Fake IDs

EmeraldIlser

Hypothetically, if a friend of mine was to come across a method of getting a fake ID card, and it says they are "legal" fake IDs, I assume this isn't true due to the whole forged gov. documents thing.

What I'm wondering, hypothetically of course, is, if the ID isn't a copy of an existing government ID is it legal to use a fake one? Or is the fact that it is trying to pass as a fake ID in the first place, forging a gov. document?

All hypothetical of course, and if it would that carry and legal ramifications?

This hypothetical friend is from a hypothetical small town where most minors get into clubs without IDs anyways.

All comments appreciated!

mattjack

EmeraldIlser wrote: »

Hypothetically, if a friend of mine was to come across a method of getting a fake ID card, and it says they are "legal" fake IDs, I assume this isn't true due to the whole forged gov. documents thing.

What I'm wondering, hypothetically of course, is, if the ID isn't a copy of an existing government ID is it legal to use a fake one? Or is the fact that it is trying to pass as a fake ID in the first place, forging a gov. document?

All hypothetical of course, and if it would that carry and legal ramifications?

This hypothetical friend is from a hypothetical small town where most minors get into clubs without IDs anyways.

All comments appreciated!

Is this to drink alcohol hypothetically ?

EmeraldIlser

mattjack wrote: »

Is this to drink alcohol hypothetically ?

No, get into an overage nightclub hypothetically.

Ellis Dee

Here's a driving licence I've used.:)



Seriously, though, don't get into using fake documentation. It will only bring trouble down on you. At most, borrow a genuine document belonging to an older sibling or relative who looks very like you. There is no point in getting a criminal record at any age, but especially when you are young.:)

Carawaystick

I saw ads in the Sunday times for "passports" from Rhodesia and Ceylon many years ago.
As these countries don't exist anymore they're not fake as such

CIARAN_BOYLE

If its a Garda age card a pass port or a driver license its an illegal fake id.

If its a college student card with date of birth on it it probably won't work to get into anywhere but its legal I think

ResearchWill

The Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001 section 26 which says as follows

"Using false instrument.

26.—(1) A person who uses an instrument which is, and which he or she knows or believes to be, a false instrument, with the intention of inducing another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, or to provide some service, to the prejudice of that person or any other person is guilty of an offence.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both."


False instrument is defined


“instrument” means any document, whether of a formal or informal character (other than a currency note within the meaning of Part 5) and includes any—

(a) disk, tape, sound track or other device on or in which information is recorded or stored by mechanical, electronic or other means,

(b) money order,

(c) postal order,

(d) postage stamp issued or sold by An Post or any mark denoting payment of postage which is authorised by An Post to be used instead of an adhesive stamp,

(e) stamp of the Revenue Commissioners denoting any stamp duty or fee, whether it is an adhesive stamp or a stamp impressed by means of a die,

(f) licence or certificate issued by the Revenue Commissioners,

(g) cheque, including traveller's cheque, or bank draft,

(h) charge card, cheque card, credit card, debit card or any card combining two or more of the functions performed by such cards,

(i) share certificate,

(j) certified copy, issued by or on behalf of an tArd-Chláraitheoir, of an entry in any register of births, stillbirths, marriages or deaths or in the Adopted Children Register,

(k) certificate relating to such an entry,

(l) a certificate of insurance,

(m) passport or document which can be used instead of a passport,

(n) document issued by or on behalf of a Minister of the Government and permitting or authorising a person to enter or remain (whether temporarily or permanently) in the State or to enter employment therein,

(o) registration certificate issued under Article 11(1)(e)(i) of the Aliens Order, 1946 ( S.I. No. 395 of 1946 ),

(p) public service card,

(q) ticket of admission to an event to which members of the public may be admitted on payment of a fee;

EmeraldIlser

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Here's a driving licence I've used.:)



Seriously, though, don't get into using fake documentation. It will only bring trouble down on you. At most, borrow a genuine document belonging to an older sibling or relative who looks very like you. There is no point in getting a criminal record at any age, but especially when you are young.:)

I thought all minor records were wiped clean once you turn 18, I know a Garda personally and he said that, but I do get what you mean, sadly I have no relatives that similar looking to me

Carawaystick wrote: »

I saw ads in the Sunday times for "passports" from Rhodesia and Ceylon many years ago.
As these countries don't exist anymore they're not fake as such

Hmm interesting idea, but aren't fake passports taken very seriously?

Also, it's not a garda card or any form of licence, the hypothetical site says it won't do licences, garda cards or passports.

The cards they do are an "Ireland Identity Card" an "International Age Card" and an "Irish Identification Card" which looks I'd assume looks very dodgy with this being hypothetical, not very sure of how legal they are though.

BornToKill

I would think it is an offence in itself under s26 of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001.

EmeraldIlser

@ResearchWill / BornToKill

Hmm seems like that sums it up fairly well on it's own. I'd assume the point of calling them legal would be in the terms of use as a novelty and not so much as passing it as an ID.

Thanks for clearing that up, always was..curious as to it's legality. ;D

ResearchWill

EmeraldIlser wrote: »

No, get into an overage nightclub hypothetically.

BTW if they are caught with fake ID and are under 18, buying drink, the pub risks a closure order. The fact that ID is fake is no defense, the only defense is providing national age card.

EmeraldIlser

ResearchWill wrote: »

BTW if they are caught with fake ID and are under 18, buying drink, the pub risks a closure order. The fact that ID is fake is no defense, the only defense is providing national age card.

Ouch, quite a harsh system we have isn't it? I'd say my friend is better off without one then, seeing as the hypothetical place always admits youths and the local Guards have no internet in policing the place despite knowing about it.

One other thing I was wondering hypothetically, if you were to get your provisional and it's date obviously added up to 17, and you were to alter your D.O.B. to make you one year older, would that be under the same provision of the law or would it be less serious? (and obviously look much more legitimate)

charlemont

Suppose you could get a False Instrument charge..


The lengths I went to to make a fake ID when I was 17 were hilarious, I actually used an iron to laminate it. The bloke in the offie was in stitches over it.

ResearchWill

EmeraldIlser wrote: »

Ouch, quite a harsh system we have isn't it? I'd say my friend is better off without one then, seeing as the hypothetical place always admits youths and the local Guards have no internet in policing the place despite knowing about it.

One other thing I was wondering hypothetically, if you were to get your provisional and it's date obviously added up to 17, and you were to alter your D.O.B. to make you one year older, would that be under the same provision of the law or would it be less serious? (and obviously look much more legitimate)

Section 30


Meaning of “false” and “making”.

30.—(1) An instrument is false for the purposes of this Part if it purports—

(a) to have been made in the form in which it is made by a person who did not in fact make it in that form,

(b) to have been made in the form in which it is made on the authority of a person who did not in fact authorise its making in that form,

(c) to have been made in the terms in which it is made by a person who did not in fact make it in those terms,

(d) to have been made in the terms in which it is made on the authority of a person who did not in fact authorise its making in those terms,

(e) to have been altered in any respect by a person who did not in fact alter it in that respect,

(f) to have been altered in any respect on the authority of a person who did not in fact authorise the alteration in that respect,

(g) to have been made or altered on a date on which, or at a place at which, or otherwise in circumstances in which, it was not in fact made or altered, or

(h) to have been made or altered by an existing person where that person did not in fact exist.

(2) A person shall be treated for the purposes of this Part as making a false instrument if he or she alters an instrument so as to make it false in any respect (whether or not it is false in some other respect apart from that alteration).

Section 25


Forgery.

25.—(1) A person is guilty of forgery if he or she makes a false instrument with the intention that it shall be used to induce another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, to the prejudice of that person or any other person.

(2) A person guilty of forgery is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.

EmeraldIlser

charlemont wrote: »

Suppose you could get a False Instrument charge..


The lengths I went to to make a fake ID when I was 17 were hilarious, I actually used an iron to laminate it. The bloke in the offie was in stitches over it.

I imagine it went well? *sarcasm* lol

ResearchWill wrote: »

Section 30


Meaning of “false” and “making”.

30.—(1) An instrument is false for the purposes of this Part if it purports—

(a) to have been made in the form in which it is made by a person who did not in fact make it in that form,

(b) to have been made in the form in which it is made on the authority of a person who did not in fact authorise its making in that form,

(c) to have been made in the terms in which it is made by a person who did not in fact make it in those terms,

(d) to have been made in the terms in which it is made on the authority of a person who did not in fact authorise its making in those terms,

(e) to have been altered in any respect by a person who did not in fact alter it in that respect,

(f) to have been altered in any respect on the authority of a person who did not in fact authorise the alteration in that respect,

(g) to have been made or altered on a date on which, or at a place at which, or otherwise in circumstances in which, it was not in fact made or altered, or

(h) to have been made or altered by an existing person where that person did not in fact exist.

(2) A person shall be treated for the purposes of this Part as making a false instrument if he or she alters an instrument so as to make it false in any respect (whether or not it is false in some other respect apart from that alteration).

Section 25


Forgery.

25.—(1) A person is guilty of forgery if he or she makes a false instrument with the intention that it shall be used to induce another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, to the prejudice of that person or any other person.

(2) A person guilty of forgery is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.

Looks like that puts an end to that debate, thanks for all your help and your time, appreciate the input

Carawaystick

I'm not so sure, a passport is issued on behalf of a country, so if the country does not exist, then it's not a passport.

the linked law does;t cover this, but I'd be expecting the definition of passport in some other law to maybe cover this.

If you didn't lie about your name, place of birth, date of birth etc, I don;t see what law is broken.

There's also some law preventing you lying about your name and date of birth alluded to on birth certs ``to falsify this document or utter it so falsified is an offence'' or very similar words are on my long one.



/OT
As I understand it, an age card is not id, it is only proof of age.
SO reading the linked law, is a person using a genuine age card belonging to someone else committing a crime?
I resume this is covered else where, but having read recent road traffic acts, fairly obvious loopholes have been left in laws, where things I'd imagine the authorities would want stopped are not illegal.

fasttalkerchat

Make sure it doesn't resemble a real ID. For example University of Donegal student ID would be fine.

ResearchWill

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Make sure it doesn't resemble a real ID. For example University of Donegal student ID would be fine.

Don't think so, as the university of donegal does not exist such document is by definition false, the real problem is if you then use it to get a benefit.

fasttalkerchat

ResearchWill wrote: »

Don't think so, as the university of donegal does not exist such document is by definition false, the real problem is if you then use it to get a benefit.

Whilst it is illegal to use a fake ID card fraudulently, incredibly, it is not illegal to make and sell them.

Taken from BBC news.

I think that because he is not doing anything illegal with it as he is over 18 its not breaking the law.

ResearchWill

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Taken from BBC news.

I think that because he is not doing anything illegal with it as he is over 18 its not breaking the law.

I assum BBC news would relate to The laws of NI or England and Wales or Scotland. I believe the section 25 I previously quoted covers making.

If using false ID and not getting any benefit then ya prob not breaking the law.

So to recap section 25 illegal to make a false instrument, section 26 illegal to use such instrument but only to get a benefit you would otherwise not get. So a fake student ID to get cheaper fares would be illegal. To have a ID for Stud College with all correct details then no law broken unless it gets you the benefit of getting laid where you would not have otherwise.

I just read section 30 again, in light of your post, I can see now how a maker of say "boards.ie fan club ID Card" could claim it was not a false instrument, but the age thing may still cause problems, also I guess if the card says clearly this is not an ID card then it again is more than likely not a false instrument, suppose it all depends on the facts of each case.

fasttalkerchat

Sorry I should have said my quote from the BBC was in the context of an ID for a non-existant organisation.
Its hard to find anything based on Irish law which clearly states what is legal.

EmeraldIlser

So to own a fake ID which is not a copy of any official existing ID card, is not illegal.

But if you were to use said ID to gain a benefit of being allowed into premises that require you to be a certain age, then it is illegal? Got to love confusing legislation!

Indricotherium

EmeraldIlser wrote: »

So to own a fake ID which is not a copy of any official existing ID card, is not illegal.

But if you were to use said ID to gain a benefit of being allowed into premises that require you to be a certain age, then it is illegal? Got to love confusing legislation!

I really can't see what's confusing there.

Using a false instrument for fraudulent gain is against the law.

If it is confusing it is because you are deliberately muddying the water.

Wait a couple of months and get a real ID.

fasttalkerchat

EmeraldIlser wrote: »

So to own a fake ID which is not a copy of any official existing ID card, is not illegal.

But if you were to use said ID to gain a benefit of being allowed into premises that require you to be a certain age, then it is illegal? Got to love confusing legislation!

I would say that if you are 18 it is not illegal to use a fake ID to get into a bar.