest danger.

I passed my driving test on my first attempt and with relatively little time behind the wheel in advance, demonstrating that you don't need great driving skills to pass. Amongst the things that I'd never done in a car prior to taking the test were overtaking a moving car, negotiating a packed car park, driving above 50km/h, etc., yet I drove away from the test centre as a fully authorised motorised user of the roads which seems very odd to me as these would be amongst what I would consider to be basic driving skills that everyone needs and should be able and required to demonstrate.

monkeypants

adamski8 wrote: »

what does this have to do with the test? who says they have even taken the test?

Good point. As far as I know, you can simply postpone/not turn up and just keep booking tests and applying for learner permits.

Wishbone Ash

dvntie wrote: »

If you have your learner you have to take the test within 2 yrs

To apply for a 3rd and subsequent permit one has to show evidence of applying for a test. The loop-hole is that one does not have to actually do the test - hence a large percentage of "no shows". I would favour a deposit system - pay €500 on top of the test cost. If one does the test the deposit is refunded.

Canis Lupus

It always makes me chuckle that a person can drive to a testing centre, fail a test to show them competent and then drive home...

Having said that I'd almost like to see something basic brought in for cyclists. I've seen some wobbly, haven't been on a bike for years and soon to be under the wheels of a lorry accidents waiting to happen in my time.

coastwatch

Canis Lupus wrote: »

It always makes me chuckle that a person can drive to a testing centre, fail a test to show them competent and then drive home...

Yep, a bit "irish". Kinda hope the same logic isn't used for trainee pilots :eek:

the_syco

Iwannahurl wrote: »

• 54331 motorists in Ireland are on their 3rd to 11th Learner Permit
• 34774 motorists are on their 4th-11th Learner Permit
• 43% of unqualified drivers break the law by driving unaccompanied
• 30% of unqualified drivers don't display an L plate.

[devils advocate]And how many will regularly break the red light? Hrm?[/devils advocate]

buffalo

the_syco wrote: »

[devils advocate]And how many will regularly break the red light? Hrm?[/devils advocate]

From what I see every morning and evening, a significant minority.

Iwannahurl

Jawgap wrote: »

there should be a test for cyclists before they are permitted to take to the road - only then will we have comparable stats........
Anyway, passing the driving test doesn't make you a competent motorist, it just means you can handle a car / truck / bus in certain very contrived circumstances.

The mad thing about the test in this country is you can pass it in 1l Ford Fiesta then hop into an 1180hp Shelby Aero and off you go on the M50.......

Such stats could not be meaningfully comparable, IMO, because motor vehicles and bicycles are very different modes of travel. You can pass the test in a 1.0 Ford Fiesta driving at, say, 50-80 km/h max and once you have your license start driving it, or a Shelby Aero, at much higher speeds.

Cycling is inherently safer. For example, the Dublin shared bike scheme has put large numbers of noob or occasional cyclists onto the city's streets and according to anecdotal reports many take a rather flexible approach to traffic law. Yet Dublin's roads are now the safest in Europe, it is claimed.

adamski8 wrote: »

what does this have to do with the test? who says they have even taken the test?

Fair point. My understanding was that you needed a Certificate of Test Failure (or whatever it's called officially) in order to apply for another Learner Permit. But perhaps there are ways around that, so these drivers' incompetence may not have been formally verified.

Ireland's roads are safer than they used to be, but I still find it astonishing that there are so many drivers out there boasting up to eleven or more Learner Permits. Does the same situation exist elsewhere in the EU?

doozerie

Iwannahurl wrote:

Yet Dublin's roads are now the safest in Europe, it is claimed.

This is a tangent to the thread I know but that article is a bizarre mix of stuff.

Mr Brett [head of RSA] said the reduction [in casualty numbers] was down to several issues including greater enforcement by the garda traffic corps, the ban on HGV trucks in the city centre and a huge increase in the volume of cyclists which tend to slow down motorists.

I've seen cyclists being classified as many things but being something "to slow down motorists" is a new one on me. That's certainly the view of some motorists mind you and I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at the RSA's weird take on cyclists generally.

Chief Superintendent Alan Reid of the Dublin Metropolitan Division said the controversial 30 kilometre enforcement zone in Dublin city centre was proving to be a success.

Really? When I cycle or drive along the quays I'm inevitably being passed out by the majority of motorists. Particularly when I'm in the car some of them are friendly enough to flash their lights and blow their horns at me - such adulation which makes me feel very popular indeed.

However, he said it was being implemented as a traffic calming measure rather than as an enforcement measure. “We’re looking for compliance strictly in that area,” he said. “I believe the 30 kilometre zone has been very helpful in focusing people’s minds as they move into the vulnerable area where pedestrian and pedal cyclists are meeting the car driver.”

To the first part: What? So you're not enforcing the 30kph limit or you are? I'm confused Ted.

To the second part: Ye wha'? In whose world view is the 30kph zone "the vulnerable area where pedestrian and pedal cyclists are meeting the car driver"? I meet the car driver as soon as I leave my house in the morning, and continue to meet him/her along my entire commute before I ever enter the 30kph zone 11km later - how exactly is my commute route different from the 30kph zone?

The campaign will be particularly focused on speeding especially in 30kph and 50kph zones and gardai on bicycles will enforce jaywalking particularly at busy junctions where pedestrians are likely to break the lights.

I like the idea that gardai will enforce jaywalking, that makes about as much sense as parts of the rest of the article.

DavyD_83

Jawgap wrote: »

Anyway, passing the driving test doesn't make you a competent motorist, it just means you can handle a car / truck / bus in certain very contrived circumstances.

I agree that passing the test does not make you a competent driver; but would think that the test should easily be passed by a competent driver.

Leading us to the conclusion that somebbody who has failed a number of these tests is quite possibly an incompetent driver.

For what it's worth I passed first time, and would prob not be classed as a competent driver (well, not by the OH at least), but would consider myself a very competent cyclist.

Jawgap

DavyD_83 wrote: »

I agree that passing the test does not make you a competent driver; but would think that the test should easily be passed by a competent driver.

Leading us to the conclusion that somebbody who has failed a number of these tests is quite possibly an incompetent driver.

For what it's worth I passed first time, and would prob not be classed as a competent driver (well, not by the OH at least), but would consider myself a very competent cyclist.

Jenson Button failed his driving test - having won the Ayrton Senna Memorial Cup, and the European Super A Championship - not sure if that makes him incompetent:D

Hmmzis

Jawgap wrote: »

Jenson Button failed his driving test - having won the Ayrton Senna Memorial Cup, and the European Super A Championship - not sure if that makes him incompetent:D

Yes, it does.

Being a good racing driver doesn't make one automatically a good driver on public roads. While it can help in certain situations, racing skills are utterly useless in general public road usage.

opti0nal

Jawgap wrote: »

Anyway, passing the driving test doesn't make you a competent motorist, it just means you can handle a car / truck / bus in certain very contrived circumstances.

Competence is not really the issue.

Attitude is more important.

kenmc

I think it's time to roll out the big guns then.

I want one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTQSWtK65PE

-PornStar-

kenmc wrote: »

I think it's time to roll out the big guns then.

I want one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTQSWtK65PE

I have something similar on my bike. Lipo powered, compressor driven, air horn. Buttons to activate it mounted on either side, near the hoods. It is ridiculously loud! Not for use on pedestrians obviously. But it definitely gets the attention of motorists. When they give their, what I assume to be, friendly toot behind me. I can respond in kind as they are passing.





Still need to shorten the external wires, just for tidiness sake.

Dawn Rider

Jawgap wrote: »

Anyway, passing the driving test doesn't make you a competent motorist, it just means you can handle a car / truck / bus in certain very contrived circumstances.

And on a particular day, as in, some would say they failed the test because they were 'unlucky'... Not realizing that a competent driver would respond to situations in an appropriate way.

As you said, it's daft that you can pass your basic test and head straight out onto the motorway. Which is why I prefer the German system in that regard.
One reason I heard we can't do compulsory motorway driving lessons is because not every county in Ireland has a motorway, and it would put those learner drivers at a disadvantage.

I also passed my test first time partly because of all the cycling I did before driving ie. learning road sense, R.O.R. ect. And, also because I knew if I failed the test it wouldn't effect me in the slightest as I could carry on driving until the re-sit.
I've met a few people who just use the test as a way of extending their provisional license, if they fail they rebook just before the license runs out.

In Germany, your driving instructor sits in the back seat during the test, and drives you home if you fail..... oh the shame!:o

Lusk Doyle

-PornStar- wrote: »

I have something similar on my bike. Lipo powered, compressor driven, air horn. Buttons to activate it mounted on either side, near the hoods. It is ridiculously loud! Not for use on pedestrians obviously. But it definitely gets the attention of motorists. When they give their, what I assume to be, friendly toot behind me. I can respond in kind as they are passing.





Still need to shorten the external wires, just for tidiness sake.

Hey pornstar, that's some horn you've got on you there!!!

studiorat

DavyD_83 wrote: »

I agree that passing the test does not make you a competent driver; but would think that the test should easily be passed by a competent driver.

I'm a competent driver. I haven't passed my test
1. Insurance company gave me wrong disk, I didn't notice. Test cancelled.
2. Wrong day.
3. Genuine fail. T junction, had right of way didn't use it.
4. Fail, brothers car, pissing rain, new area, missed a turn!!!
5. Indicator broke on way to centre.

I have a license to drive a 150mph motorbike. Probably 20 years driving on the road. Not including cycling.

Experience with vans, cars, bikes, bicycles. Simply too inconvenient to sit it again and my motor insurance would be much the same. So I don't bother.