Hagler vs Ward @ 168 lbs

walshb

Who wins?

Andre Ward is without doubt a talent. Neat boxer, tough, takes a good shot, great tactical fighter, good on the inside, fast, lovely feet and can fight and box. His stamina is very good too. Now, over 12 rds who wins this? I think Ward's speed, skills, and overall talent cause Hagler big problems. Also, he is that little bit bigger too. Plus, he is very slippy and elusive when he needs to be.

I may go with Ward on points here. I don't see anywhere where Hagler can exploit this guy to win.

walshb

Oh, and he's technically better too:D

boxer.fan

This is a tricky one I reckon. Ward shows a lot of intelligence & strength in the ring & has all the attributes of an elite champion. Marvelous Marvin may struggle at 168lb, but his solid defence, aggression & fitness may just get him a points decision.

walshb

boxer.fan wrote: »

This is a tricky one I reckon. Ward shows a lot of intelligence & strength in the ring & has all the attributes of an elite champion. Marvelous Marvin may struggle at 168lb, but his solid defence, aggression & fitness may just get him a points decision.

Thing is, Ward also has the fitness, and everything else. This fight will be won and lost by landed shots. I don;t think stamina will be a major factor, as both men were well conditioned. I think Ward's speed, and slippiness and accurate punching will outscore Marvin, plus, on the inside he is strong enough and rugged enough and busy enough and effective enough to win. He to me is a more rounded and complete fighter.

Maravilla33

I'm finding this one tough to call. I've been impressed with Ward up to now but there's a couple of reasons I give him a chance in this one. Firstly there's his size. Marvin although muscular and perfectly conditioned wasn't a big middleweight and even though its just 8lbs above his natural weight I think it would put him at a disadvantage. I never really thought he had the frame to move up in weight but of course super middle wasn't really an option in his day. I also think he looked at his best when his opponent took the fight to him. I've seen Ward be cautious and clever and I've also seen him bully and rough people up so I think it depends on how he fights. Hagler I think struggled a bit when someone stood of him like against Duran and Leonard and Ward would trouble him if he did this. I also think he may have the size and strength to rough up Hagler if he decided to but this might prove risky or backfire even if Hagler handled the extra 8lbs well.

In saying that Hagler is still Hagler. He has the all round game and ring smarts to take the centre of the ring and outbox Ward. I think Hagler definitely has more stamina and I think Ward may wilt if a lot of pressure is exerted on him. Even against Froch in a fight that Ward dominated he still seemed to get tired late on and take a breather. I also don't think Ward can hurt Hagler whereas I can see Marvin rocking Ward and even knocking him down. Its very close either way but I'm gonna go for Hagler on points in a scrappy, messy fight.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Oh, and he's technically better too:D

I know it was a joke an all but it is actually true, Hagler is Deadly but Ward would be a better technician.

I also would find this hard to score but think Ward might be a bit too elusive for Hagler if he fought smart.

walshb

Great breakdown, and the size is a key I feel. I can't see Marvin outboxing Ward from the outside, and Ward will not chase Marvin, where Marvin is at his best. Ward will be slippy, neat and almost spoiling here. Bigger, faster, cuter I think, plus the toughness and chin to do it for 12 rds.

Maravilla33

walshb wrote: »

Great breakdown, and the size is a key I feel. I can't see Marvin outboxing Ward from the outside, and Ward will not chase Marvin, where Marvin is at his best. Ward will be slippy, neat and almost spoiling here. Bigger, faster, cuter I think, plus the toughness and chin to do it for 12 rds.

I should probably add if its over 15 rounds I'd favour Hagler. Over 12 I lean back towards Ward. Its a tough one you've given me a headache here to be honest :eek:

walshb

Maravilla33 wrote: »

I should probably add if its over 15 rounds I'd favour Hagler. Over 12 I lean back towards Ward. Its a tough one you've given me a headache here to be honest :eek:

I assume over 15 you are thinking of Hagler finishing stronger and being fitter? But, that really isn't fair to Andre, who competes in this 12 rds era. I am sure if he had to and if he specifically trained for 15 rds that he could well be up for it. 12 or 15, where both are prepared, I will still go with Ward.

Maravilla33

walshb wrote: »

I assume over 15 you are thinking of Hagler finishing stronger and being fitter? But, that really isn't fair to Andre, who competes in this 12 rds era. I am sure if he had to and if he specifically trained for 15 rds that he could well be up for it. 12 or 15, where both are prepared, I will still go with Ward.

I'm not 100% convinced about Ward's stamina yet. I'm not sure if he's comfortable fighting at any pace for 12 rounds yet so wouldn't fancy him over 15. Now it may be hes so dominant that he can afford to take breaks here and there but I've noticed him slow down and take breaks during fights. It may be nothing but just a black mark i have against him at the moment. I've no question marks over Hagler's stamina.

Really do think Ward looks good though.

boxer.fan

When considering this match up I look at some of Ward's past opponents & I see Hagler beating them too. This is one of the best hypothetical match ups i've seen on this forum.

walshb

boxer.fan wrote: »

When considering this match up I look at some of Ward's past opponents & I see Hagler beating them too. This is one of the best hypothetical match ups i've seen on this forum.

I think Hagler eats Froch, AA, Kessler, Green, Taylor, Dirrell. Ward is just a class act. A class above all them, and the perfect blend of size, speed, talent, tactics, chin, stamina, feet and all around technicality to really match up well vs. Hagler.

Big Ears

Hagler fought in the days of same day weigh ins, he'd have probably been a division lighter with 24-36 hours before weigh ins. Hence we've an exceptional Light-Middleweight vs an exceptional Super-Middleweight.

Even if size wasn't an issue, Ward may be good enough to better him anyway.

walshb

Same day or not, Hagler was a solid and ripped 160. He was a MW, today or in 1980. I think he could accommodate the extra 8 lbs here and still be very hard to beat. As I said, I don't feel any of Ward's victims beat him.

Henno30

How do people see Ward getting to the next level? I think he has the potential to be a real superstar but he'll need to make big fights. His style might not always be the most fan friendly, but he's intelligent, articulate, a complete natural on the tv screen, and a real clean cut family man as well. If he could get a bigger profile the sky would be the limit for him.

sxt

walshb wrote: »

I think Hagler eats Froch, AA, Kessler, Green, Taylor, Dirrell. Ward is just a class act. A class above all them, and the perfect blend of size, speed, talent, tactics, chin, stamina, feet and all around technicality to really match up well vs. Hagler.

Then Joe Calzaghe eats Hagler ,and Roy Jones completely devours Hagler

walshb

sxt wrote: »

Then Joe Calzaghe eats Hagler ,and Roy Jones completely devours Hagler

How do you get to that conclusion? Not saying either Calzaghe and Jones cannot trouble or beat Hagler, but devour him?

sxt

walshb wrote: »

How do you get to that conclusion? Not saying either Calzaghe and Jones cannot trouble or beat Hagler, but devour him?

You perfectly described why Joe Calzaghe would beat Hagler in bold above . You were describing the attributes and skills needed to beat Hagler , and Calzaghe ticks all those boxes

walshb

sxt wrote: »

You perfectly described why Joe Calzaghe would beat Hagler in bold above . You were describing the attributes and skills needed to beat Hagler , and Calzaghe ticks all those boxes

I see. But your reference to "devour," threw me. No, Calzaghe and Hagler make for a very close and tough fight. No devouring IMO.

Maravilla33

Henno30 wrote: »

How do people see Ward getting to the next level? I think he has the potential to be a real superstar but he'll need to make big fights. His style might not always be the most fan friendly, but he's intelligent, articulate, a complete natural on the tv screen, and a real clean cut family man as well. If he could get a bigger profile the sky would be the limit for him.

Thats a good question because I'm not sure how he does get to the next level. Here you have an unbeaten Olympic gold medalist who has already beaten most of what was a stacked division rather easily and yet I'd say a lot of casual fans hadn't even heard of him before the Froch fight.

He's obviously very talented but he can be slightly boring in the ring and is pretty dull out of it. He'll have to fight Bute after Bute beats Froch (which he will rather easily imo) I'm a bit of a Bute fan but struggle to see him beating Ward. I heard Chad Dawson say he wants to fight him which would be a tough fight and a real test but will it increase his profile? Dawsons even more dull. I just don't see how Ward makes it to the next level. He's got the talent but not really the style or the personality to be a massive star.

Maravilla33

walshb wrote: »

I see. But your reference to "devour," threw me. No, Calzaghe and Hagler make for a very close and tough fight. No devouring IMO.

Also have to add that we're comparing Hagler who wasn't a big middle against 2 of the best super middles ever here. Even with the size difference I don't think anybody "devours" Hagler. He's too tough, versatile and skilled to be devoured. He might get beat but his opponent will always know he's been in a fight.

Kess73

Peak Hagler wins it for me.

The Hagler that faced Duran, Hearns, Hamsho (2nd fight), Leonard and Mugabi would have had problems with Ward as he had slowed down a hell of a lot at that stage and he altered his style somewhat to compensate for this along with his stamina not being as good.

But Peak Hagler (from '77 to '82 imo) was a different beast and had the speed to neutralise Ward's slippiness. He also had the accuracy and workrate that would allow him to wear down Ward.

Would not be an easy fight, but I think peak Hagler gets a late stoppage win over Ward.

walshb

Kess73 wrote: »

Peak Hagler wins it for me.

The Hagler that faced Duran, Hearns, Hamsho (2nd fight), Leonard and Mugabi would have had problems with Ward as he had slowed down a hell of a lot at that stage and he altered his style somewhat to compensate for this along with his stamina not being as good.

But Peak Hagler (from '77 to '82 imo) was a different beast and had the speed to neutralise Ward's slippiness. He also had the accuracy and workrate that would allow him to wear down Ward.

Would not be an easy fight, but I think peak Hagler gets a late stoppage win over Ward.

To me Hagler was at peak around 1980. His title win vs. Minter was superb, and this guy will be hell for Ward. Thing is, Ward is a lot trickier than a Minter, bigger, slippier and a better all around boxer. Hell of a fight.

Henno30

Ward vs Dawson in the works for September apparently - http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/7916213/chad-dawson-andre-ward-bout-works

Jayob10

Joe Ward beats Marvin Hagler every day of the week

Maravilla33

Henno30 wrote: »

Ward vs Dawson in the works for September apparently - http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/7916213/chad-dawson-andre-ward-bout-works

Good fight but will be a horrible clash of styles and not easy on the eye. Hope its at light heavy though. I would imagine it would be easier for Ward to move up than Chad to come down. Hope its not in Oakland either. Its about time Ward moved about a bit even if its just back to Atlantic City. Problem is as talented as they both are neither have a high profile or exciting style and are dull as anything outside the ring. While boxing fans will appreciate its a good fight it won't bring either to a wider audience and the build up will be sleep inducing.

Kess73

walshb wrote: »

To me Hagler was at peak around 1980. His title win vs. Minter was superb, and this guy will be hell for Ward. Thing is, Ward is a lot trickier than a Minter, bigger, slippier and a better all around boxer. Hell of a fight.

Yep a hell of a fight is exactly would it would be. It is a match up between two fighters who at their peaks have a mix of world class attributes. We could probably sit down for an hour to debate how one would counter the other in each department and each side would be able to put forward totally valid arguements.

I just happen to think that Hagler, based on his qualities when he was at his peak along with the wealth of ring experience he had built up at that point, would shade it late on, but I can easily think of many strong arguements as to why Ward could shade it late on as well.


I used to have Hagler-Monzon as one of my dream fantasy fights, but Hagler-Ward pushes it close as a dream fight.

Maravilla33

Kess73 wrote: »

I used to have Hagler-Monzon as one of my dream fantasy fights, but Hagler-Ward pushes it close as a dream fight.

Who do you think would take this one.

I wouldn't be surprised to see either man's hand raised but I'd be leaning towards Monzon. Can see him using his jab and great control of range to win on the outside and hes one of the few with the strength and ability to match Marv on the inside. Neither man is going to hurt the other so Monzon in a close points decision for me.

walshb

I will take a peak Hagler over a peak Monzon. To me, Monzon has not met anyone close to Hagler's ability to box and brawl, power, ferocity, workrate and toughness and chin.

One could say that Hagler hasn't met anyone like Monzon too? True, but Hagler brings more difference to this match. I see him making this an inside war, one that he is better at, busier, tougher, heavier hitting. If Hagler is patient and tries to outbox from the outside he could lose. I see Marvin pressing the action, keeping this as a phone booth fight and being overall too busy and fierce for Monzon. Marvin has the better array of punches; this will be key.

Kess73

Hagler for me as well over Monzon, but it would have been one hell of a scrap that would at least be going into the later rounds if not to a points finish.

Henno30

Would Hagler be juiced?