What are these cyclists up to? And how to behave around them...

spurious.

Hello lads,

Just curious as to whats the appropriate behavior around cyclists? Espicially in the city centre you see so many of them out of cycle lanes, running lights ect, ect. (wont dwell on that though...)

However, what should the cyclists be doing when there taking up most of the lane? Its a real pain as they are not leaving enough room us motorists to pass safely? They are given cycle lanes so why not use them? I thought that they shouldn't be out of either the bus lane or cycle lane where one is provided. I followed one down the outer lane on victoria quay. Admittedly the cyclist was turning right to head back up wolf tone quay, but surely he could have merged in at the lights and not held up traffic?

Anan1

spurious. wrote: »

Hello lads,

Just curious as to whats the appropriate behavior around cyclists?

Give them loads of room and just let them do their thing - they're small, they're vulnerable, and life's too short.

Mycroft H

spurious. wrote: »

Hello lads,

Just curious as to whats the appropriate behavior around cyclists? Espicially in the city centre you see so many of them out of cycle lanes, running lights ect, ect. (wont dwell on that though...)

However, what should the cyclists be doing when there taking up most of the lane? Its a real pain as they are not leaving enough room us motorists to pass safely? They are given cycle lanes so why not use them? I thought that they shouldn't be out of either the bus lane or cycle lane where one is provided. I followed one down the outer lane on victoria quay. Admittedly the cyclist was turning right to head back up wolf tone quay, but surely he could have merged in at the lights and not held up traffic?

There is only one outcome with a collision between a car and a cyclist, and its not a positive one for the cyclist. Give them loads of room. Intelligent cyclists are intentionally not giving you room to pass them in the same lane as there is not enough room for them and a car in the one lane although it may appear that there is from a drivers perspective. The recommended width for leaving between cyclists and pedestrians etc is 1.5m when overtaking which really can't be done safely without crossing lanes.

By taking their lane, so to speak, they are forcing you to have a bit of a think, pop the indicator on, check their mirrors and overtake safely. Its all good practice.

John_Rambo

spurious. wrote: »

However, what should the cyclists be doing when there taking up most of the lane? Its a real pain as they are not leaving enough room us motorists to pass safely? They are given cycle lanes so why not use them? I thought that they shouldn't be out of either the bus lane or cycle lane where one is provided. I followed one down the outer lane on victoria quay. Admittedly the cyclist was turning right to head back up wolf tone quay, but surely he could have merged in at the lights and not held up traffic?

I guess you treat them like you would any other vehicle, wait till it's safe to overtake, mirror, signal and proceed to overtake safely. If they are cycling in the center of the lane, there's usually a reason in my experience, things you wouldn't spot or hear in your car.

dearg lady

spurious. wrote: »

I followed one down the outer lane on victoria quay. Admittedly the cyclist was turning right to head back up wolf tone quay, but surely he could have merged in at the lights and not held up traffic?

Cyclists, like cars, have to merge when the opportunity arises. I would never hold up a car by choice, but if I need to merge to make a turn, I will take a safe opportunity and move into the correct lane, and this may result in me slowing a car down briefly.

unkel

There was legislation proposed that in a collision between a car and a bicycle, the car would always be at fault. No matter what. I don't know what the status of that is now

In the Netherlands legislation like that has already been in place for years

As others said, be very careful and give them lots of space. Perhaps legally the motorist is not (yet) responsible for any collisions, but morally he is.

Compton

They're annoying. Beep your horn when you're driving past to scare the crap out of them and shout abuse. Its the way forward.

opti0nal

unkel wrote: »

There was legislation proposed that in a collision between a car and a bicycle, the car would always be at fault. No matter what. I don't know what the status of that is now

Was that in Ireland?

Link please?

challengemaster

unkel wrote: »

There was legislation proposed that in a collision between a car and a bicycle, the car would always be at fault. No matter what. I don't know what the status of that is now

Equally as flawed as the one for pedestrians tbh, hopefully such nonsense never gets passed.

Mycroft H

unkel wrote: »

There was legislation proposed that in a collision between a car and a bicycle, the car would always be at fault. No matter what. I don't know what the status of that is now

In the Netherlands legislation like that has already been in place for years

As others said, be very careful and give them lots of space. Perhaps legally the motorist is not (yet) responsible for any collisions, but morally he is.

A blanket the motorist is "at fault" all of the time would be a bit silly imo.

I would prefer if the motorist is at fault almost all of the time unless the cyclist acted in negligence. Eg runs a red into oncoming traffic.

unkel

BX 19 wrote: »

A blanket the motorist is "at fault" all of the time would be a bit silly imo.

One would think that and one would think it unfair too. My best mate had to claim on his insurance when a cyclist, cycling the wrong way down a one way street and then cycling into the path of him (even though there was plenty of space). Extremely annoying and unfair (this was in the Netherlands)

But one can argue that a cyclist would not do that on purpose and overall it has made motorists more careful and more aware and the number of collisions between cars and cycles has dropped. Surely that's a good outcome?

CiniO

I often cycle on country road, which is very bendy with lots of blind bends. There is broken white line in the middle separating the lanes in both directions, but lanes are only about 2m wide (in some places more in some less).
I used to cycle on the left edge of the road, but drivers were overtaking me without keeping any distance, sometimes even straight in front of blind bends. Over last 4 years I was hit by car's mirror on my elbow twice on w different occasions, and car never stopped.

Now I ride exactly on the middle of the lane or even bit further right, and if car wants to overtake me, the have to move fully to the right edge of the road to overtake me. At the moment when they are ovetaking me, I move to the left, to make sure there is enough distance kept between me and the car.
That's the only way I can cycle safely, and I really don't give a sh*te that some cars are stock behind me for a while.

Alanstrainor

CiniO wrote: »

I often cycle on country road, which is very bendy with lots of blind bends. There is broken white line in the middle separating the lanes in both directions, but lanes are only about 2m wide (in some places more in some less).
I used to cycle on the left edge of the road, but drivers were overtaking me without keeping any distance, sometimes even straight in front of blind bends. Over last 4 years I was hit by car's mirror on my elbow twice on w different occasions, and car never stopped.

Now I ride exactly on the middle of the lane or even bit further right, and if car wants to overtake me, the have to move fully to the right edge of the road to overtake me. At the moment when they are ovetaking me, I move to the left, to make sure there is enough distance kept between me and the car.
That's the only way I can cycle safely, and I really don't give a sh*te that some cars are stock behind me for a while.

Spot on CiniO, that's what I would be doing in a similar situation.

zenno

Cyclists don't really bother me unless they do something dangerous but i'm never in a rush and would never allow myself to be rushed so i have plenty of time to allow the cyclist to position him/herself before theres enough room to overtake. most of these problems with cyclists are from drivers that have no patience and are always rushing and this is what will cause an accident.

Take your time and relax and it's all good.

buffalo

spurious. wrote: »

Admittedly the cyclist was turning right to head back up wolf tone quay, but surely he could have merged in at the lights and not held up traffic?

Have you realistically considered that alternate scenario? The cyclist keeps to the left-most of the four lanes, then comes to a complete halt at the outer traffic lights (pulling in and holding up traffic while they dismount, or just riding illegally onto the footpad while trying not to hit a pedestrian), waits for the lights to turn red for road traffic, walks to the central island, and then remount in front of the (hopefully still) stopped traffic in your lane. (Where they would be "holding up traffic" when going across the bridge anyway.) That might add what, three or four minutes to their journey?And by taking the lane, and acting as a car would, they added, what, 20 seconds to your journey? Sound fair?

Please have patience when other people's safety is at risk.

Mycroft H

unkel wrote: »

One would think that and one would think it unfair too. My best mate had to claim on his insurance when a cyclist, cycling the wrong way down a one way street and then cycling into the path of him (even though there was plenty of space). Extremely annoying and unfair (this was in the Netherlands)

But one can argue that a cyclist would not do that on purpose and overall it has made motorists more careful and more aware and the number of collisions between cars and cycles has dropped. Surely that's a good outcome?

As a cyclist that alone makes me happy.

It would have to be a situation though, as I mentioned before, where the motorist was always at fault unless the cyclist acted in gross negligence.

CiniO, I have to agree with you. Its what I do, city or country. Mé féin comes first on the bike. I've had an ignorant idiot try run me off the road near Intel outside leixlip. The pinch points on the verge pushed me into the middle of the road for a couple of hundred metres. Lovely gent behind me thought it would be fun to practice using the horn. I blew him a kiss, which made him more angry.



However, if there is a safe spot for me to pull in, I will and let the flow of traffic onwards.

There has to be a bit of give and take on both sides.

unkel

BX 19 wrote: »

There has to be a bit of give and take on both sides.

In an ideal world...

I am a cyclist too and in my experience in this country the awareness of motorists of cyclists is very poor (in line with the competence of the average Irish driver, which is very, very poor compared to any other European country I have driven in)

If such legislation would make motorists more aware / pay more attention, then I'm all for it

flyingsnail

I think there is a bit of tunnel vision by motorists when it comes to bad cyclists. We can all recall the time one scared the crap out of us by running a red, or coming towards us the wrong way down a one way street. But I bet you don’t give a second thought to the guy who obeyed the rules and just went about their business.

I don’t consider somebody who takes up a lane to be a bad cyclist, bad cyclists are the ones that break the law, run red lights and cycle on footpaths.

unkel wrote: »

In an ideal world...

I am a cyclist too and in my experience in this country the awareness of motorists of cyclists is very poor (in line with the competence of the average Irish driver, which is very, very poor compared to any other European country I have driven in)

If such legislation would make motorists more aware / pay more attention, then I'm all for it

I honestly think the only motorists in this country who are aware of cyclists are the ones who cycle themselves, or did so at some time in the past.

CiniO

unkel wrote: »

In an ideal world...

I am a cyclist too and in my experience in this country the awareness of motorists of cyclists is very poor (in line with the competence of the average Irish driver, which is very, very poor compared to any other European country I have driven in)

I might be wrong, but probably in most EU countries, there is a legal requirement to keep at least 1m distance from cyclist while overtaking. There is no such requirement in Ireland sadly.

challengemaster

unkel wrote: »

If such legislation would make motorists more aware / pay more attention, then I'm all for it

Being honest, such legislation would only lead to a lot more issues and hatred of cyclists in the country. Especially considering the lackadaisical attitude quite a few cyclists have towards any/all road traffic laws.

If you reversed the legislation, and say in the event of any crash a cyclist is liable - do you think it would lead to safer cycling? Surely it would make people think twice about cycling through a red light?

Mycroft H

CiniO wrote: »

I might be wrong, but probably in most EU countries, there is a legal requirement to keep at least 1m distance from cyclist while overtaking. There is no such requirement in Ireland sadly.

Sadly not, the only statute that exists is the requirement to overtake without inconveniencing other road users.

challengemaster wrote: »

Being honest, such legislation would only lead to a lot more issues and hatred of cyclists in the country. Especially considering the lackadaisical attitude quite a few cyclists have towards any/all road traffic laws.

If you reversed the legislation, and say in the event of any crash a cyclist is liable - do you think it would lead to safer cycling? Surely it would make people think twice about cycling through a red light?

Hatred? Perhaps depending on the person, but ultimately it would lead to respect to a lot of vulnerable road users then there is at the moment. It would only work, as I'm going to say for the third time, if the motorist was at fault unless the cyclist acted in gross negligence. People would generally act safer around cyclists if they knew if caused an accident the fault would instantly be pinned on them.

Plenty of cars run reds too, but far more cyclists do, but that is an attitude of "well I can get away with it, so I will do it", much like the attitude around drink driving was 20-30 years ago. Stronger enforcement is needed here.

challengemaster

BX 19 wrote: »

Hatred? Perhaps depending on the person, but ultimately it would lead to respect to a lot of vulnerable road users then there is at the moment. It would only work, as I'm going to say for the third time, if the motorist was at fault unless the cyclist acted in gross negligence. People would generally act safer around cyclists if they knew if caused an accident the fault would instantly be pinned on them.

Plenty of cars run reds too, but far more cyclists do, but that is an attitude of "well I can get away with it, so I will do it", much like the attitude around drink driving was 20-30 years ago. Stronger enforcement is needed here.

Being completely honest with you, when cyclists start complying the same as other road users with all laws they should, then I'll respect them.

Currently I see quite a lot of cyclists who will claim to be vulnerable road users yet do anything to put themselves in harms way without second thought. Cyclists are vulnerable, that goes two ways, road users be more cautious around them, and cyclists themselves being more cautious because they're at greater risk.

An obligatory "driver is wrong" law won't do any wonders for that either, I certainly can't see it doing any good.

The only fair thing to do is take every accident at face value, and assert blame based on that specific accident, just like with every other road traffic accident. If cyclists want to be considered equal road users, then apply by the same rules, this also means that if an accident happens, they go through the same process as if two cars had crashed.

tomasrojo

unkel wrote: »

One would think that and one would think it unfair too. My best mate had to claim on his insurance when a cyclist, cycling the wrong way down a one way street and then cycling into the path of him (even though there was plenty of space). Extremely annoying and unfair (this was in the Netherlands)

If the cyclist was that far in the wrong, the motorist shouldn't have been found to be at fault, if there were witnesses or any other evidence. The Dutch legislation places the assumption of fault on the motorist, but that's all. The motorist still has the right to show that he wasn't at fault.

http://ukcyclerules.com/2010/11/16/strict-liability-and-legal-protection-for-cyclists/

petethedrummer

challengemaster wrote: »

Being completely honest with you, when cyclists start complying the same as other road users with all laws they should, then I'll respect them.

I drive the M50 regularly, usually just a couple of kms under the speed limit anything more doesn't suit the Fiesta, why am I continually being passed by all these law abiding motorists?

On my cycle to work my light is often green and cars are routinely accelerating through the junction from the wrong direction. Maybe I'm imagining it, but they look like they're breaking the law.

Maybe its ok to break those laws though.

Oh and there are regularly cars in the bus lanes, cars stopped in cycle lanes. but thats alright. Breaking a red light on a bike is worse than all these.

Oh and not indicating when changing lanes.

Illegal U-turns.

Filling up yellow boxes.

Stopping on pedestrian crossings.

These things are all ok?

tomasrojo

BX 19 wrote: »

Plenty of cars run reds too, but far more cyclists do, but that is an attitude of "well I can get away with it, so I will do it", much like the attitude around drink driving was 20-30 years ago.

This is undoubtedly true. However, once one motorist stops for a red, the other motorists in the same lane don't have the option of breaking the red, which is decidedly not the case for cyclists.

zenno

In all fairness most of cyclists I have come across in swords malahide and dublin city are ok and don't cycle erratically but I have noticed a few that keep breaking red lights and skipping in and out of traffic erratically.

Another thing is always take into account the wind speed on very windy days as I have seen drivers in a rush trying to overtake cyclists and then the cyclist is blown out a bit by a gust and nearly hitting off the passenger side of a car, on this occasion the driver did not give sufficient space while overtaking. What drivers need to get into their head is rushing. Why the hell don't people give more time to themselves to get to their destination and leave earlier for their travels. It's always rush rush rush.

Mycroft H

challengemaster wrote: »

Being completely honest with you, when cyclists start complying the same as other road users with all laws they should, then I'll respect them.

Agreed. Has to work both ways though. Though given the standards of a proportion of cyclists and drivers, it is not going to happen overnight.

challengemaster wrote: »

Currently I see quite a lot of cyclists who will claim to be vulnerable road users yet do anything to put themselves in harms way without second thought. Cyclists are vulnerable, that goes two ways, road users be more cautious around them, and cyclists themselves being more cautious because they're at greater risk.

Goes back to my first point. Better cyclist/driver education and enforcement of the laws would help here. Has to work both ways too, plenty of drivers put cyclists in harms way every day.

challengemaster wrote: »

An obligatory "driver is wrong" law won't do any wonders for that either, I certainly can't see it doing any good.

The only fair thing to do is take every accident at face value, and assert blame based on that specific accident, just like with every other road traffic accident. If cyclists want to be considered equal road users, then apply by the same rules, this also means that if an accident happens, they go through the same process as if two cars had crashed.

I said that myself. It needs to be properly set out if its going to ever be even become a law. However, I don't think the idea is to punish the driver so to speak, but rather to protect the cyclist by making the driver more cautious. I'll agree with you, there needs to be a common sense approach, but I would not say no to harsher penalties for drivers in accidents relating cyclists.

All this would work in an ideal world (the Netherlands is about as close as we can get), but this is Ireland, so realistically its not going to happen in my lifetime.

Chris_Heilong

Can of worms OP, you cant mention Cyclists without the Cycle "club" jumping on you, best just dont talk about it IMO, there is a lot of 'them vs us' mentality. But hey thats human nature and Im sure If I was a cyclist I would be jumping in to defend my side too.

That been said, next time you feel a cyclist is behaving inappropriately just beep your horn, unlike car drivers they dont have to have a license or even know the ROTR to go out on a bike. A gentle beep will let them know they are in the wrong and hopefully correct this behavior

Monty Burnz

unkel wrote: »

One would think that and one would think it unfair too. My best mate had to claim on his insurance when a cyclist, cycling the wrong way down a one way street and then cycling into the path of him (even though there was plenty of space).

AFAIK there is no 'wrong' way for cyclists on one-way streets in the Netherlands as they are not restricted to one-way for cyclists. If your friend knew this, perhaps he could have avoided hitting the cyclist?

sheesh

spurious. wrote: »

Hello lads,

They are given cycle lanes so why not use them? I thought that they shouldn't be out of either the bus lane or cycle lane where one is provided. I followed one down the outer lane on victoria quay. Admittedly the cyclist was turning right to head back up wolf tone quay, but surely he could have merged in at the lights and not held up traffic?

What you are describing there if another road user using the road. the reason they are in the middle of the lane (I imagine) is to stop people in their lane trying to overtake them and knocking them down it is probably safer for a cyclist to fight for their space on the road than try encourage cars to over take.

One thing that frightens me as a driver is a cyclist that pulls out to go around a parked car i prefer them to stay out and travel in straight lines rather than weave in and out of the lane.

petethedrummer

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Can of worms OP, you cant mention Cyclists without the Cycle "club" jumping on you, best just dont talk about it IMO, there is a lot of 'them vs us' mentality. But hey thats human nature and Im sure If I was a cyclist I would be jumping in to defend my side too.

Most cyclists also drive. I know I do, I used to drive an awful lot for work. I can see it from both points of view. And I have never ever once, not even minutely had my life endangered by a cyclist while I have been driving. Maybe a few posters here have had it happen but it can't have happened very often and could not even remotely approach the number of near misses or incidents you've had with other cars.

As a driver and a cyclist my biggest worry is other motorised vehicle users, mostly car drivers.

Monty Burnz

challengemaster wrote: »

If you reversed the legislation, and say in the event of any crash a cyclist is liable - do you think it would lead to safer cycling? Surely it would make people think twice about cycling through a red light?

More likely it would make everyone think twice about cycling at all and traffic congestion would get worse than ever as the cyclists who have an option pile into their cars.

Monty Burnz

challengemaster wrote: »

Being completely honest with you, when cyclists start complying the same as other road users with all laws they should, then I'll respect them.

So you'll disrespect them all just in case they are one of the ones who breaks red lights?

I take the same approach with black people, because I hear some of them are criminals... :rolleyes:

unkel

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If your friend knew this, perhaps he could have avoided hitting the cyclist?

That's the crux of things

My mate could not have avoided that idiot cyclist catapulting himself into his car.

Extremely unfair and all that this legislation has reduced the number of accidents between cars and bicycles in the Netherlands

spurious.

BX 19 wrote: »

There is only one outcome with a collision between a car and a cyclist, and its not a positive one for the cyclist. Give them loads of room. Intelligent cyclists are intentionally not giving you room to pass them in the same lane as there is not enough room for them and a car in the one lane although it may appear that there is from a drivers perspective. The recommended width for leaving between cyclists and pedestrians etc is 1.5m when overtaking which really can't be done safely without crossing lanes.

By taking their lane, so to speak, they are forcing you to have a bit of a think, pop the indicator on, check their mirrors and overtake safely. Its all good practice.

That makes sense. I'm not driving too long. I do try to be careful around them, trying to understand their actions and motives makes it easier to understand what their doing, if that makes any sense. With the rising cost of petrol, its not going to be long until I'm pedaling around.

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

That been said, next time you feel a cyclist is behaving inappropriately just beep your horn, unlike car drivers they dont have to have a license or even know the ROTR to go out on a bike. A gentle beep will let them know they are in the wrong and hopefully correct this behavior

I may have only passed my driving test, but I still know that's a stupid attitude to have. Promoting hostility all round. Nice one.

tomasrojo

unkel wrote: »

That's the crux of things

My mate could not have avoided that idiot cyclist catapulting himself into his car.

Extremely unfair and all that this legislation has reduced the number of accidents between cars and bicycles in the Netherlands

As I said, the Dutch don't impose strict liability; your friend should have had the option of showing that the cyclist caused the collision, assuming that was the case.

challengemaster

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So you'll disrespect them all just in case they are one of the ones who breaks red lights?

I take the same approach with black people, because I hear some of them are criminals... :rolleyes:

Respect is earned, not expected.

Monty Burnz

challengemaster wrote: »

Respect is earned, not expected.

That's what I tell the black people.

Chris_Heilong

spurious. wrote: »

That makes sense. I'm not driving too long. I do try to be careful around them, trying to understand their actions and motives makes it easier to understand what their doing, if that makes any sense. With the rising cost of petrol, its not going to be long until I'm pedaling around.




I may have only passed my driving test, but I still know that's a stupid attitude to have. Promoting hostility all round. Nice one.

Why would there be hostility, if the guy has moved too far into the center of the road and is becoming a danger it is you obligation to let him know for his own safety as well as yours. The horn has saved me a good few times mostly with cars reversing and not checking the road beforehand not had to beep a cycelist yet but it is dangerous having to move out so far to overtake them but this has been argued so many times before.

Mycroft H

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Why would there be hostility, if the guy has moved too far into the center of the road and is becoming a danger it is you obligation to let him know for his own safety as well as yours. The horn has saved me a good few times mostly with cars reversing and not checking the road beforehand not had to beep a cycelist yet but it is dangerous having to move out so far to overtake them but this has been argued so many times before.

How is it a danger?

Its good practice to give them plenty of room when overtaking them and if that puts you into another lane is inconsequential.

Monty Burnz

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Why would there be hostility, if the guy has moved too far into the center of the road and is becoming a danger it is you obligation to let him know for his own safety as well as yours.

A cyclist often needs to be in the centre of the road exactly for his/her safety.

fasttalkerchat

Part of the problem with some drivers attitudes to cyclists comes from how we are taught to cycle as kids. As a kid I would have assumed that a cyclist has to move on to the footpath to allow cars to pass if it is not possible for the car to pass normally. Roads are for cars etc.

Monty Burnz

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Part of the problem with some drivers attitudes to cyclists comes from how we are taught to cycle as kids. As a kid I would have assumed that a cyclist has to move on to the footpath to allow cars to pass if it is not possible for the car to pass normally. Roads are for cars etc.

Good point. Being told as a kid (for your safety) to stay out of the way of cars at all costs seems to translate as adults thinking that bikes have no right to be there at all.

In addition, I'd wager that 95% of complaints about cyclists come from people who have never tried cycling in an urban environment, or not since they were kids in an estate.

fasttalkerchat

Monty Burnz wrote: »

In addition, I'd wager that 95% of complaints about cyclists come from people who have never tried cycling in an urban environment, or not since they were kids in an estate.

I fit into that category myself. My stupid logic when I started driving was to treat cyclists as any other vehicle moving at 10mph on a 60mph road.

John_Rambo

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

if the guy has moved too far into the center of the road and is becoming a danger it is you obligation to let him know for his own safety as well as yours

How is a cyclist a danger to you if he's in the middle of the lane (not road)?

How is he a danger to him/herself?

The only danger here is to the cyclist if some moron driver decides to try a dangerous overtake?

You say that you just passed your test, my advice is to keep the horn for your girl/boyfriend, relax and if you find yourself being late for appointments get up earlier.

opti0nal

Monty Burnz wrote: »

In addition, I'd wager that 95% of complaints about cyclists come from people who have never tried cycling in an urban environment

...and who don't themselves stop on amber.

It's very peculiar the way some motorists only ever complain about cyclists breaking red lights when it's very clear for all to see how many drivers don't stop on amber when they should.

If it's inconsiderate for a cyclist to occupy a lane while turning, what does this say about on-street parking in cycle lanes? This is also permitted, but is very inconsiderate and a waste of road space.

We shouldn't have double standards.

corktina

i was always taught that all vehicles are entitled to the full width of their lane and if you want to pass you should (mostly) be in the opposite carriageway.

Yes, cyclists take the P at traffic lights, but so do many drivers and more would if the guy in front hadn't stopped. Usually it is the case that the actual point at which jumping the light becomes dangerous isn't reached.

alias no.9

unkel wrote: »

That's the crux of things

My mate could not have avoided that idiot cyclist catapulting himself into his car.

Extremely unfair and all that this legislation has reduced the number of accidents between cars and bicycles in the Netherlands

A system that looked after the personal injuries of cyclists by means of a general levy on motor insurance, where the driver was not at fault, would be fairer. The cyclist is looked after with no additional penalty on the driver. Obviously, any drivers found to be at fault should pay via their own policy.

DirkVoodoo

challengemaster wrote: »

Respect is earned, not expected.

Ah, you are confusing respect with courtesy. You have no obligation to show anyone any respect on the roads, that's why laws are there. Impartial and all that they are.

However, you should really show courtesy to all road users. As should they. Is your respect so valuable and are you such a perfect driver that we should all be seeking so hard to earn it?

Please, give me a break.

Bad behaviour comes from all quarters, people who like to single out one group are just displaying a massive amount of ignorance. Being stuck in traffic sucks, don't vent your frustrations on someone else. Seriously, consider how much time on your commute is wasted through lights, cars blocking junctions, people not reacting to lights, people breaking lights, illegally parked cars, people turning right where they shouldn't...if you can honestly say that a bike has been as great a disruption as any of the above, I'll eat my casquet.

I don't think I've ever deliberately been held up by a bike when driving, I may have had to slow down and overtake, like when overtaking a parked car. But I have to do that on the bike too.