Heifer in calf

1chippy

sold a heifer a few months back. she was a heifer we intended bulling but hadnt met the weight. sold her anyway and got a call last week to tell us she had justed calved. The calf was dead and would we come pick her up. She has just turned 15 months:eek:
we took the heifer back as shes a nice one, however where did we stand. I know you have to take one back if she is in calf, however should we not have had the oportunity to calve the heifer our selves. the heifer calved herself, no c section. doesnt seem a bother on her now.
I asked the farmer (fattens heifers) did he have much of this happening and he said he had a couple this year and had sold them all with calves at foot and they had worked out pretty profitable.
did we have to take the heifer back, given the fact we were not given the oportunity to calve her.
Now we had no problem taking her back and its more of insight into what we had to do or should have done.

Bizzum

1chippy wrote: »

sold a heifer a few months back. she was a heifer we intended bulling but hadnt met the weight. sold her anyway and got a call last week to tell us she had justed calved. The calf was dead and would we come pick her up. She has just turned 15 months:eek:
we took the heifer back as shes a nice one, however where did we stand. I know you have to take one back if she is in calf, however should we not have had the oportunity to calve the heifer our selves. the heifer calved herself, no c section. doesnt seem a bother on her now.
I asked the farmer (fattens heifers) did he have much of this happening and he said he had a couple this year and had sold them all with calves at foot and they had worked out pretty profitable.
did we have to take the heifer back, given the fact we were not given the oportunity to calve her.
Now we had no problem taking her back and its more of insight into what we had to do or should have done.

I know where you're coming from alright. It happened me once. The mart rang and informed me a heifer I sold was incalf. I took her back and she calved herself. I can't recall the exact financial arrangement. I think I paid him the price he paid for the heifer and the cost of wintering her.
It seems in your case the lad was hedging his bets. Live heifer/calf and no hassle. Dead calf and it's your problem.
Did you have to pay him for wintering the heifer too?

leg wax

i would have no problem taking 1 back before she calved but to only tell you after she has lost the calf he can go fcuk himself,hes only a chancer:mad:

whelan1

the fact he didnt tell you before she calved would annoy me, its not as if he didnt notice her springing.. i think if you are selling heifers again it would be worth your while to scan them before you sell them just to be sure

blue5000

To be honest chippy I don't think you have a leg to stand on, Ok this guy should have told you sooner that she was in calf, that's all he did wrong in this case. You sold him a heifer that wasn't declared in calf.

snowman707

blue5000 wrote: »

To be honest chippy I don't think you have a leg to stand on, Ok this guy should have told you sooner that she was in calf, that's all he did wrong in this case. You sold him a heifer that wasn't declared in calf.

yes he does, he should have been informed sooner and has no obligation to take heifer back when she has calved , been there and done that with a bollix of dealer from west limerick years ago ,

as leg wax says this guy looks like a chancer & should be told go fcuk himself

Bizzum

Am I the only one getting confused by Fred Flintstone when Blue and Snowman posts follow each other?:)

bob charles

Lads the seller is completely in the wrong as you sold goods that were falsely advertised. We get between 10 and 20 of this bull**** every year and it really gets my goat up. We usually charge 150 to 200 euro for the hassle and the loss as the animal now is only worth cow price and usually the difference is around 150e. It seems to be the same farmers all the time. Of the 10 of these beef heifers that have had calves last winter we lost 5 so far
- born dead X 2
-born and died within hours X 2
-Calves with BVD X 2 were shot, 1 still alive until I get bullets again)
-2 good calves
-2 poor calves
- 1 one of the heifers died with a infection resulting from a calving (14 mth heifer that didnt even look incalf when calving).

Now maybe you can understand why it pisses me off that some farmers are so unprofessional in their approach to selling animals. Most of the heifers will also have taken a major setback due to calving so I havnt factored this into the equation. If in doubt then either scan them or dont sell them as garraunteed maidens. I have never returned animals as it would involve me going to more hassle and getting the animals blooded and moving from a feedlot. I would wish I never buy an animal incalf as it just hassle

There was talk recently about a severe plenatly for any seller, selling heifers that were supposed to be maidens, the sooner this happens the better as the current craic is costing me allot of money

BTW very well fed beef heifer often dont show any signs of carrying a calf up to the last few days when they spring up. Even bagging up often isnt a sing as I have often seen well fed heifers bag up and they would be empty

bob charles

leg wax wrote: »

i would have no problem taking 1 back before she calved but to only tell you after she has lost the calf he can go fcuk himself,hes only a chancer:mad:

If she calved and went alright maybe he would have being happy enough, its when she had a dead calf and turned a beef heifer into a cow the problem arises as there is a price difference when selling the animal.

Even when a heifer calves right, usually you are still down money as the beef heifer may have missed the market and you are now stuck with a cow for at least another 6 months that you have to finance. If everything went to plan and the beef heifer killed when she was supposed to be the finisher would have at least got to finish another animal in her place if not to so his also has lost earnings due to this carry on. Yes you may say the calf is worth a few bob, but often you can get a heifers calf which isnt worth bugger all

pakalasa

I know Ennis Mart are offering a scanning service on mart day. Maybe well worth using for heifers you have doubts about.

whelan1

are you sure its your heifer, was a local boll*x buying heifers and switching tags into already incalf animals, he would ring previous owner that he wanted money... really annoyed me when he rang a local widow woman who only had heifers - so animal couldnt have gotten in calf on her farm- she paid him money:mad:

Pharaoh1

bob charles wrote: »

Lads the seller is completely in the wrong as you sold goods that were falsely advertised. We get between 10 and 20 of this bull**** every year and it really gets my goat up. We usually charge 150 to 200 euro for the hassle and the loss as the animal now is only worth cow price and usually the difference is around 150e. It seems to be the same farmers all the time. Of the 10 of these beef heifers that have had calves last winter we lost 5 so far
- born dead X 2
-born and died within hours X 2
-Calves with BVD X 2 were shot, 1 still alive until I get bullets again)
-2 good calves
-2 poor calves
- 1 one of the heifers died with a infection resulting from a calving (14 mth heifer that didnt even look incalf when calving).

Now maybe you can understand why it pisses me off that some farmers are so unprofessional in their approach to selling animals. Most of the heifers will also have taken a major setback due to calving so I havnt factored this into the equation. If in doubt then either scan them or dont sell them as garraunteed maidens. I have never returned animals as it would involve me going to more hassle and getting the animals blooded and moving from a feedlot. I would wish I never buy an animal incalf as it just hassle

There was talk recently about a severe plenatly for any seller, selling heifers that were supposed to be maidens, the sooner this happens the better as the current craic is costing me allot of money

BTW very well fed beef heifer often dont show any signs of carrying a calf up to the last few days when they spring up. Even bagging up often isnt a sing as I have often seen well fed heifers bag up and they would be empty

With you on this one Bob. Used to buy heifers years ago but wouldn't consider it now as too much hassle with in calf ones and all the problems it brings as you outlined.

At least I don't have that problem with buying bulls/bullocks although its hard to avoid a few that were not properly dehorned or castrated.

Kovu

To be honest, going through a mart they are sold as maidens, so therefore you have to take her back.
I've had a load of bother with this so far this year, an article I wrote for the paper net week may cop some of them on for next year, article here- http://www.d1139451.cp.blacknight.com/martwordpress/?p=343

Edit- you are correct in that she should have been noticed sooner and brought back, the problem is, as mentioned earlier, heavy feeding means that they don't show and can just be missed.

1chippy

Now as i stated we took the heifer back no problem. This heifer didnt spring up overnight. another man pointed her out to him two weeks back. she has an excellent elder, most dairy guys would be proud. i just wanted to get a feel for what the position is on it.
The heifer was one we wanted for breeding and we didnt get her checked with the rest as we were keeping her. it was just the fact she wasnt big enough so we sold.
Thanks for all the replies

Muckit

whelan1 wrote: »

would be worth your while to scan them before you sell them just to be sure

I see in the IFJ last week they were talking about lads that are using this probe (a metal rod with a rubber bung on the end) to determine pregnancy instead of scanning. It supposed to be less invasive than scanning and so keeps womb sterile and less chances of introducing infection and infertility.

Basically I think the amount of mucus on the end of rubber determines the pregnancy AFAIK. They reckoned alot of dairy lads/lassies are using this methid..... did you ever hear of this whelan1? I didn't!

Muckit

Kovu Murr wrote: »

To be honest, going through a mart they are sold as maidens, so therefore you have to take her back.

What's the official line if the seller declares at time of selling that she there's a chance she could be incalf......?

Kovu

Muckit wrote: »

What's the official line if the seller declares at time of selling that she there's a chance she could be incalf......?

It basically means it's a no come back. It was declared and written on the sellers sheet. The option is therefore given to the buyer on whether he want's to take a chance or else inject her. She is announced and sold as seen with the possibility of a calf being in her.

Farmer Pudsey

Technically in this case OP would be entitled not to take heifer as Feedlot owner did not notify OP about heifer when he became aware of it two weeks before. Feedlot owner here is in the wrong he is calving them down anf if ok selling heifer and calf and if a problem returning heifer to owner.

I can see it from feedlot owner as well if you are feeding heifers they may not bag down until very late also I have see fat heifers bag down nad look like incalf. I cannot understand why farmers that suspect that there heifers may be incalf do not inject them before sale.

Min

To take a quote from the opening post: "
I asked the farmer (fattens heifers) did he have much of this happening and he said he had a couple this year and had sold them all with calves at foot and they had worked out pretty profitable"

So the buyer had no problem with in calf heifers once he could sell them with the calf...
The fact the claf died from this particular animal would lead me to question the buyer and their honesty, it seems he would have not contacted the seller if the calf had lived as he would have sold her and the calf on.
The buyer wanted to have it everyway in this case and this is not right or fair on the seller, irrespective if the seller is bound to state the heifer is in calf with no knowledge of an in calf heifer being an invalid excuse.
The farmer who bought this animal chanced his arm and when the calf died it was then time to call the seller.
If he didn't want an in calf heifer he should have told the buyer before she calved.
I wouldn't be happy in the knowledge he said he had some already who he didn't know that were in calf but he kept them and sold them on as they were profitable.
The farmer knew what he was doing and it was not right.

bob charles

irrespective of what way the animals goes I have to seek compensation. Animals cannot return from a herd with feedlot status.

I was herding this morning and had to move a big charalois heifer with a calf at foot. Serious animal and would fetch 2k if sold in the ring as nice heifer calf aswell. I noticed this heifer in calf the day she was being drafted for slaughter which was around a month ago. On that day she was worth 1720e (400kgs * 4.30e min). Now Im well pissed off even though she has a good calf at foot as I have to hold her for and extra 5 - 6 months from the day I drafted her for slaughter. By then the animals will be meeting a much poorer price and will also be sold as a cow so, say cows are 3.30e kilo (September price) the day she is sold she will only come into 1300, calf will be worth 600 I would hope, again the calf cant be sold so my total for holding onto the animal will be 2100euro after 6 months. I will be up 380e but I will have missed out on the chance of having fed and slaughtered two more heifers in the meantime, and I have a calf that I cant sell that doesnt fit in with my business.

bob charles

Muckit wrote: »

What's the official line if the seller declares at time of selling that she there's a chance she could be incalf......?

usually these animals where I buy cattle are sold with the cows as cows come with no guarantee. I have no problem with that

releasevalve

Hi
Had dry heifers 2 year olds neighbours bull ran with them for a couple of days before found out did nt mind needed to sell because d ont have time for in calf heifers (working off farm) had them scanned in febuary sold them as in calf gave a time 2-3 months sold them. couple of weeks later got call from buyer looking for money because they did nt calf exatly on time. to make a long story short heifer had calf 6-8 weeks late. buyer still looking for money and threating solicitors letters. Where do i stand?

bob charles

releasevalve wrote: »

Hi
Had dry heifers 2 year olds neighbours bull ran with them for a couple of days before found out did nt mind needed to sell because d ont have time for in calf heifers (working off farm) had them scanned in febuary sold them as in calf gave a time 2-3 months sold them. couple of weeks later got call from buyer looking for money because they did nt calf exatly on time. to make a long story short heifer had calf 6-8 weeks late. buyer still looking for money and threating solicitors letters. Where do i stand?

Stand firmly, FFs the heifer calved a bit later than normal. Buyer is being a tad unreasonable imv, but presume you only gave an estimate calving date. My old reply about when a cow is due to calve is "whenever she gets the pain"

releasevalve

Cheers my thinking exactly just needed a second opinion.

Kovu

releasevalve wrote: »

Hi
Had dry heifers 2 year olds neighbours bull ran with them for a couple of days before found out did nt mind needed to sell because d ont have time for in calf heifers (working off farm) had them scanned in febuary sold them as in calf gave a time 2-3 months sold them. couple of weeks later got call from buyer looking for money because they did nt calf exatly on time. to make a long story short heifer had calf 6-8 weeks late. buyer still looking for money and threating solicitors letters. Where do i stand?

Yup, stand firm, estimate only was given. But I would also think about changing your scanning man, 2/3 months incalf is very basic. Round here they almost have them to the week of calving!

Black Smoke

bob charles wrote: »

leg wax wrote: »

i would have no problem taking 1 back before she calved but to only tell you after she has lost the calf he can go fcuk himself,hes only a chancer:mad:

If she calved and went alright maybe he would have being happy enough, its when she had a dead calf and turned a beef heifer into a cow the problem arises as there is a price difference when selling the animal.

Even when a heifer calves right, usually you are still down money as the beef heifer may have missed the market and you are now stuck with a cow for at least another 6 months that you have to finance. If everything went to plan and the beef heifer killed when she was supposed to be the finisher would have at least got to finish another animal in her place if not to so his also has lost earnings due to this carry on. Yes you may say the calf is worth a few bob, but often you can get a heifers calf which isnt worth bugger all

It's terrible when a dealer gets a bit of a set back on an individual animal he buys! It's not as if for one single minute the dealer(s), wouldn't have controlled and kept a lid on the prices paid around the ring, by mutual cooperation or something like that -;)

grazeaway

We keep a number of our heifer calves for replacments but he rest go for sale. Had an issue with them being in calf a few years ago (never happend when we had calves from dairy cows, must be soemthing with the sucklers) anyway we ened up keeping all the heifers over the 1st winter and were getting ready to split them into groups for replacements or selling when we noticed one in the group for selling looked like she was springing. tought it was a bit strange, asked the uncles as they were more used to dealing with beef cattle and they too reckoned she was springing, lo and behold a little black calf appered a few days later heifer was only 14months but both were fine. Checked the other heifers and found 2 more they were a bit older at 18months but both calved ok. sold the younger one with calf at foot (she was mostly frisien) and kept the other 2 ended up as nice cows but we were worried incase they didnt grow. heard back about 2 years later that the owner of the third one was delighted with her. he waited until she was a bit older to put in calf again but she is throwign good calves and he has had to double suckler her most years as she has too much milk.

anyway morale of the story is we inject any heifers calves we suspect have been bulled after we wean them as they are then seprated from the bull calves and from the bull. havent had an issue since. worth spending a few bob on the injection for a few of the older heifers or those that have looked friskey then having to deal with comebacks

barryoc1

Just wondering, not saying it is right but if no calf is registered to the heifer, cause the calf died so the owner may not have bothered registering the dead calf, will she still be considered a heifer in the factory or have they a way of telling she had a calf and therefore she is declared a cow in the factory?

Farmer Pudsey

barryoc1 wrote: »

Just wondering, not saying it is right but if no calf is registered to the heifer, cause the calf died so the owner may not have bothered registering the dead calf, will she still be considered a heifer in the factory or have they a way of telling she had a calf and therefore she is declared a cow in the factory?

As nothing is registered on CMMS she will go throught as a heifer.

bob charles

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

As nothing is registered on CMMS she will go throught as a heifer.

you wanna bet, maybe the factory boys are nicer folk where your killing, its easy know from the pelvic area if a heifer had a calf or not.

Figerty

barryoc1 wrote: »

Just wondering, not saying it is right but if no calf is registered to the heifer, cause the calf died so the owner may not have bothered registering the dead calf, will she still be considered a heifer in the factory or have they a way of telling she had a calf and therefore she is declared a cow in the factory?

Everyone here is assuming the calf actually died!

bob charles

Figerty wrote: »

Everyone here is assuming the calf actually died!

unfortunately this can be a good outcome, I have a good few heifers miniature calves here this year, might make a few quid made selling them for the show circut:D

Figerty

bob charles wrote: »

unfortunately this can be a good outcome, I have a good few heifers miniature calves here this year, might make a few quid made selling them for the show circut:D

What I mean is there anyway of knowing if the calf is alive, registered to another heifer, and has sold this on. Of course if the calf was registered to the heifer than that is different.

49801

bob charles wrote: »

you wanna bet, maybe the factory boys are nicer folk where your killing, its easy know from the pelvic area if a heifer had a calf or not.

Figerty wrote: »

What I mean is there anyway of knowing if the calf is alive, registered to another heifer, and has sold this on. Of course if the calf was registered to the heifer than that is different.

Bob said it above

bob charles

Figerty wrote: »

What I mean is there anyway of knowing if the calf is alive, registered to another heifer, and has sold this on. Of course if the calf was registered to the heifer than that is different.

there is but it would cost allot of money and would probably need to have the department of Ag involved, and genetically linking calves with the real mothers

Farmer Pudsey

bob charles wrote: »

you wanna bet, maybe the factory boys are nicer folk where your killing, its easy know from the pelvic area if a heifer had a calf or not.

Bob I never deal in heifers much however any thime I have been at the mart often a young cow comes in maybe 22-36 months next thing it is announced "no calf registered" and she takes off like a hot potato she goes from cow price to near enough heifer price.

Alot depends on what the factories are looking for on the day if they need heifers to fill contracts then they will be blind on the day to the pelvic area.

Mind you 6 years back a neighbour had two young cows first calvers and both got killed as heifers by the factory on his sheet he got a fairly low heifer price at the time they were under 30 months.

I have seen the same thing with bullocks abouy 8 years back maize was cheap same price as ration in bagsand I had some young AA bullocks that were january born sucklers and was feeding them half and half. All these bullocks were graded as bulls in the factory and I was given the bullock price. Oboviously the fat was white enough to fill the contract so it all depends on the day and your bargaining power,

Dozer1

Sorry to hi-jack thread but its kinda related,

Sold a suckler cow with calf at foot, a few weeks back, she was scanned 2 weeks prior to sale and vet said calving Feb/March, cow was in good shape and engaged her as such in the ring.

day after sale mart rings to say cow won't eat, told them she was grand day before and was indoors eating good quality silage and meal, anything could have happened in mart or in transport so told em to get the vet as that's what i would do with any animal that was off form.

heard nothing till yesterday, mart rang and the new owner had rang and said cow was bulling that morning and wasn't happy.

I'm getting a cert to say she was scanned from the vet and I'll pass it on but after that I think its nothing to do with me or is that unfair?

sold her and 3 others as I was overstocked no other reason she was in 100% as far as I am concerned.

So my question is what would you do?

49801

Dozer1 wrote: »

Sorry to hi-jack thread but its kinda related,

Sold a suckler cow with calf at foot, a few weeks back, she was scanned 2 weeks prior to sale and vet said calving Feb/March, cow was in good shape and engaged her as such in the ring.

day after sale mart rings to say cow won't eat, told them she was grand day before and was indoors eating good quality silage and meal, anything could have happened in mart or in transport so told em to get the vet as that's what i would do with any animal that was off form.

heard nothing till yesterday, mart rang and the new owner had rang and said cow was bulling that morning and wasn't happy.

I'm getting a cert to say she was scanned from the vet and I'll pass it on but after that I think its nothing to do with me or is that unfair?

sold her and 3 others as I was overstocked no other reason she was in 100% as far as I am concerned.

So my question is what would you do?

Tricky one but sounds like you sold her as being incalf. While not nessicarily your fault you should probably take her back. Not worth having a fella bad mouthing you and falling out with each other. Just my opinion.

bob charles

Dozer1 wrote: »

Sorry to hi-jack thread but its kinda related,

Sold a suckler cow with calf at foot, a few weeks back, she was scanned 2 weeks prior to sale and vet said calving Feb/March, cow was in good shape and engaged her as such in the ring.

day after sale mart rings to say cow won't eat, told them she was grand day before and was indoors eating good quality silage and meal, anything could have happened in mart or in transport so told em to get the vet as that's what i would do with any animal that was off form.

heard nothing till yesterday, mart rang and the new owner had rang and said cow was bulling that morning and wasn't happy.

I'm getting a cert to say she was scanned from the vet and I'll pass it on but after that I think its nothing to do with me or is that unfair?

sold her and 3 others as I was overstocked no other reason she was in 100% as far as I am concerned.

So my question is what would you do?

you sold the cow with the description as best you could, you sought professional advice to see if she was in calf and you were told she was. Now the new owner maybe disappointed but surely your problem is with the vet. Mediation is usually the best route with either the mart or the buyer. Any chance the cow slipped the calf during haulage/selling/stress but if this was the case she couldn't be bulling the following day again. See if a few quid returned by you would solve it but don't get taken for a ride.

Bizzum

I'm not saying this is the case but will throw it out there anyway. This suckler cow that was scanned incalf 2 weeks pre sale. Was she scanned empty by the buyer? I know it's rare but I have seen cows incalf exihibiting many of the signs of a cow bulling and yet still be incalf.

Dozer1

Yes Bob, I'm sure she could easily have slipped the calf due to stress as that kind of thing happens but surely as a buyer this is something you live with when buying cattle, I engaged her and I have a cert to say she was scanned and I don't think he has had her scanned to prove she isn't incalf.

I've no idea what part of the country she's gone to and any kind of bullying could have happened in the truck/mart or when she arrived at the new owners.

As regards him bad mouthing me it wouldn't bother me, I don't sell a huge amount of cattle and as far as I'm concerned I sold in good faith people can think for themselves after that.

As Bob has mentioned here before about the hassle of buying heifers that turned up incalf I feel there is only so much I could have done, looking back now I suppose I would have covered my bases better if I'd said running with the bull and gave no time for her.

mallethead

I'm not saying this is the case but will throw it out there anyway. This suckler cow that was scanned incalf 2 weeks pre sale. Was she scanned empty by the buyer? I know it's rare but I have seen cows incalf exihibiting many of the signs of a cow bulling and yet still be incalf.

As Bizzum said it could happen and i had this happen
with a cow she came bulling and stood for the bull and i thought b****x she should have been near calving , about a fortnight later she calved a nice ch bull calf . it might be worth getting her checked again

Dozer1

Just to update on this,
Was at the mart a few days ago selling some weanlings and the guy who bought the cow came up to me after coming out of the sellers box.

Seemed resonable enough long story short told him I was sorry to hear she didn't hold in-calf and gave him 20 euro luck money so hopefully both parties are happy now.

As an aside some of his weanlings sold after mine and all I can they were no great shakes, was tempted to buy a few as they were cheap enough...

decided against it as mightn't be the best karma in it:)

bob charles

Dozer1 wrote: »

Just to update on this,
Was at the mart a few days ago selling some weanlings and the guy who bought the cow came up to me after coming out of the sellers box.

Seemed resonable enough long story short told him I was sorry to hear she didn't hold in-calf and gave him 20 euro luck money so hopefully both parties are happy now.

As an aside some of his weanlings sold after mine and all I can they were no great shakes, was tempted to buy a few as they were cheap enough...

decided against it as mightn't be the best karma in it:)

communication is everything in these issue as the day he rang you up it probably was just after happing and he was a bit hot under the collar.