Genderqueer,& Talking All That Jazz

VeganStephen

Hello there, I am new to the board here, it seems the journey I am on in life has led me to here.

Maybe I should start by very briefly sharing a little about who I am. I've always kicked against conformity.I celebrate diversity, people striving to forge a voice for themselves and people that value, cherish and nourish individuality and uniqueness both in themselves and in others. In parallel to this I very much believe in community, collective action, and organising for a better, fairer, and more just world. I am hugely proud to be a queer,music loving , politically active Marxist vegan (I know...so many labels!). I suppose in opening with this introduction it leads me to sharing my experience within the LGBT community, and where I fit in, or more pointedly where I feel I don't fit in.

I've never felt entirely comfortable in or very much part of mainstream LGBT culture. My views and opinions I will share are not in anyway meant to denigrate mainstream gay culture. For a start my taste in music is quite left of centre, from Rockabilly, Ska, New Wave and Indie. Even my dress sense which I take from the 50's Rockabilly look (complete with quiff), marks me out as different. My experience of the pub/club scene (when I did drink) was that the scene very much catered for the mainstream LGBT community. I can't recall ever being on a dancefloor in a gay club pogoing like it was the last night on earth,to Stiff Little Fingers "Alternative Ulster" (nor is it even likely today,I hazard to guess).

From a political perspective I have a passion for engaging in and campaigning on class based issues that not just affect the LGBT community but would affect the wider community at large as well (issues like the campaign against the Household Tax). Mentioning that issue is not designed to provoke a debate, I merely allude to it to make a point. That point being that I engage in wider struggles but have never really felt there is a tangible crossover of ideas that link LGBT rights issues with other worthy issues in the wider society. So I feel at times a political disconnect from the mainstream LGBT community.

Perhaps the most prevalent of all of the reasons that has led me here and ultimately to make this post lies in my quite recent discovery of the whole area of gender queer issues and all that comes with it. I never even knew the term until literally this week. It would detract from the rhythm of this particular opening contribution to the board if I were to talk in too much depth about my experiences growing up and my confusion about my sexual orientation. I think for now I would say that my sexual orientation (and the resulting confusion around it) created a lot of anxiety for me. I have always found the androgynous look in both males and females (apologies for being so gender specific) hugely attractive. I have never discussed this openly until quite recently.I also think because I was never able to articulate those feelings to myself (and not knowing until recently that such a community existed within the LGBT community), I was at a loss to feel part of anything within the community. I always felt I fell between two stools that I could neither articulate or share with others. Discovering as I did this week the board Genderfolk has been an epiphany and quite liberating.

So it was a combination of all the experiences above that led me to taking quite an extended break from the LGBT community (which I have come to realise was not healthy in overall self development, but that's where I was in life). I have taken major steps to end the isolation. I joined a couple of LGBT groups that have outdoor activities as a main focus, but once again I still feel on the fringes. I don't think that will ever really end, I'm far too independent minded to be part of the mainstream, but that's what makes me unique I guess. However the difference now is that I am now more confidently exploring my own needs, exerting myself and am striving to forge a path for myself where I can feel others can both identify with my story and equally I identify with their story. I deserve happiness, and I celebrate my stubborn, belligrent, fierce independence.

Finally, I would love to hear other members stories that either are or identify with genderqueers and androgynous types, who would equally like to get to know me a queer, music loving, Marxist vegan.

Sorry for the long winded post, but that's me.;)

shoegirl

Stephen, it's lovely to read such a thoughtful post on a Saturday morning. The gay world, particularly in Ireland, is often colonised by very rigid stereotypes so it is tough sometimes to be different, in particular I agree with you, that the lgbt community often miss the "bigger picture" in the world. For me this is especially evident in the very justified movement to legalise gay marriage with regard to parenting, as it's a problem for unmarried hetero families. Yet there is no visible effort whatsoever to build coalitions on this obvious cross community problem.

I do think it's an excellent thing to break away from the visible "scene." I did it myself 3 years ago in order to purge my life of people who were hangers on, not true friends. This was a valuable act which purged me emotional and psychologically of very draining scenarios, but it was and sometimes still is, difficult, as whenever I do go back, I sometimes find myself challenged by people who saw this as an insult. That can be awkward to handle, but remembering who true friends are moves things on.

There used to be a little bit of an alternative movement in the Dublin community, but I think from talking to people that a lot of this has demerged out to smaller social circles off scene, though a lot of people who used to be involved hang in the fetish scene. In my experience, the fetish and bdsm community has provided a warm welcome for lgbt folk (ESP gender different folk, interestingly enough). But it's not for everybody, you do see some things that push the boundaries!

Maybe it's time to start to get together as a grop and meet up socially? I am sure there are lots of folk out there who are on the fringe?

I do think it's important for us all, especially when we don't fit into mainstream neat categoriese, to build out own lives outside of that, in ways which meet our needs. It can be very challenging and isolating to do that, but there are lots of like minded people who don't lift the visible lgbt community and who like to do other things. Stephen, I wish you well!

VeganStephen

Hello Shoegirl, thank you for your very kind words on my contribution, and also for your thoughtful reply.

You articulate the point very well when you draw the comparisons between mainstream society and the issue of parenting which is shared by the gay community, yet the lack of a vision of commonality. I have no time for single issue campaigns as they are short sighted, and personally speaking are a wasted opportunity (I can't be doing with wasting potential allegiances).

Again I share your exasperation with feeling disenfranchised and having no visible means of identifying, associating, socialising and expressing oneself within a defined space for a legitimate subculture within the LGBT community.

It's one of the reasons I made my original post too Shoegirl, to see what might arise from exchanging thoughts with like minded individuals here. I too would like to meet others who share a similar outlook and value system to mine.

Thanks again for your considered reply.

Babybuff

I could have written that, well..with exception of the vegan/musical/ political persuasion part I'm eclectic in most things.
But I was only blogging the subject during week and writing about my own take on these issues so it's nice to see others out there who echo mine sentiments.
welcome aboard.

Chuchoter

To be perfectly honest, it seems like you're intentionally putting yourself out on the fringes. I think at the moment there's a movement to labeling every possible quirk about an individual and we have so many new terms that its impossible to co-ordinate them all. Don't overthink things so much and just be, you'll probably find a niche somewhere unexpected.

Babybuff

Can't speak for Stephen but for me it's genuinely a case of not having much in common with the mainstream crowd so never really felt like I fit in. I thought maybe it was because I was older finding it but then I realised it had little to do with age and more to do with personal taste. I flit between different spaces and people and can fit in quite easily in most of them but there is something about lgbt culture in that it never really made a dent on me. (I am drawn to individuals rather than modes of people as a unit)

VeganStephen

Thanks to you both Babybuff and Chuchother for your replies. I'd first like to respond to Chuchother and then to Babybuff.

I don't think your intention Churchother in your first sentence was to meant to be judgemental of me when you said "to be perfectly honest, it seems like you're intentionally putting yourself out on the fringes" so it is in good spirit that I reply to your opening remarks as positively and as constructively as I can.

The values, political convictions, and lifestyle I lead are quite legitimate. For instance Marxism is not simply a label. It is a recognised political ideology, which would have a diametrically opposed political ideology at the other end of the spectrum. This ideology helps me make sense of the world around me in economic, social and political terms,therefore I am proud to call myself a Marxist. My decision to become a vegan again is not simply to choose a label. It is a legitimately recognised dietary choice.My decision to become a vegan was based on a moral and ethical lifestyle choice, once again I am proud to call myself a vegan.

It has never been my intention to go out of my way to be on the fringes of the mainstream LGBT community (quite the reverse in fact). The main thrust of my opening contribution has been to recount my experiences of and within the mainstream LGBT community. It has been my experience that there does not seem to be a tangible space for LGBT''s whose lifestyle, views,opinions and orientation would be considered a subculture within a subculture. If I feel that way and that has been my experience then my feelings and experiences are quite valid.

If I may I'd like to draw your attention to an article written in an Irish punk fanzine by a queer punk who shares his thoughts, and experience of feeling alienated within the mainstream LGBT community. He is a fan of a particular genre of music called Queercore. What I found remarkable when reading it was that his story resonated with me in that it was quite similar to mine and my experiences.The article is entitled "queer thoughts of a new boy on the block" If your interested in reading it follow the link below (I've removed the www. as I am not sure the policy about hotlinking on the board)

loserdomzine.com/images/articles%20pdfs/Queer_Thoughts.pdf


I was very cognisant when I was composing my opening contribution of ensuring any view point I expressed and conclusion I arrived at was based directly on recounting my feelings, and experiences of engaging in mainstream LGBT culture. What I am finding ironic and refreshing is that others here seem to share a similar experience to mine.

I appreciate your kind words and your optimism in suggesting I will probably find a niche somewhere unexpected, I'm an optimist by nature myself and I live in hope.

I appreciate your contribution Babybuff (the world would be a dull and boring place if we all had the same interests). I would be genuinely interested in reading your blog if your willing to share it.

Babybuff

pm sent

VeganStephen

Thanks for the PM Babybuff. I will send you a PM in the morning as I am very sleepy right now, and a hurried PM to you now would be unfair on you.;)

fillefatale

I'd never heard of queercore! Thanks for the info!

I identify as queer, and I understand what you're saying. I feel isolated and on the fringes of the LGBT because I feel pressure to identify with one of those labels. I've never actively participated in any LGBT groups for that reason because my identity is fluid. I dunno, even in just the name LGBT - seeing as I don't fall into any of those categories, I feel uncomfortable.

Pedant

The LGBT community is as broad in its ideals as the straight community is. Whenever I hear something like "a representative of the LGBT community", I cringe. No one individual can represent the opinions of the LGBT community as a whole, in the same way as no one individual can represent the opinions of the straight community as a whole. The phrases "LGBT community" and "straight community" may even be fallacies in themselves as the spectrum of sexual orientation is so broad. One might argue that every human being has their own distinct sexual orientation, which mightn't at all be too far from the truth. In this regard, saying "the struggle for LGBT rights" may be properly rephrased as "the struggle for sexual and gender liberation". Personality, I find that associating some kinds of labels only creates more division. Though I'm not a total existentialist in this regard, I don't think some labels are altogether necessary.

Also, I don't believe in the legitimacy of any issue or ideology based on the amount of support it gets. Legitimacy should be based on adherence to reason and logic. As we live in a society with so many contrasting views, there are different levels of bias from different groups in favour or against any of those viewpoints being reasonable or logical. Therefore it is probably best to refrain from words such as "legitimate" or "illegitimate" unless absolutely necessary.

My own political leaning may be regarded as a fringe political view. I tend to gravitate towards libertarianism (I'm on the fence between minarchist and anarchist), free-market economics, etc... I don't intentionally wish to be pushed out on the fringe, it's just that these ideals make more sense to me. I don't claim my views to be legitimate or illegitimate. However, I certainly wouldn't be coerced into changing my views based on their popularity.

I don't necessarily agree with your idea that the improvement of the majority all at once, while disregarding minor issues, is any more legitimate than individuals focusing on minor issues. You mention "I engage in wider struggles but have never really felt there is a tangible crossover of ideas that link LGBT rights issues with other worthy issues in the wider society".

But what if, say, two groups of people with diametrically opposing economic views joined forces for a while to campaign on a social issue that they both agreed with. Evidently, you being a Marxist, me being a libertarian, we have very different views on many things but we probably agree when it comes to marriage equality and other LGBT issues, etc...

Say we united in a campaign for a short while promoting marriage equality (while in the meantime pursuing our own separate political interests). Then we might both agree that society would be a little better off if we united, rather than remain separate because we mightn't see eye-to-eye on other things. It is this idea of cooperation on individual issues that will ultimately better society, and this is not just in relation to LGBT issues.

toexpress

I can see the OP's point, for very different reasons. I would be conservative in my views politically and socially speaking so far less liberal and that tends to alienate you from a lot of other gay men and women as they claim to hold very liberal views.

I also don't really understand why some people seem to feel the need to grab a hold of every stereotype going and make themselves fit that mould.

So the point of what everyone seems to be saying here is that if people just took the time to figure out who they are as opposed to who society thinks they should be there might be far less intolerance in the community ...

Just a thought

shoegirl

Well out toexpress, I think there is a tendency to merge into the general expectation of the crowd. I would say that there has always been a maverick element in gay society, but the efforts t build community's tend to become ghettoes. I have found these extremely oppressive, for example going to linc in cork was probably the most hurtful and oppressive episode of my life as going there seemed to simply be a legitimised opportunity for the women there to judge me for not being just like them. A meet up group perhaps?

Babybuff

shoegirl wrote: »

Well out toexpress, I think there is a tendency to merge into the general expectation of the crowd. I would say that there has always been a maverick element in gay society, but the efforts t build community's tend to become ghettoes. I have found these extremely oppressive, for example going to linc in cork was probably the most hurtful and oppressive episode of my life as going there seemed to simply be a legitimised opportunity for the women there to judge me for not being just like them. A meet up group perhaps?

I was fortunate enough to have coffee with a boardsie recently which was noice and the topic of a meet up has been discussed a fair bit around here too but as I can only do day trips to Dublin at the minute I'm wondering would anybody else be up for getting together for Tea tea or coffee sometime.
Rather than organising something formal I think it would be easier to just shout out here if and when one or another of us is around and we can pm each other and organise amongst ourselves if it's convenient.

VeganStephen

Thanks to everyone thus far in making a contribution to my post. It's been reassuring for me to find others who share a similar outlook and my own experience has struck a chord with others. I really do appreciate the replies.

I've been away for a few days, Killarney to be exact , so apologies for the late input. I was very fortunate to have two days of quite literally glorious and warm sunshine. A 10k run in Killarney National Park in early morning sunshine accompanied by the dawn chorus is life affirming. And a walk in the Gap of Dunloe on a sunny day is something to behold!:cool:

I'd like to add my name to the list of those who would be willing to meet informally over a tea or coffee, it sounds like a great idea. I'll PM both of you Babybuff and Shoegirl (perhaps you both might know of others here that might be interested in meeting up).