Title deeds

Bombonica

My partner and I were paying mortgage for the last 6 years and we have received a letter from Law Society of Ireland saying that the practice of our former solicitor who was in charge of paperwork when we got the mortgage has been closed.Law Society of Ireland has our file and they say that the following work is outstanding:
1. Deed of transfer has not been registered in our names
2. The mortgage has not been registered in our names
3. The title deeds have not been returned to the lending institution
For the last 6 years up to present we have been paying the mortgage. What disadvantages or advantages we have in this situation, what should we do? Thank you.

Predalien

Bombonica wrote: »

My partner and I were paying mortgage for the last 6 years and we have received a letter from Law Society of Ireland saying that the practice of our former solicitor who was in charge of paperwork when we got the mortgage has been closed.Law Society of Ireland has our file and they say that the following work is outstanding:
1. Deed of transfer has not been registered in our names
2. The mortgage has not been registered in our names
3. The title deeds have not been returned to the lending institution
For the last 6 years up to present we have been paying the mortgage. What disadvantages or advantages we have in this situation, what should we do? Thank you.

There's no huge disadvantage, it''s just that some stuff still needs to be done, an application needs to be lodged with the land registry to register you as owners of the property, along with registration of the mortgage as a charge on the property, you will need a new solicitor to do this I think, do you know if your old solicitor charged you for this stuff? The work is mostly complete but the land registry fees themselves are steep enough. Shop around and I'm sure you'll be able to find a reasonably priced solicitor to finish it off.

Bombonica

Hi, yes we did paid him, I was just wondering is it possible that the bank doesn't have the deeds? and if they don't can it be done back-dated to 2006? Was the bank not responsible to make sure this work was done before they realese the mortgage? and who has the deeds then ? tks.

Bombonica

This is what seemed to happened to our solicitor (taken from Irish independent)

Solicitor suspended and bank accounts frozen after court order

The High Court has made orders suspending a Dublin solicitor and freezing his bank accounts after a deficit of €90,000 was discovered in his firm’s client account.
The Law Society sought the orders after its fitness-to-practise committee concluded the deficit had been caused by the misappropriation of client money by solicitor J........ of New Cabra Road, Phibsboro, Dublin. The orders were sought by Paul Anthony McDermott, for the Law Society, and Mr ... consented to them.
Mr Justice Iarfhlaith O’Neill was told yesterday the deficit arose after the solicitor transferred some €60,000 from the client account to the office account in December 2010. The office account was used for ongoing office outlays, including €18,000 for professional indemnity insurance.The judge also directed the solicitor hand over his files and documents to the Law Society and adjourned the matter.

killers1

Bombonica wrote: »

Hi, yes we did paid him, I was just wondering is it possible that the bank doesn't have the deeds? and if they don't can it be done back-dated to 2006? Was the bank not responsible to make sure this work was done before they realese the mortgage? and who has the deeds then ? tks.

It's not uncommon (even for a solicitors practice still operating) to take a few years to register the mortgage etc and return the Deeds to your lender. It was very frustrating for people who may have been in their property for a couple of years and then looked to sell or release equity to find out there would be a delay as all the registrations had yet to take place. In your situation I'd contact the Law Society to ensure they foot the bill to have the property & mortgage registered. They have a fund to cover instances like this. It could cost anything up to approx €800 to carry out the legal work required. As for your title deeds they could either be in your previous solicitors office or handed over to the Law Society if it's a case that the practice's documentation was seized or they may actually be with your lender. The Bank rely on the solicitors Undertaking to perfect the title to the property and register everything accordingly. In cases where it is not carried out the Bank have the ability to sue the solicitor & claim for loss via the solicitors Professional Indemnity insurance policy. There's no problem with the Title being registered in your name with the appropriate date the transaction occurred even if it was 6 years ago. No major impact here for you (so long as you don't have to foot the legal bill) and it's really more of a job for the bank to ensure that their security is perfected. You could contact your lender to tell them the law society were in contact with you and that the registrations remain outstanding but I'd suggest talking to the Law Society first to see what their position is in relation to covering the cost of the legal work. If they are happy to cover the bill then you just appoint another solicitor to carry out the registrations and then the perfected security & title deeds are sent to the bank and your previous solicitors Undertaking is no relevant.

Bombonica

According to the letter I received from the Law society of Ireland the deeds have not been returned to the bank, and the Law Society have our file, so that means they have the deed title? also the letter says that the mortgage has not been registered in our names, registered with who or where? I'm very confused about the whole situation. tks for taking your time to help.

killers1

Bombonica wrote: »

According to the letter I received from the Law society of Ireland the deeds have not been returned to the bank, and the Law Society have our file, so that means they have the deed title? also the letter says that the mortgage has not been registered in our names, registered with who or where? I'm very confused about the whole situation. tks for taking your time to help.

Either the Law Society or your lender will have the title deeds. Check with both. Whenever a property is purchased the new owners details are registered with either the Land Registry or the Registry of Deeds depending on the location of the property. It just means that it is recorded that you are the owner of the property. Likewise the mortgage is registered in the same way to prevent you from selling the property without telling your solicitor that there is a mortgage registered against the property which needs to be repaid from the sale proceeds. Don't worry about being confused, contact the Law Society and just ask
1. Do they have your Deeds (if the answer is no, contact your lender and ask the same question
2. Who is going to cover the bill to have the title and mortgage registered? If it's the Law Society ask them can you just appoint a solicitor of your choosing to carry out the work or do they want to appoint their own. If they will not cover the cost then tell your Bank that the title and mortgage hasn't been registered and ask them what they plan on doing about it?! i.e. will they cover the cost and allow you to appoint your own solicitor or do they want to appoint someone.

Bombonica

ok. that's very clear now, tks. just wonder if there's any truth in what some people are telling me, that if the bank don't have the deeds and we decide to leave the house, the bank does not have all the neccessary documentation to sue us for the remaining balance? does this make any sense? I've been advised that this is an opportunitty that could work to our advantage. Seems to easy to me, must be a catch somewhere..

killers1

Bombonica wrote: »

ok. that's very clear now, tks. just wonder if there's any truth in what some people are telling me, that if the bank don't have the deeds and we decide to leave the house, the bank does not have all the neccessary documentation to sue us for the remaining balance? does this make any sense? I've been advised that this is an opportunitty that could work to our advantage. Seems to easy to me, must be a catch somewhere..

The Bank may not have perfected security in so far as the property is not properly registered so they can't repossess and sell it presently but they do have a signed loan offer acceptance from you which allows them to pursue you for the full debt with or without the security of the property.

suzyball

I can help you as this exact same thing happened to me about 8 years ago. Your title deeds are with the Law Society practice closures section. You cannot take up these deeds. You need to nominate a Solicitor to complete the conveyancing work on your behalf. The cost of this is a matter for you and the Solicitor you nominate to do this on your behalf. They may opt to pay for this and claim the costs from the compensation fund. I have heard of this happening before. In my case I paid the fees directly to the nominated Solicitor and claimed from the compensation fund myself and was awarded compensation in the sum of €1,200 euro which more or less put me even with what I had to spend.

The transfer from the Vendor to your self will have to be registered in the Land Registry (assuming that its a registered title) The Mortgage you took out to purchase the property will have to be registered as a burden on the folio. To get an idea of the land registry fees i would have to know how much you actually paid for the house (consideration) as the fees are based on the price paid for the house. When all the registration work is done the Deeds will be sent to the bank for security against your mortgage.

At the moment that house will still be registered in the names of the person or persons that you purchased it from. I would not ignore that letter. At the time I didnt understand and I ignored it....two years later I was trying to remortgage and I couldnt and it took months to sort out. !!!!
If there is anything else I can help you with just ask!

Bombonica

Hi, Suzyball tks for your help, we are the first owners of the house the value of it was 245K and the mortgage borrowed 225K, I presume that since we are not registered on the deeds that the building company from which we bought the house are registered on the deeds,do you think this is possible? on what name do you think the deeds are registered? The Law Society said that :
1. Deed of transfer has not been registered in our names
2. The mortgage has not been registered in our names
3. The title deeds have not been returned to the lending institution

suzyball

Its €375 to register the Transfer in the Land Registry it is free to register a mortgage as far as I know. I would imagine that the deeds were handed over by the Builders Solicitor to your Solicitor at the time of closing. when the practice closed the file was taken up by the Law Society and I would assume that the Deeds are held there until you regularise the situation. The Solicitor you nominate to work on your behalf will take up the deeds from the Law Society and you and your partner will need to sign an authority to allow them to do this. You will also need to pay fees for the work your solicitor does on your behalf but you will be able to claim these monies back from the compensation fund.

You have no advantages in this situation. Are you thinking you can walk away from the house? By your own admission you have been paying the mortgage for 6 years and there is a signed Transfer Deed and Mortgage held on file by the law society. The disadvantage to you is that you cannot remortgage or sell this house until you fix this.

I think you should go and ring around a few solicitors in the area explain the situation and see if they would be willing to look after the fees (if you cant afford this) and claim the compensation fund themselves. One way or another this will have to be fixed someday ....you will either want to sell or remortgage or when you both die (hopefully very long into the future) your sucessors will have this headache to sort out. Ye know where the deeds are now trust me ye dont want them to get lost...its a headache and costly to replace them!

suzyball

Forgot to say that you can go into the public office of the land registry in the four courts and request a copy of the Folio for your house for €2.50 this will show you exactly who is registered as owner if indeed the property is registered at all.

Bombonica

Tks this is useful information, and yes I would consider walking away, and honestly I think many people would, paying a mortgage over 30 yrs for a house that currently values max. 150K I've lost hope that I will ever fully own the house, and if I would know for sure that the bank would be in the impossibility to follow us for the remaining balance I would walk away.

suzyball

I thought that was what you were getting at alright. You signed a Deed of Transfer and a Mortgage and even if they are not registered in the Land Registry they are legally binding documents and as such they can still be used against you. You can walk away if you want but the bank will still be looking for their money ya know? Unless of course your planning to walk to another county and never come back! This does not give you an advantage at all im afraid

Bombonica

well, never thought at that, no it won't be to our advantage at all if they can follow us. I guess we have to stick to the current situation and sort out the deeds. Thanks very much for your advise.

suzyball

Its a nasty situation for people in negative equity and I feel for them. But bear in mind that the bank could also do the registration to protect their mortgage. They are sneaky those banks!. They are probably going mad looking for the deeds at this stage. I know my bank was! when I finally got my file there was loads of letters from them looking for the deeds. Best of luck with your situation.

Bombonica

I don't know if the bank was informed by the Law society, I say they are in a big mess as the initial bank that lend us the money was taken, joined another bank, so god knows what's the story with our file, I consider it is their mistake, didn't heard anything from them yet and I don't want to be the one to inform them since it is mainly their fault, they should have made sure they have the deeds before releasing the mortgage, so they have lots of work to do to. I can only hope they never find my file ))

suzyball

Hey just so you know that isnt how it works. Its the Solicitor that represented you in the purchase who is at fault. They were supposed to register the transfer and mortgage in the Land Registry. When this is done they then hand over the title deeds as security to the bank. They get what is known as a certified copy Folio from the land registry showing the charge(mortgage) registered as a burden against the folio as proof and they send that along with all the other documents in their possession such as home bond, fire safety certificates architects certificates, planning docs etc etc to the bank. The Solicitor gives an what is known as an undertaking to the bank to do this at the time the mortgage is drawn down. It isnt the banks fault at all.

Bombonica

right so it seems like everything is in our disadvantage and as usual banks cannot be blamed for anything, just thought that if they need the deeds in order to secure the mortgage they made sure they have it, but as usual clients have to assure everything is in order even after paying professional people such solicitor, banks etc people that we think we can trust to do the job properly for the ridiculous fees that they charge. I'm just sick and disgusted by the entire system

Milk & Honey

Bombonica wrote: »

right so it seems like everything is in our disadvantage and as usual banks cannot be blamed for anything, just thought that if they need the deeds in order to secure the mortgage they made sure they have it, but as usual clients have to assure everything is in order even after paying professional people such solicitor, banks etc people that we think we can trust to do the job properly for the ridiculous fees that they charge. I'm just sick and disgusted by the entire system

The banks relied on your solicitor. So did you. At one time the bank used to do its own legal work and charge £100 + 1% on the value of the mortgage yo you as well have having to pay your own solicitor. That was stopped by government order in 1987.
There is solicitors professional indemnity insurance and a compensation fund in the law society if anything goes wrong from having both you and the bank relying on the one solicitor. Ultimately it saves money. The title deeds will be sorted out and you will be in no worse a position than if everything had been done properly from the start.

Bombonica

Tks, I got the main ideea, it was just a shock to discover after 6 years that the solicitor took 2000 euros, never finished his job and I found out just now, just hope that the law society will cover the cost or I'll have to find my former solicitor for a chat and 2000 punches in the face!! :mad::mad::mad: