If a customer walks of a bar without paying, can the barstaff be made to pay?

calfmuscle

I have a bar/waiting job at the minute and we regularly have customers walk out. There are a few reasons for the walk outs such as 3 exits from the bar that lead to other areas of the hotel. Only one exit is visable from the bar.
Its a five star hotel so a lot of guests assume you will know their room numbers (despite there being over 350 guests on a busy night :mad:)

Anyway's the new manager is threatening to make the staff pay for walk outs. Can anyone tell me if this is legal?

No it's not.

calfmuscle

Deleted User wrote: »

No it's not.

Thanks for the reply, would you have any further information or know where I could get relevant info for the next day I'm in work. A few of the girls are quite panicked over this.

tucked

Your employer would have to have a clause in your contract, which you would have signed and agreed to, referring to this situation if they want to make deductions from your pay otherwise, as far as I know, it would be an unlawful deduction. Employers need to be very clear from the outset what deductions can be made from pay and must have employees agreement for anything other than tax which is a legally required deduction. Citizens Advice would be worth a call for expert advice.

calfmuscle

Thanks! There is nothing in our contracts the relates to deductions other than PRSI etc.

sligoface

had the same thing happen to me working at the clarion hotel, also tried to pressure us into paying cash to make up for the till being down (expected 10 of us to pay 15 euro each for a till that was down 150, despite the fact none of us were responsible for counting the till at either start or end of the shift and had done over a thousand easily on the night)
it's completely illegal, there should be a HR manager in the hotel and you should make them aware of the threat.

calfmuscle

Thanks! there is a HR manager, I think Ill arm myself with all the info and make sure the next time the bar manger makes this threat I will present him with all info and make sure he knows not to say it again.
If he does continue down this road Ill be straight to HR!

Wishbone Ash

Calfmuscle - refer your manager to the Payment of Wages Act 1991 (Particularly section 5). Your manager also has a responsibility to put procedures in place to prevent "walk outs" rather than taking it out on staff.

5.—(1) An employer shall not make a deduction from the wages of an employee (or receive any payment from an employee) unless—

(a) the deduction (or payment) is required or authorised to be made by virtue of any statute or any instrument made under statute,

(b) the deduction (or payment) is required or authorised to be made by virtue of a term of the employee's contract of employment included in the contract before, and in force at the time of, the deduction or payment, or

(c) in the case of a deduction, the employee has given his prior consent in writing to it.

(2) An employer shall not make a deduction from the wages of an employee in respect of—

(a) any act or omission of the employee, or

(b) any goods or services supplied to or provided for the employee by the employer the supply or provision of which is necessary to the employment,

unless—

(i) the deduction is required or authorised to be made by virtue of a term (whether express or implied and, if express, whether oral or in writing) of the contract of employment made between the employer and the employee, and

(ii) the deduction is of an amount that is fair and reasonable having regard to all the circumstances (including the amount of the wages of the employee), and

(iii) before the time of the act or omission or the provision of the goods or services, the employee has been furnished with—

(I) in case the term referred to in subparagraph (i) is in writing, a copy thereof,


(II) in any other case, notice in writing of the existence and effect of the term,

and

(iv) in case the deduction is in respect of an act or omission of the employee, the employee has been furnished, at least one week before the making of the deduction, with particulars in writing of the act or omission and the amount of the deduction, and

(v) in case the deduction is in respect of compensation for loss or damage sustained by the employer as a result of an act or omission of the employee, the deduction is of an amount not exceeding the amount of the loss or the cost of the damage, and

(vi) in case the deduction is in respect of goods or services supplied or provided as aforesaid, the deduction is ofan amount not exceeding the cost to the employer of the goods or services, and

(vii) the deduction or, if the total amount payable to the employer by the employee in respect of the act or omission or the goods or services is to be so paid by means of more than one deduction from the wages of the employee, the first such deduction is made not later than 6 months after the act or omission becomes known to the employer or, as the case may be, after the provision of the goods or services.

(3) (a) An employer shall not receive a payment from an employee in respect of a matter referred to in subsection (2) unless, if the payment were a deduction, it would comply with that subsection.

(b) Where an employer receives a payment in accordance with paragraph (a) he shall forthwith give a receipt for the payment to the employee.

(4) A term of a contract of employment or other agreement whereby goods or services are supplied to or provided for an employee by an employer in consideration of the making of a deduction by the employer from the wages of the employee or the making of a payment to the employer by the employee shall not be enforceable by the employer unless the supply or provision and the deduction or payment complies with subsection (2).

(5) Nothing in this section applies to—

(a) a deduction made by an employer from the wages of an employee, or any payment received from an employee by an employer, where—


(i) the purpose of the deduction or payment is the reimbursement of the employer in respect of—

(I) any overpayment of wages, or


(II) any overpayment in respect of expenses incurred by the employee in carrying out his employment,

made (for any reason) by the employer to the employee, and

(ii) the amount of the deduction or payment does not exceed the amount of the overpayment,

or

(b) a deduction made by an employer from the wages of an employee, or any payment received from an employee by an employer, in consequence of any disciplinary proceedings if those proceedings were held by virtue of a statutory provision, or

(c) a deduction made by an employer from the wages of an employee in pursuance of a requirement imposed on the employer by virtue of any statutory provision to deduct and pay to a public authority, being a Minister of the Government, the Revenue Commissioners or a local authority for the purposes of the Local Government Act, 1941 , amounts determined by that authority as being due to it from the employee, if the deduction is made in accordance with the relevant determination of that authority, or

(d) a deduction made by an employer from the wages of an employee in pursuance of any arrangements—

(i) which are in accordance with a term of a contract made between the employer and the employee to whose inclusion in the contract the employee has given his prior consent in writing, or

(ii) to which the employee has otherwise given his prior consent in writing,
and under which the employer deducts and pays to a third person amounts, being amounts in relation to which he has received a notice in writing from that person stating that they are amounts due to him from the employee, if the deduction is made in accordance with the notice and the amount thereof is paid to the third person not later than the date on which it is required by the notice to be so paid, or

(e) a deduction made by an employer from the wages of an employee, or any payment received from an employee by his employer, where the employee has taken part in a strike or other industrial action and the deduction is made or the payment has been required by the employer on account of the employee's having taken part in that strike or other industrial action, or

(f) a deduction made by an employer from the wages of an employee with his prior consent in writing, or any payment received from an employee by an employer, where the purpose of the deduction or payment is the satisfaction (whether wholly or in part) of an order of a court or tribunal requiring the payment of any amount by the employee to the employer, or

(g) a deduction made by an employer from the wages of an employee where the purpose of the deduction is the satisfaction (whether wholly or in part) of an order of a court or tribunal requiring the payment of any amount by the employer to the court or tribunal or a third party out of the wages of the employee.

(6) Where—

(a) the total amount of any wages that are paid on any occasion by an employer to an employee is less than the total amount of wages that is properly payable by him to the employee on that occasion (after making any deductions therefrom that fall to be made and are in accordance with this Act), or

(b) none of the wages that are properly payable to an employee by an employer on any occasion (after making any such deductions as aforesaid) are paid to the employee,

then, except in so far as the deficiency or non-payment is attributable to an error of computation, the amount of the deficiency or non-payment shall be treated as a deduction made by the employer from the wages of the employee on the occasion.

the_syco

Get management to put up a sign saying that the you don't do tabs.

juan.kerr

Ask for the room number when taking the order or handing over the order?

biko

Ask to see the room key when you serve them? Does it have room number on it?
Tbh, even if I was staying in a hotel I'd expect to pay cash for drinks at bar.

calfmuscle

the_syco wrote: »

Get management to put up a sign saying that the you don't do tabs.

Its a five star hotel so tabs are expected, we can really ask people to pay in advance of a food order.

juan.kerr wrote: »

Ask for the room number when taking the order or handing over the order?

We do this already, but we get a lot of people coming in that are not staying in the hotel, plus sometime people are so busy they just forget. All our shifts are 10 hours minimum with 45minutes breaks and we are nearly always understaffed so its not a great working environment.

calfmuscle

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Calfmuscle - refer your manager to the Payment of Wages Act 1991 (Particularly section 5). Your manager also has a responsibility to put procedures in place to prevent "walk outs" rather than taking it out on staff.

Thanks for that! That's kind of what I thought, at the minute asking for room numbers and making sure you hand over tables when on breaks or going home are the only procedures in place.
I know that as soon as the summer comes and people are sitting outside there will be a big increase in walk outs.
You cant see the outside seating area from the bar and people can leave the area by steps that lead to country walk. This means they never have to come back in through the bar to leave.

calfmuscle

biko wrote: »

Ask to see the room key when you serve them? Does it have room number on it?
Tbh, even if I was staying in a hotel I'd expect to pay cash for drinks at bar.

Thanks, the room keys are all electronic so they are just cards with no numbers on them, but we do ask for room numbers.
A lot of the time its people who come in and have coffees and just forget to pay when they are heading off. We serve a lot of food as well though and its expensive! Two main courses and a couple of drinks will set you back nearly 50 euro, there is no way in hell Im paying for other people dinners!

Mr. Presentable

May I see your key please, and, if they have no key they must pay immediately. The reason the manager has a problem is it is likely that someone on the staff has been feeding their friends and letting them walk out.

calfmuscle

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

May I see your key please, and, if they have no key they must pay immediately. The reason the manager has a problem is it is likely that someone on the staff has been feeding their friends and letting them walk out.

That is not happening.

There is a service issue with asking for payment in advance if you are going to a hotel for dinner you do not expect to pay for your steak and bottle of chianti before you have eaten/drank it.

Lockstep

I work in a hotel bar as well and we have the same problem, although the cost is taken out of tips rather than wages. Requiring payment out of wages is pretty not on and illegal.

Asking customers to pay upfront for drinks will just be met with a blank stare and "But we're eating here." so I get where you're coming from. Plus, room numbers are pointless as so many customers aren't residents.

calfmuscle

Lockstep wrote: »

I work in a hotel bar as well and we have the same problem, although the cost is taken out of tips rather than wages. Requiring payment out of wages is pretty not on and illegal.

Asking customers to pay upfront for drinks will just be met with a blank stare and "But we're eating here." so I get where you're coming from. Plus, room numbers are pointless as so many customers aren't residents.

Thanks for that! Its a tough one as you want people to have an enjoyable evening but are worrying about walk outs all the time.
Although personally im not happy to pay for walkouts at all even, out of my tips.

Mr. Presentable

calfmuscle wrote: »

That is not happening.

There is a service issue with asking for payment in advance if you are going to a hotel for dinner you do not expect to pay for your steak and bottle of chianti before you have eaten/drank it.

It's normal in a bar to pay before you consume. I expect they have few issues in the restaurant. It is usual to show your key if you are resident when going for dinner.

Dyr

calfmuscle wrote: »

Thanks! there is a HR manager, I think Ill arm myself with all the info and make sure the next time the bar manger makes this threat I will present him with all info and make sure he knows not to say it again.
If he does continue down this road Ill be straight to HR!

If you think a HR manager is there to provide you with assistance in any dispute with management you're probably in for a rude awakening. :eek:

Yourwellcum

Bambi wrote: »

If you think a HR manager is there to provide you with assistance in any dispute with management you're probably in for a rude awakening. :eek:

HR is still the first port of call though if there is no union.

goat2

calfmuscle wrote: »

I have a bar/waiting job at the minute and we regularly have customers walk out. There are a few reasons for the walk outs such as 3 exits from the bar that lead to other areas of the hotel. Only one exit is visable from the bar.
Its a five star hotel so a lot of guests assume you will know their room numbers (despite there being over 350 guests on a busy night :mad:)

Anyway's the new manager is threatening to make the staff pay for walk outs. Can anyone tell me if this is legal?

you are bar staff and waiting staff, you are not employed as security staff,
you are not liable for the tab,
he could catch you for a tab if you served a friend and did not take payment, and that it could be proved that you did so,

calfmuscle

goat2 wrote: »

you are bar staff and waiting staff, you are not employed as security staff,
you are not liable for the tab,
he could catch you for a tab if you served a friend and did not take payment, and that it could be proved that you did so,

Thanks, neither myself or the other staff to my knowledge are giving away free food. Its rare that anyone has friends in as its such an expensive bar and its out of the way. On the occasions when staff do have family in we are allowed to give them % off as a friends and family rate. So there is really no reason to be claiming walk outs.

Marcusm

The poster above set out the position under payment of ways regs well; I believe the fine is onerous (thousands) reflecting the relative weightof management vs staff. Vis a vis deductions from tips, case law has previously held that cash tips are automatically the property of the staff member who serves the customer (as a gift) who may choose to what them with colleagues. Service charges and credit card tips are a different matter and might be fair game (unfortunately).

hardCopy

Lockstep wrote: »

I work in a hotel bar as well and we have the same problem, although the cost is taken out of tips rather than wages. Requiring payment out of wages is pretty not on and illegal.

Asking customers to pay upfront for drinks will just be met with a blank stare and "But we're eating here." so I get where you're coming from. Plus, room numbers are pointless as so many customers aren't residents.

Surely it's just as illegal to take it out of tips? Way out of order IMO. Your tips are your own money.

Wishbone Ash

Yourwellcum wrote: »

HR is still the first port of call though if there is no union.

Even if there is representation by a trade union, an employee should always make an attempt to sort any problem out first prior to going to their union. It's the first thing the union will ask.