Where Irish International rugby really stands.

dtpc191991

Two conclusions have emerged recently concerning the state of the international side when compared to our success in Europe.

1. We have excellent HC level players who can't really cut it International level hence why our national side is average at best.

2. We have an excellent international talent pool to pick from but Kidney fails to pick the creme of this crop and furthermore stunts the ability of these players to preform at International level by providing them with a poor backwards gameplan. This plan can't function in the modern game of rugby and goes against the instincts and natural style of play of the majority of our current talent pool engage in.

Personally I think it's the latter of the two. What's your opinion?

I am pie

Number 2.

I do not understand an argument which says having competitive club sides will hamper the national side. 'Look at Wales' is not an argument !

For me it seems you have to play your way out of the national side over a course of a few years (D'Arcy , DOC would be 2 in this category), it's unfeasibly difficult to dislodge a senior member of the squad.

I don't solely blame kidney, i really don't believe he has the final voice in selection. The influence of a panel of selectors who hide behind the scenes is not entirely beneficial.

Tox56

Whatever about the overall scheme of things, DOC being selected over not only Tuohy and McCarthy, but even D Ryan, was the single most ridiculous decision I think I've ever seen, he deserves to get the sack on that alone it was so incredible.

Timothy Bryce

Combination of 2 things IMO

1. An outdated game plan to play 10 man rugby.

2. The provinces having NIQ players in key positions that have been the difference in provincial wins this season.

e.g.
Ulster - Afoa, Wannenbosh, Muller, Pienaar
Leinster - VDM, Strauss, Thorn, Nacewa
Munster - Botha, Du Preez, Mafi, Howlett

I think the NIQ thing has been more noticeable in Ulster/Munster. For example, Afoa will eek out penalties at scrumtime and Pienaar will kick 3 pointers all day long.

I could be wrong on some/all of the above - just my 2c from where I see it

errlloyd

New plan for this 2013 six nations.

Leinster will play against France and Italy
Munster will play against England
Ulster will play against Wales and Scotland

I expect a grandslam.

BoarHunter

I just think people take HCup irish success way too seriously without considering the calendar of the other leagues ... hence the disappointement at international level.

Irish franchise are the best teams in the HCup and it will be more and more the case. This all irish finale was long overdue. However you shouldn't take the HCup as a benchmark for international.

Change the format of the HCup and the results will change. as simple as that.

Tox56

BoarHunter wrote: »

I just think people take HCup irish success way too seriously without considering the calendar of the other leagues ... hence the disappointement at international level.

Irish franchise are the best teams in the HCup and it will be more and more the case. This all irish finale was long overdue. However you shouldn't take the HCup as a benchmark for international.

Change the format of the HCup and the results will change. as simple as that.

Grand Slam winning Wales, with teams in the same league, could get 1 team out of the group stages, and they were humiliated against Leinster.

Piliger

Our players are as good any other rugby nation. The HC is proof positive of that and all the excuses about calendar and other leagues are nonsense.

The influence of NIQ players on Irish HC teams is far far less than on French and English teams.

Our failings at international rugby are two fold:

a) The manager is not producing the best from his team. The team is consistently under performing and that is the definitive reason to change the manager imho.

b) The players are too cautious when they play for Ireland. They have consistently failed to show adventure, initiative and adjust tactics to suit the state of the game.

Neil3030

Piliger wrote: »

Our players are as good any other rugby nation. The HC is proof positive of that and all the excuses about calendar and other leagues are nonsense.

The influence of NIQ players on Irish HC teams is far far less than on French and English teams.

Our failings at international rugby are two fold:

a) The manager is not producing the best from his team. The team is consistently under performing and that is the definitive reason to change the manager imho.

b) The players are too cautious when they play for Ireland. They have consistently failed to show adventure, initiative and adjust tactics to suit the state of the game.

Points a and b surely tie in with one another there

JustinDee

Tox56 wrote: »

Grand Slam winning Wales, with teams in the same league, could get 1 team out of the group stages, and they were humiliated against Leinster.

I think the poster means make everyone qualify for ERC competition on an even keel, rather than a set number from each participating union.

uRbaN

I read a decent article on this very subject on the Munsterfans website last night.

http://www.munsterfans.com/content/206-The-task-facing-Kidney

dtpc191991

uRbaN wrote: »

I read a decent article on this very subject on the Munsterfans website last night.

http://www.munsterfans.com/content/206-The-task-facing-Kidney

Very good article, absolutely correct.

profitius

Bit of both. Kidney is not getting the best out of the players. Thats as clear as day.

What we also have to realise is we're weak/unbalanced in some areas.

They good news is Ireland will much stronger for the next world cup. Theres loads of players coming through to strengthen areas of weakness and give greater depth to areas of strength.

Ireland will be contenders for the next world cup providing the coaching set up is first class.

chupacabra

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

Ulster - Afoa, Wannenbosh, Muller, Pienaar
Leinster - VDM, Strauss, Thorn, Nacewa
Munster - Botha, Du Preez, Mafi, Howlett

Strauss is irish qualified in 2013

Fishooks12

chupacabra wrote: »

Strauss is irish qualified in 2013

October 2012 I think

funky penguin

November 2012.

EDIT: Beg your pardon fishooks, tis October 2012.

JustinDee

Was having a chat with a friend of mine involved in rugby league abroad and he brought up a good point. He thinks the use of the word 'Europe' is misleading as it depicts an all continental conquering league when in fact it involves just three professional leagues (RaboDirect Pro12, Aviva Premiership, Top14). I'd tend to agree with him in terms of Six Nations or ERC competition.

tolosenc

Well, Spain, Germany, Greece or whoever are only being excluded because they'd be on the wrong end of cricket scores every game. The winner of the 6 nations is the best national team in Europe, the winner of the Heineken Cup is the best club team in Europe.

We can only dream of such a far reaching pan-European league as Rugby League has!

thebaz

JustinDee wrote: »

Was having a chat with a friend of mine involved in rugby league abroad and he brought up a good point. He thinks the use of the word 'Europe' is misleading as it depicts an all continental conquering league when in fact it involves just three professional leagues (RaboDirect Pro12, Aviva Premiership, Top14). I'd tend to agree with him in terms of Six Nations or ERC competition.

the winner of the Champions League will usually come from one of 4 countrys too - still Chelsea or Bayern will be Champions of europe - and rightly so

JustinDee

tolosenc wrote: »

Well, Spain, Germany, Greece or whoever are only being excluded because they'd be on the wrong end of cricket scores every game. The winner of the 6 nations is the best national team in Europe, the winner of the Heineken Cup is the best club team in Europe.

We can only dream of such a far reaching pan-European league as Rugby League has!

There are only three professional leagues. Thats it. None in any of the other 47 countries (not even the allegedly semi-pro league in Russia). Hence the point made as it is hardly pan-European. Probably the subject of another thread, having thought about it though.
Six Nations champion is just Six Nations champion, by the way. It isn't an European competition.

It wasn't an inter-code comment either. The two codes actually work together a lot more than you would think and the fella I'm paraphrasing has done more than most in this area.

JustinDee

thebaz wrote: »

the winner of the Champions League will usually come from one of 4 countrys too - still Chelsea or Bayern will be Champions of europe - and rightly so

Since you bring soccer into it, there are professional leagues all over Europe and the European Cup has been seen playoffs played by league teams from England, Scotland, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Romania, Belgium, Denmark, Serbia, Croatia, Greece, Turkey to name countries off hand.
Now that is pan-European.

Timothy Bryce

chupacabra wrote: »

Strauss is irish qualified in 2013

Noted.

Currently not though. Being IQ in Nov 2012 doesn't change the string of sh*t results.

thebaz

JustinDee wrote: »

Since you bring soccer into it, there are professional leagues all over Europe and the European Cup has been seen playoffs played by league teams from England, Scotland, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Romania, Belgium, Denmark, Serbia, Croatia, Greece, Turkey to name countries off hand.
Now that is pan-European.

yeah, but the reality is, that the chances of a league of Ireland team winning the Champions league, are about the same as the top German club winning the Heineken cup

JustinDee

thebaz wrote: »

yeah, but the reality is, that the chances of a league of Ireland team winning the Champions league, are about the same as the top German club winning the Heineken cup

I never brought Ireland or countries like that into it though. All the countries I listed run professional leagues.

irishbucsfan

The new rules re:NIQs will be a great benefit to Ireland.

Having two Irish players in each position will be brilliant and we'll more than likely see 3 Irish players in most given that some NIQs will be backups and Connacht will be improving.

All we need now is a more inclusive approach to players on the periphery of the national team. A reinvestment in A level rugby being an ideal way cultivate this. The current A setup really seems to be underfunded and underutilised and guys on the periphery of the national team aren't getting enough of a chance to show what they can do. When you look at the 2009 Churchill Cup you see the benefit we're missing out on. We're going to have more and more international quality players with nowhere to put them.

Banbridgeman

JustinDee wrote: »

tolosenc wrote: »

Well, Spain, Germany, Greece or whoever are only being excluded because they'd be on the wrong end of cricket scores every game. The winner of the 6 nations is the best national team in Europe, the winner of the Heineken Cup is the best club team in Europe.

We can only dream of such a far reaching pan-European league as Rugby League has!

There are only three professional leagues. Thats it. None in any of the other 47 countries (not even the allegedly semi-pro league in Russia). Hence the point made as it is hardly pan-European. Probably the subject of another thread, having thought about it though.
Six Nations champion is just Six Nations champion, by the way. It isn't an European competition.

It wasn't an inter-code comment either. The two codes actually work together a lot more than you would think and the fella I'm paraphrasing has done more than most in this area.

I've no idea what your point is here? Do you want German club teams in the HC or something? They're not there because like Irish clubs aren't in the champions league they don't deserve to be. The HC is incredibly competitive for example that Clermont side would be better than most international teams.As would that Leinster team. I also think our pack would be better than most international packs

Timothy Bryce

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

Noted.

Currently not though. Being IQ in Nov 2012 doesn't change the string of sh*t results.

nor does it mean that he would be anywhere near the starting side with Rory Best playing out of his skin for the past 12+ months.

Timothy Bryce

Deleted User wrote: »

nor does it mean that he would be anywhere near the starting side with Rory Best playing out of his skin for the past 12+ months.

Indeed - personally I'd have Strauss on the bench ahead of nugget

The answer to the thread title is pretty clear imo.

"In the dark ages, looking ever further backwards"

Conas

Rugby is growing in Russia from what I believe, maybe in the next decade or so we'll see one or two Russian clubs in the HC, and Russia joining the Six Nations.

But when you sit back and reflect on these things the likes of Germany, Poland, and Spain could easily put together a very good quality rugby team if they focused on rugby more, but the reality is soccer is the number 1 sport in all those countries, and that's the bottom line, and I can't see it changing anytime soon.

Rugby has never been as popular in Ireland as it is now. When I was growing up and in my teenage years I had no interest in Rugby, but then as I kept watching it, it grew on me, and now it's my favourite sport.

errlloyd

JustinDee wrote: »

Was having a chat with a friend of mine involved in rugby league abroad and he brought up a good point. He thinks the use of the word 'Europe' is misleading as it depicts an all continental conquering league when in fact it involves just three professional leagues (RaboDirect Pro12, Aviva Premiership, Top14). I'd tend to agree with him in terms of Six Nations or ERC competition.

I am going to go ahead and say the Soccer World cup isn't a world cup because Somalia don't enter team.

The reason we call it a European Cup, and say Leinster are the best team in Europe is because if good enough teams existed in Europe they'd be let in. If a great rugby franchise existed in North America, we wouldn't let them in.

Indeed in the first H/Cup a Romanian team played, because the Amlin winner gets auto H/Cup quali theoretically within two seasons you could have teams from Romania and Spain enter the H/Cup.

Is the champions league really a european cup if no team from Luxembourg takes part? No of course not.

On a more abstract level you could argue that world 100m champion couldn't truly be decided unless every single person in the world raced in it.

In reality everyone knows the context in which we say "Leinster are the best rugby team in Europe" - your mate from league would be justifiably annoyed if we didn't specify they were the best Union team in Europe. But to say we are misleading people by not first clarifying that there are only really 30-40 teams in Europe is absolute sillyness.

How should we say it "Leinster are the best of the teams in the championship that theoretically incorporates all of Europe, but in reality only a relatively small percentage take part".

Thats like me saying "Renaud Lavillenie is the champion of all the people in the world who have at some point pursued pole vaulting at a competitive level".

"Stephen Hawking is the smartest of the people who were lucky enough to have a very good basic intelligence and a high investment in their education as they were growing up allowing them the freedom to pursue a life in academia"


But all of this is Academic, if I want to say Leinster are the best club rugby team in the world outside of Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, just to impress someone who knows nothing about rugby, that's my right.


TL;DR

The truth is the only person who gives a damn who the best club rugby side in Europe is, is someone who knows enough about rugby to accurately understand exactly what that statement means!!

JustinDee

Banbridgeman wrote: »

I've no idea what your point is here? Do you want German club teams in the HC or something?

No, I'm just saying the references to 'Europe' when it comes to the rugby are exaggerative, in my opinion.

Conas

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

Indeed - personally I'd have Strauss on the bench ahead of nugget

Personally I'd have any Irish hooker ahead of Strauss. He's South African, he's not Irish. Let him play for South Africa. We need to develop are own players not take someone elses.

bossa_nova

In my opinion the Heiniken cup is a great barometer to how good a national team should be, the only exception being wales winning the odd grand slam but consistency is a problem for them.

If you look at the 5 Heiniken cups during 99-04 it was about the English clubs, winning 4 out of 5 cups, and true to their form they went on with the National team get wins against Aus and New Zealand down under, went on to win a world cup and peaked at number 1 in the world rankings.

Then we have the french domination of the Heiniken cup starting from 02' to 06 where during 5 Heiniken cup finals, 6 French teams made up the 10 teams in the finals, this coincided with France's best spell of form recently winning 2 grandslams, a 6 nations championship and beating team like NZ and Aus home and away and peaking out at 2nd in the world rankings

Now look at Ireland, 4 irish teams won the last 6 Heiniken cups, and during 05-07(pre- world cup) Ireland where on course to reaching the potential that club teams where laying out for them peaking at 3rd in the world rankings and playing some great rugby against SA AUS and coming within a whisker of a grandslam/championship. During 08-09 when we won 2 HCups and a change in head caoch at Ireland we won grand slam and went unbeaten for a year, we didnt give the best performances but we where on course to hopefully fulfill our potential. Since then i feel the Irish are even better in the HC with 4 teams now in it and 3rd province making a serious challenge to win the cup, yet our form has drastically dropped over 4 tournaments at a national level, and our performances are nowhere near what our provinces are throwing out.

There is something seriously strangling Ireland at a national level and its certainly not the NIQs holding us back (realistically we are only in bad shape at prop, and only after the England game has the IRFU bothered their hole to do something about, some thing should have been done after the whole fiasco with Hayes and Buckley, but no we rested in the fact that we found Mike Ross and said grand no need for a prop now)

JustinDee

bossa_nova wrote: »

There is something seriously strangling Ireland at a national level and its certainly not the NIQs holding us back (realistically we are only in bad shape at prop, and only after the England game has the IRFU bothered their hole to do something about, some thing should have been done after the whole fiasco with Hayes and Buckley, but no we rested in the fact that we found Mike Ross and said grand no need for a prop now)

You'd be mistaken if you thought that the player succession policy was conceived in a couple of days following the England game. There is a lot of planning behind it, covering all areas involved in player contracts, budgets and constraints.

justsomebloke

JustinDee wrote: »

Was having a chat with a friend of mine involved in rugby league abroad and he brought up a good point. He thinks the use of the word 'Europe' is misleading as it depicts an all continental conquering league when in fact it involves just three professional leagues (RaboDirect Pro12, Aviva Premiership, Top14). I'd tend to agree with him in terms of Six Nations or ERC competition.

well the union ERC competitions covers more countries then RL's world club championship, so I wouldn't really be worried about it

bossa_nova

JustinDee wrote: »

You'd be mistaken if you thought that the player succession policy was conceived in a couple of days following the England game. There is a lot of planning behind it, covering all areas involved in player contracts, budgets and constraints.

Yeah i didnt mean to be that blunt about it, but it felt like they pulled it out prematurely as if to say, hey its not all bad see we are actually doing something about it. I still feel a lot more should have been done earlier to blood more Irish props or atleast bring some IQ props over from England. It will be interesting to see the Ulster vs Leinster final, theres potential for a full Irish front row to scrum down against another full Irish front row at the highest club level in Europe.

Timothy Bryce

Conas wrote: »

Personally I'd have any Irish hooker ahead of Strauss. He's South African, he's not Irish. Let him play for South Africa. We need to develop are own players not take someone elses.

All well and good but, surely if we have a hooker, who is IQ, wants to play for Ireland, and might be deemed better by the coaching staff than an 'Irish' option in the same position, we should be playing him, no?

I still think Cronin is quite rough around the edges - Strauss seems like more of reliable option to me personally.

JustinDee

justsomebloke wrote: »

well the union ERC competitions covers more countries then RL's world club championship, so I wouldn't really be worried about it

The guy is with the ARL who are responsible for the State of Origin and Kangaroos. I'd say he knows what he is talking about. Rugby league is irrelevant to the point in the first place. Don't shoot the messenger.

bossa_nova

Conas wrote: »

Personally I'd have any Irish hooker ahead of Strauss. He's South African, he's not Irish. Let him play for South Africa. We need to develop are own players not take someone elses.

I would have no problem with Strauss starting over an irish hooker provided he was the best playing hooker in Ireland, he really seems like a guy who will spend the rest of his playing days with an irish club and not get a few caps and go whever theres money

Its not the first time we have had foreigners come over and getting capped for Ireland either, issac boss was a born and breed kiwi getting capped for NZ under19s and 20s, and Tom Court was a born and breed Aussie, but looking at them now they'll most likely spend the rest of their like in Ireland and im sure they definitively consider themselves Irish at this stage

its_phil

errlloyd wrote: »

I am going to go ahead and say the Soccer World cup isn't a world cup because Somalia don't enter team.

Is the champions league really a european cup if no team from Luxembourg takes part? No of course not.

Yes they do have teams involved in both those competitions.

OldRio

JustinDee wrote: »

No, I'm just saying the references to 'Europe' when it comes to the rugby are exaggerative, in my opinion.

Two Irish teams in an European final and some people have this opinion??
That is so sad.
I guess the reason is to deflect the criticism of the international team.

errlloyd

its_phil wrote: »

Yes they do have teams involved in both those competitions.

Wow so Somalia does, that's somewhat surprising. Guess we'll go with Western Sahara.

The point with regard to Luxembourg is that although they have some teams which could play in the champions league, they've never qualified for the pool stages. By accepting they're part of it, you basically accept that any nation with atleast one team playing would be allowed enter. I am sure I can find at least one club or college playing university in every nation in Europe.

Most European nations have national teams (of varying quality)

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

The guy is with the ARL who are responsible for the State of Origin and Kangaroos. I'd say he knows what he is talking about. Rugby league is irrelevant to the point in the first place. Don't shoot the messenger.

Then why did you bring it up?

JustinDee

totallegend wrote: »

Then why did you bring it up?

To show that the fella is actually pretty flipping qualified to form such an opinion, thats why. Not to prove the point but to show where the point came from ie. a professional as opposed to a casual observer.

dub_skav

JustinDee wrote: »

To show that the fella is actually pretty flipping qualified to form such an opinion, thats why. Not to prove the point but to show where the point came from ie. a professional as opposed to a casual observer.

I think a lot of the "casual observers" on here are bemoaning where a highly decorated professional has brought our national team. Let's not overstate the importance of somebody's background

thomond2006

JustinDee wrote: »

I think the poster means make everyone qualify for ERC competition on an even keel, rather than a set number from each participating union.

It's not the Irish sides fault that they are full of internationals that need to be rested and that the other sides are crap.

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

Was having a chat with a friend of mine involved in rugby league abroad and he brought up a good point. He thinks the use of the word 'Europe' is misleading as it depicts an all continental conquering league when in fact it involves just three professional leagues (RaboDirect Pro12, Aviva Premiership, Top14). I'd tend to agree with him in terms of Six Nations or ERC competition.

JustinDee wrote: »

To show that the fella is actually pretty flipping qualified to form such an opinion, thats why. Not to prove the point but to show where the point came from ie. a professional as opposed to a casual observer.

He's "qualified" to count the number of leagues represented within the Heineken Cup??

You're right, no "casual observer" could do that, how wonderful to have the inside track.

JustinDee

totallegend wrote: »

He's "qualified" to count the number of leagues represented within the Heineken Cup??

You're right, no "casual observer" could do that, how wonderful to have the inside track.

He's someone who is part of a team that is about to land a record TV rights deal for NRL and State of Origin worth A$1.2bn. I think he can spot fluff when he sees it.
See? I can be sarky too.

justsomebloke

ok I think this has gone way off topic at this point.

If people want to start a separate thread on what counts as a 'European cup' please start a new thread