Wooden axel

looksee

I'm looking for advice on how to make/get made a simple wooden axle. I'm thinking of something for a really basic (primative/medieval) full size hand cart. I have looked on line but there isn't anything like what I am thinking of, maybe there is a book would have some information? I am probably completely out of my depth here, can anyone offer any suggestions? (I'm in the south east).

galwaydude18

looksee wrote: »

I'm looking for advice on how to make/get made a simple wooden axle. I'm thinking of something for a really basic (primative/medieval) full size hand cart. I have looked on line but there isn't anything like what I am thinking of, maybe there is a book would have some information? I am probably completely out of my depth here, can anyone offer any suggestions? (I'm in the south east).

How long do you need it? What diameter?what material etc.?

looksee

galwaydude18 wrote: »

How long do you need it? What diameter?what material etc.?

That's kinda what I want to know. I presume it will have to be of some sort of hardwood and I assume it would be about 3ft between the wheels. What I want to know is, if for example it was a square axle that the body of the cart was fixed directly to, would it be sufficient to have a turned section on each end to slide the wheels onto, would it need something like iron washers either side of the wheel - one held in place by a wedge into a hole in the end of the turned part. Is that way too simplistic?

galwaydude18

Why not turn the ends of the axel so that they fit into a bearing and that bearing can then fit into a rail. The bearing would need to be firmly glued into place.

looksee

Not sure about bearings and rails, though I think I can guess. I doubt a primative/medieval cart would have had bearings though? I am looking for a wood and simple iron assembly.

baords dyslexic

Did you take a look at what google had to offer?

If you start with the historical aspect then there's lots to read up on.

http://www.humanist.de/rome/rts/wagon.html - How the Romans did it.

http://www.lostcrafts.com/Blacksmith-70.html - bit of blacksmiths info including timber used.

- afaik Rock Maple would be a good material as its very hard.

looksee

Oh those are good sites, BD. I had done all the medieval/Viking/Saxon stuff but none of them showed detail about how the wheel actually sat on the axle. The Roman site does show a metal sleeve on the axle. There are some good pics around the internet but they don't show exactly how things hold together, and how much you need by way of 'washers' on the wheels.

I think for what I want it would have to be solid wheels - where you put planks together one way then another lot at right angles and nail them together with iron nails. They didn't necessarily have a metal outer rim.

I am not sure how sturdy the inner hole that the axle goes through would be, having wood grain at right angles would suggest to me that it would wear at an angle. I suppose the wheels could be swapped round at intervals though, the wheels would be able to be dismantled from the body anyway so that seems logical. I think you would expect to have to replace the wheels fairly frequently anyway, depending on how much use it got.

I did see one site that talked about 'greased' wheels and axles, though I would have thought you would need a load of grease on it anyway, I couldn't figure out what was special about these, it was on a US site and seemed to be a specific type of assembly.

baords dyslexic

The link to the Roman wagons mentioned a recipe for grease.

Found this link http://www.bloodandsawdust.com/sca/barrow.html so its only one wheel on a barrow but still an very interesting project.

And this one closer to home and back to 2 wheels http://homepage.eircom.net/~archaeology/chariot.htm

slowburner

Link here to a (longish) old Swedish film, which shows the process of constructing a cartwheel - I'm not so sure if it shows sufficient detail about the axle/hub assembly, but it gives an idea of the work involved, and it should be of interest to some of the turners here.
(Note the use of the square carpenter's chisel, bevel up)

Looksee, could you give more info on the dimensions? Sounds like you're making a chariot!
There are two kinds of axle: a live axle is where both the axle and the wheels turn together. A dead axle is where the wheels turn but the axle remains stationary. Each has its own advantages, in terms of adjoining the cart body.
I think Hornbeam was the wood of choice - where available, Holly was also used.

baords dyslexic

Another video from an old master Jack Hargreaves ~ Cart building that and the other Jack Hargreaves links on that page should keep slowburner busy for a while if he's not seen them before

Note the above link only shows a metal axle.

looksee

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/londo42/2871524/in/album/89507

This is the kind of thing I am talking about. Specifically not sophisticated, something your average medieval/viking farmer would have put together himself.

I can see how the wheel is held onto the axle but I am not sure how much structure there would have to be on the in-side of the wheel. Maybe I am over thinking this and it is as simple as just rounding (turning?) the ends of a square length of timber sufficient to slide on the wheels and put a wooden 'washer' (square,in the pic) and peg on the outside.

baords dyslexic

OK so I think I can see where your going wrong, the square "washer" isn't a washer afaik, its part of the wheel, probably pegged to it to make the wheel thicker at that point to give more bearing area so the wheels don't wobble.

Might be wrong but thats my take on it

looksee

Ah, good point. Wouldn't that mean that the wheel would be binding against the peg though? I think you are right though. I wonder is that a split in the axle that would somehow widen the end of the axle and keep the wheel on?

slowburner

I was thinking that too. What's to stop the peg binding?
I'm guessing that the split is natural because there is no sign of a wedge to keep it open.
Modellers use an end cap to secure the wheel. This is essentially a wooden cup which is fixed to the end of the axle. It serves as both a retainer and a washer. It's the wooden equivalent of the circlip. Any turner could easily make one.

Begob, here we are trying to reinvent the wheel.

baords dyslexic

But is it a wedge or is it just a pin? I would guess the wheel is a sloppy fit and the pin just stops it falling off and does little to hold it tight. The wheel is thickened with the extra bit of wood to provide a larger brearing area and reduce the wobble you'd get if the wheel had a thin "bearing". If the pin breaks then I'm sure the nearest hedge row will provide another.

looksee

Thanks for all the replies, I think the next move is to make a start on it (not just me, it will be a team effort - the fellas will make the effort and I will gaffer (if they let me ). Its not an entirely massive investment in money, I have a substantial bit of old teak that I think will make the axle and the rest will be recycled pallets etc.

I'll let you know if we succeed.

baords dyslexic

looksee wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies, I think the next move is to make a start on it (not just me, it will be a team effort - the fellas will make the effort and I will gaffer (if they let me ). Its not an entirely massive investment in money, I have a substantial bit of old teak that I think will make the axle and the rest will be recycled pallets etc.

I'll let you know if we succeed.

Those Vikings must have travelled some to get that bit of old teak

looksee

Yes, yes I know. Its hardwood, its free, and it won't show.

Unless you have a nice bit of well seasoned oak going spare?

Cedrus

On 'Rome wasn't built in a day' on Channel 4 they built a wooden cart, it's probably still available on 4OD, not a lot of detail about the fabrication but they had a lot of problems with the stability of it.

looksee

Cedrus wrote: »

On 'Rome wasn't built in a day' on Channel 4 they built a wooden cart, it's probably still available on 4OD, not a lot of detail about the fabrication but they had a lot of problems with the stability of it.

I saw a couple of episodes of that and I thought at the time that they were not so much building as cobbling together with a bunch of amateurs!

The point they all seemed to miss was that the builders would have been skilled workmen, the people they were using needed much more time to experiment with processes to see how things might have been done. There was an attitude on the part of the producers of 'bet you can't do this' and they were as concerned about the interaction of the tired, cold, frustrated workers as producing anything useful.

baords dyslexic

looksee wrote: »

Yes, yes I know. Its hardwood, its free, and it won't show.

Unless you have a nice bit of well seasoned oak going spare?

Only joking I'm sure the vikings would have also used anything that washed up on the shore

I'm sure you have seen these again not exactly viking but they could have made the simple wooden ones.

You'd be welcome to the oak if I had any of suitable dimensions (I used to collect off cuts for free from a yard during the boom) but I'm down to a few thin lengths of oak now.

Cedrus

looksee wrote: »

I saw a couple of episodes of that and I thought at the time that they were not so much building as cobbling together with a bunch of amateurs!

The point they all seemed to miss was that the builders would have been skilled workmen, the people they were using needed much more time to experiment with processes to see how things might have been done. There was an attitude on the part of the producers of 'bet you can't do this' and they were as concerned about the interaction of the tired, cold, frustrated workers as producing anything useful.

I think the point was that they were skilled craftsmen but their skills were of the wrong century/millenium. They proved by their errors that the roman craftsmen were extremely skilled despite the apparent rough edges. The carpenter in particular was a finishing shopfitter and he totally f'd up the roof, but the cart was something he was proud of.

I just posted this because it shows a cart actually in use (until the safety aspects led to using modern wheelbarrows instead).

looksee

Yes I didn't mean to suggest they were not skilled, but they were out of their depth and the producers seemed to stir things up to keep it entertaining. I would have preferred to see less stirring and more solutions.

I found the series but I could not find the cart.

As to the tools, I am proposing to make a shave horse over the summer so I am keeping an eye open for convincingly old looking tools - again I know they will be a bit (!) anachronistic but really they haven't changed that much