Nationalist Parties in Northern Ireland

BOHtox

Why isn't there a nationalist party with right leaning ideology in Northern Ireland?

Sinn Fein would be far left and the SDLP would be centre left and they would be the two nationalist parties. Fianna Fail has also been registered since 2007 but I don't think they're making many inroads and their policies of large government, large public sector and high welfare would not be right leaning policies either.

So I ask, is there room for a right of centre nationalist party?


and would it do well if it was set up?

discuss...

edit: economically right. Doesn't matter about social policies right now but just centre right economically.

southsiderosie

Not to be pedantic, but what kind of 'right' do you mean - economically right wing, or economically and socially right-wing?

Assuming that you mean solely economic, I wouldn't call any of NI's main parties right wing! Alliance would be the most market-oriented, but they don't technically fit the two-camps dichotomy.

Dubhlinner

Stormont is just a pretend government. they have no control over raising taxes so there's no incentive to be right or left wing there.

Rebelheart

BOHtox wrote: »

Why isn't there a nationalist party with right leaning ideology in Northern Ireland?

Sinn Fein would be far left and the SDLP would be centre left and they would be the two nationalist parties. Fianna Fail has also been registered since 2007 but I don't think they're making many inroads and their policies of large government, large public sector and high welfare would not be right leaning policies either.

So I ask, is there room for a right of centre nationalist party?


and would it do well if it was set up?

discuss...

edit: economically right. Doesn't matter about social policies right now but just centre right economically.

After centuries of persecution of the Irish in Ireland by the British colonial set-up why would any self-respecting Irish person with a sense of our own history and culture take the soup and support neo-nuts, be they those lunatic "libertarians" in WASP land or the xenophobic anti-Irish British Tory party?

Fúck me; life is too short for selling one's soul for some ephemeral material advancement. We Irish have much more to offer by own own traditions rather than fitting into these WASP right-wing traditions, all of which rest upon an imperialist anti-Irish tradition and all its dehumanisation.

K-9

Rebelheart wrote: »

After centuries of persecution of the Irish in Ireland by the British colonial set-up why would any self-respecting Irish person with a sense of our own history and culture take the soup and support neo-nuts, be they those lunatic "libertarians" in WASP land or the xenophobic anti-Irish British Tory party?

Fúck me; life is too short for selling one's soul for some ephemeral material advancement. We Irish have much more to offer by own own traditions rather than fitting into these WASP right-wing traditions, all of which rest upon an imperialist anti-Irish tradition and all its dehumanisation.

WASP?

BOHtox

K-9 wrote: »

WASP?

White Anglo Saxon Protestant I think

Suryavarman

BOHtox wrote: »

White Anglo Saxon Protestant I think

Which is a bit of an odd description considering a large number of libertarians (maybe even the majority) would be atheists. And in Ireland those that are religious would more than likely be Roman Catholics. O well I guess WASA or WASC just don't roll off the tongue that well.

fasttalkerchat

Traditionally nationalist support came from the Irish working class. There would be a few people with right wing ideologies in favour of a united Ireland but they wouldn't be made welcome in either of the 2 parties.

southsiderosie

Rebelheart wrote: »

After centuries of persecution of the Irish in Ireland by the British colonial set-up why would any self-respecting Irish person with a sense of our own history and culture take the soup and support neo-nuts, be they those lunatic "libertarians" in WASP land or the xenophobic anti-Irish British Tory party?

Fúck me; life is too short for selling one's soul for some ephemeral material advancement. We Irish have much more to offer by own own traditions rather than fitting into these WASP right-wing traditions, all of which rest upon an imperialist anti-Irish tradition and all its dehumanisation.

What are you on about? Adopting market-oriented policies is 'British' all of a sudden?

The states that are truly sovereign are the ones who manage their internal affairs in a way that does not invite outside interference. This has nothing to do with neo-liberalism or Britishness, and everything to do with politics. Small countries like Denmark and Singapore manage to be involved in international markets and don't have the IMF banging on the door - Singapore, in particular, has managed to be both pro-markets externally and very focused on internal nation-building simultaneously. Why can't Northern Ireland (and for that matter, Ireland) do the same?

Also, nationalists in other stateless regions don't seem to have a problem with being pro-business: the Basques are a case in point. While the Basque nationalist left made a strong showing in the last round of regional elections, for most of the region's modern history the pro-business Basque National Party has dominated regional politics, and even the current Socialist government acknowledges that no large Basque party would change the region's pro-business policies which have served them well for over a century. The great irony here is that while the Basques have the wealth, infrastructure, and dare I say political maturity that would enable them to make a clean break from Spain, they do not have the legal or constitutional means to do so. On the other hand, Northern Ireland has the constitutional means, but it is economically backwards, and the Republic is in no position to absorb a broke province; as a practical matter, leaving the UK would be devastating to the North's economy and Ireland cannot make up the difference (and will not be able to for a while).

So to go back to the OP, I have no idea why more nationalist parties have not shifted somewhat to the right on economic issues to at least the point where they would be seen as business and investment friendly. Because despite the romantic notions underlying nationalism, the economic realities are going to play a key role when and how the region's citizens vote on reunification, and I would wager the pro-Ireland vote would be an easier pill to swallow if the North was not a fiscal millstone. Nationalists who are serious about political independence should also be serious about fiscal independence, and that is going to require more openness to market-oriented policies - something that even a cursory glance at Sinn Fein's economic proposals makes clear is not on the agenda.

K-9

BOHtox wrote: »

White Anglo Saxon Protestant I think

Ah right. Thought it might have in some way clarified the post, I'm more lost now.

Probably too simple but N.I. is dependent on subsidies so arguing for right wing economics kind of is arguing to bite the hand that feeds us.

Republican and Loyalist groups tend to be Socialist, though I'm sure they'd argue about the type of Socialism. I always thought Belfast would have been very like Liverpool post partition, all things being equal, which of course it never was.

Richard

K-9 wrote: »

Republican and Loyalist groups tend to be Socialist, though I'm sure they'd argue about the type of Socialism. I always thought Belfast would have been very like Liverpool post partition, all things being equal, which of course it never was.

Out of interest, how do you mean not "Like Liverpool"? I think Belfast is quite like Liverpool - the influx of Irish there (both Catholic and Protestant) saw to that. Go to the Everton area around 12th July and you'll see bunting, flags and they have Orange marches in several parts of Liverpool.

In terms of the original question, nationalist parties (afaik) want corporation tax devolved to NI so that it can be reduced. Isn't corporation tax reduction quite right-wing, economically?

goose2005

Suryavarman wrote: »

Which is a bit of an odd description considering a large number of libertarians (maybe even the majority) would be atheists. And in Ireland those that are religious would more than likely be Roman Catholics. O well I guess WASA or WASC just don't roll off the tongue that well.

And most of the Protestants in NI are Scots in origin, not Anglo-Saxon.

laoch na mona

sinn fein aren't far right

southsiderosie

Richard wrote: »

In terms of the original question, nationalist parties (afaik) want corporation tax devolved to NI so that it can be reduced. Isn't corporation tax reduction quite right-wing, economically?

I'm open to correction, but my reading of that was the underlying logic on the nationalist side was harmonization with the Republic's tax policies, rather than some broader commitment to market-oriented policies. It's a bit of an outlier in terms of nationalist fiscal and tax policies, and also a bit cheeky considering that NI's politicians want to undercut London on tax policy, yet are totally reliant on re-distribution of national tax resources from London. If NI were a tax-neutral or net contributing entity (like the Basque Country), then they would have more of a leg to stand on here (in terms of devolution) for purely economic (rather than political) reasons.

Richard

southsiderosie wrote: »

I'm open to correction, but my reading of that was the underlying logic on the nationalist side was harmonization with the Republic's tax policies, rather than some broader commitment to market-oriented policies.

It's true that Sinn Fein, at least, aren't market economists. But I dont think that it's just about tax harmonisation, as you don't see the, clamouring for other harmonisation, such as with VAT. Indeed, Gerry Adams showed a lack of knowledge on this issue a few years ago.

Border-Rat

Rebelheart wrote: »

After centuries of persecution of the Irish in Ireland by the British colonial set-up why would any self-respecting Irish person with a sense of our own history and culture take the soup and support neo-nuts, be they those lunatic "libertarians" in WASP land or the xenophobic anti-Irish British Tory party?

Fúck me; life is too short for selling one's soul for some ephemeral material advancement. We Irish have much more to offer by own own traditions rather than fitting into these WASP right-wing traditions, all of which rest upon an imperialist anti-Irish tradition and all its dehumanisation.

European Nationalism is largely Catholic-based and has historically not gotten along with WASP-Jingoism. You might have noticed, a Continental War was fought between the two.

HamletOrHecuba

Border-Rat wrote: »

European Nationalism is largely Catholic-based and has historically not gotten along with WASP-Jingoism. You might have noticed, a Continental War was fought between the two.

Anyone who is a fan of the "Glorious Revolution"/Inglorious coup d'etat cannot be considered authentically Right in my opinion.