Labour Court ruling on CIDs at Trinity College...

Dan_Solo

Does anyone know any more about this case? It seems TCD tried to release some workers who have these "Contracts of Indefinite Duration" but the Labour Court told them it was illegal under the Croke Park agreement.
Wouldn't this make these "CIDs" technically unfireable, i.e. permanent staff?

antoobrien

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Does anyone know any more about this case? It seems TCD tried to release some workers who have these "Contracts of Indefinite Duration" but the Labour Court told them it was illegal under the Croke Park agreement.
Wouldn't this make these "CIDs" technically unfireable, i.e. permanent staff?

As I understand it these people have contracts with no termination date in them. That effectively makes them permanent staff

Dan_Solo

It's a strange one, as all universities put anybody who's been on contract more than 5 years into the CID bracket. If this Labour Court ruling means they effectively cannot be fired, there's quite a few new permanent public sector workers just appointed.

Padraig Mor

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It's a strange one, as all universities put anybody who's been on contract more than 5 years into the CID bracket. .

LOL - you're kidding right? Most of them will only give you a CID following a Rights Commissioner decision, an appeal to the Labour Court and perhaps an appeal to the High Court.

Dan_Solo

Padraig Mor wrote: »

LOL - you're kidding right? Most of them will only give you a CID following a Rights Commissioner decision, an appeal to the Labour Court and perhaps an appeal to the High Court.

Not kidding TBH. I know lots of people who have them. They're definitely CID, not permanent staff. It's the latter you need to prostrate yourself before Mr Noonan to get.

hardCopy

I thought it was already the case that if you have 4 years unbroken employment you automatically become permanent?

Dan_Solo

hardCopy wrote: »

I thought it was already the case that if you have 4 years unbroken employment you automatically become permanent?

Used to be years ago I think. Now it's this CID thing. Was dreamed up by some lawyer I'd imagine to try to squirm out of legal obligations such as this one...

Padraig Mor

I think only Trinity gives out CIDs automatically to qualifying staff (when talking about researchers anyway) after the four years. Other universities most emphatically do not (I know this from bitter personal experience). There SHOULD be no difference between CID and permanent staff - 'contract of indefinite duration' is simply the legal term that was hammered together to define permanent contract. However the universities have made it clear that they will continue to treat CID staff as second rate employees, and will attempt to leave them go at the end of a particular funding contract, at less favourable redundancy terms than 'proper' permanent staff.

To avoid all this, at least one university has now introduced a 'career ladder' (LOL) for researchers whereby they are kicked out before they gain CID entitlement (despite this being illegal under legislation).

Godge

Rather than just posting assertions about what people think is happening, would it not be better if people backed up their views with relevant case law or extracts from legislation.

Here is one link that has a lot of cases relevant to this discussion about how, when, where and why you can get a CID and what they mean:

http://9thlevel.ie/university-law/case-law/

Another good source is the Labour Court website

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labour.nsf/lookuppagelink/home

Finally, here is a copy of the legislation itself:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0029/index.html

Trhiggy83

Anyone know if TCD are going to appeal this decision on a point of law to the High Court.

Who pays the fees if its brought to the high court?

ionapaul

Godge wrote: »

Rather than just posting assertions about what people think is happening, would it not be better if people backed up their views with relevant case law or extracts from legislation.

Here is one link that has a lot of cases relevant to this discussion about how, when, where and why you can get a CID and what they mean:

http://9thlevel.ie/university-law/case-law/

Another good source is the Labour Court website

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labour.nsf/lookuppagelink/home

Finally, here is a copy of the legislation itself:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0029/index.html

I read one of the reports there and it mentioned that lack of funding cannot be used as one of the 'objective grounds' for not converting fixed-term contracts (after 4 years total employment under them have passed) to CID, as 'lack of funding' is something which every single employer has to deal with at the end of the day, and as such is nothing special. Don't suppose anyone else can comment on this?

My GF might benefit if this is the case, as she's been working on fixed-term contracts for 5 years on a project which is not really well defined in terms of completion objectives, and which her employer hopes to continue with if funding is allocated. I'll have to check her most recent contract and look over the 'objective grounds' listed in it to see if the employer is using a loophole to circumvent the Croke Park Agreement (and thumb its nose at workers' rights, probably more of a problem!).

Trhiggy83

http://www.universitytimes.ie/?p=7908

Not a bad read

Godge

ionapaul wrote: »

I read one of the reports there and it mentioned that lack of funding cannot be used as one of the 'objective grounds' for not converting fixed-term contracts (after 4 years total employment under them have passed) to CID, as 'lack of funding' is something which every single employer has to deal with at the end of the day, and as such is nothing special. Don't suppose anyone else can comment on this?

My GF might benefit if this is the case, as she's been working on fixed-term contracts for 5 years on a project which is not really well defined in terms of completion objectives, and which her employer hopes to continue with if funding is allocated. I'll have to check her most recent contract and look over the 'objective grounds' listed in it to see if the employer is using a loophole to circumvent the Croke Park Agreement (and thumb its nose at workers' rights, probably more of a problem!).

It is quite possible that she has a case. It is not possible to be more definitive without seeing the contract as the Fixed Term Act is an individual rights-based piece of legislation and not all situations are the same.

However, have a look at the Labour Court website and read some of the cases under the Fixed Term Act and you will get a better idea of where she stands. Even better, if she is in a public sector organisation, join the union and get them to raise your case.

Godge

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

Anyone know if TCD are going to appeal this decision on a point of law to the High Court.

Who pays the fees if its brought to the high court?

Don't know, haven't seen the case details yet. Was the case under the FTA or under the Croke Park Agreement?

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

http://www.universitytimes.ie/?p=7908

Not a bad read

Very good read, still think we are missing some parts of the puzzle.

Dan_Solo

Story run in the Indo today.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/trinity-college-ordered-to-reinstate-axed-staff-3097536.html

Dan_Solo

Padraig Mor wrote: »

To avoid all this, at least one university has now introduced a 'career ladder' (LOL) for researchers whereby they are kicked out before they gain CID entitlement (despite this being illegal under legislation).

The name "UCD" was changed to "at least one university" in this post to protect the guilty.:D