New stocking rate confirmed?

eamon11

lads,

new farmer here

i was in Teagsc today and I was told that this new rate of 0.3 head per unit(up from 0.15 head per unit) was not yet confirmed by the department? I thought this was already changed?

Tks a lot,

Eamon

johngalway

That's interesting if correct...

iron man

Can somebody please please break down the complicated equation that allows you to calculate your stocking density. I've been reading the journal today and I'm totally confused. Say a farmer has 30h. What amount of sheep does he need to keep? How do you work out the calculation?

Thanks in advance

eamon11

and how many cattle for 16 hectares?

Farmer Pudsey

iron man wrote: »

Can somebody please please break down the complicated equation that allows you to calculate your stocking density. I've been reading the journal today and I'm totally confused. Say a farmer has 30h. What amount of sheep does he need to keep? How do you work out the calculation?

Thanks in advance

You would need a minimum of 30 sheep.

and how many cattle for 16 hectares?

depending on what type of stock see below

Livestock Units
1 ewe or Ram or goat=.15 Lu
weanling/Calf over 6 months = .6LU
Cow+Calf(to 6Months) =1LU
Bulls over 12 Months =1LU
Bullock over 2 Years = 1LU
Dairy Cow = 1LU
Horse/Donkey (registered) =1LU

patrickn

The changes to stocking density are not as simple as 0.3 LU/HA. It depends on your stocking rate in 2011 whereby some farmers can get by on 0.15 LU/HA. Also there are exemptions for people in REPS, A.E.O.S. or restricted due to Commonage Framework Plans.

eamon11

tks lads,

all I know is this last 2 years there was not enough for the min stock rate. The place was neglected and I am just trying to start again from scratch. Bought 4 yearlings the other day and a tractor. Not sure what to do yet but its a start. There is about 16 hectares.
Last year there was 2.4 hd. Before my father sold them. Since then there has been nothing till 2 days ago.
I dont bel;ieve we have any special exemptions, no reps or aoes (whatever that is)
Just trying to figure out the min for now in order to avail of grants etc. Need every penny and I hope to build up a little at a time.

tks a lot

johngalway

AEOS is the environmental scheme that came about after the REPS scheme was closed down.

benjydagg

eamon11 wrote: »

tks lads,

all I know is this last 2 years there was not enough for the min stock rate. The place was neglected and I am just trying to start again from scratch. Bought 4 yearlings the other day and a tractor. Not sure what to do yet but its a start. There is about 16 hectares.
Last year there was 2.4 hd. Before my father sold them. Since then there has been nothing till 2 days ago.
I dont bel;ieve we have any special exemptions, no reps or aoes (whatever that is)
Just trying to figure out the min for now in order to avail of grants etc. Need every penny and I hope to build up a little at a time.

tks a lot

Why did you buy a tractor?

Farmer Pudsey

eamon11 wrote: »

tks lads,

all I know is this last 2 years there was not enough for the min stock rate. The place was neglected and I am just trying to start again from scratch. Bought 4 yearlings the other day and a tractor. Not sure what to do yet but its a start. There is about 16 hectares.
Last year there was 2.4 hd. Before my father sold them. Since then there has been nothing till 2 days ago.
I dont bel;ieve we have any special exemptions, no reps or aoes (whatever that is)
Just trying to figure out the min for now in order to avail of grants etc. Need every penny and I hope to build up a little at a time.

tks a lot

I work on the presumption that the stocking rate would be 0.3/HA. as you will have to have for six months. That means 32 ewes or 8 yearlings or 5 two year old cattle/cows or any combination of these

just do it

eamon11 wrote: »

tks lads,

all I know is this last 2 years there was not enough for the min stock rate. The place was neglected and I am just trying to start again from scratch. Bought 4 yearlings the other day and a tractor. Not sure what to do yet but its a start. There is about 16 hectares.
Last year there was 2.4 hd. Before my father sold them. Since then there has been nothing till 2 days ago.
I dont bel;ieve we have any special exemptions, no reps or aoes (whatever that is)
Just trying to figure out the min for now in order to avail of grants etc. Need every penny and I hope to build up a little at a time.

tks a lot

How many fields/ divisions are there? The best thing you can do to improve the place on the cheap is divide it into small paddocks and graze them bare before moving the stock onto the next one. Look renting out the silage field(s) for silage. Good luck with it

eamon11

tks lads,

I bought the tractor cos an old neighbour who knew I was back called me over. He is practically on his deathbed and wanted to sell me his very reliable tractor. In fairness its a great little tractor with a good big cab and very little work done. I can put an extra seat in for my little lad. I didnt really need one yet but I figure I will some day. And I got it dirt cheap.

there are 4 divisions, biut at the moment 2 are still rented out.

appreciate the advice and words of encouragement.

benjydagg

eamon11 wrote: »

tks lads,

I bought the tractor cos an old neighbour who knew I was back called me over. He is practically on his deathbed and wanted to sell me his very reliable tractor. In fairness its a great little tractor with a good big cab and very little work done. I can put an extra seat in for my little lad. I didnt really need one yet but I figure I will some day. And I got it dirt cheap.

there are 4 divisions, biut at the moment 2 are still rented out.

appreciate the advice and words of encouragement.

Well done. We need new blood in agriculture. Look at buying entitlements instead of cattle. €300/ha can be bought for 1.5 times value. 2 years left in the current scheme so it is will at a minimum pay for itself. Then in the new system, you will gain as I think entitlements are here to stay. Cattle are a gamble. And let someone else graze your land on a short term basis.
Make sure all your paperwork is in order.

just do it

eamon11 wrote: »

tks lads,

I bought the tractor cos an old neighbour who knew I was back called me over. He is practically on his deathbed and wanted to sell me his very reliable tractor. In fairness its a great little tractor with a good big cab and very little work done. I can put an extra seat in for my little lad. I didnt really need one yet but I figure I will some day. And I got it dirt cheap.

there are 4 divisions, biut at the moment 2 are still rented out.

appreciate the advice and words of encouragement.

What tractor is it? You were right to buy it when you knew its history like that. It made your neighbour happy too which by the sounds of it was a nice thing to do. The young lad will love driving around with you

bob charles

Will animals transfered into the land owner for temporary grazing count towards their LU for the DAS? So the land owner wont own the animals but they will be grazing their lands?

Also it the land owner only just met the 0.15lu/ha last year, will they have to be stocked this year to an average .3lu/ha and have stock for 6 continuous months to qualify

eamon11

tks lads,

its a universal 533. 1994. Very good nick.

Benjy, appreciate the advice about the entitlements. I have talked to a few people however and many think the entitlement system will very soon change and payments will be based on acreage, rather than amount of stock/entitlements so its hard to know what to do. At the moment they have low value entitlements. Not having cattle on the land would mean missing out on the DAS.

rahin man

The killer with stocking density is it is an average over 12 months. im in the organic scheme alongside reps4 and for the past 2 years they have insisted in 0.5 lu/ha which would equate to 10 cows on 50 acres all year (you can multply out from that)

My point is 40 yearling heifers summer grazing may not keep the avg s/r up.

keep going

bob charles wrote: »

Will animals transfered into the land owner for temporary grazing count towards their LU for the DAS? So the land owner wont own the animals but they will be grazing their lands?

Also it the land owner only just met the 0.15lu/ha last year, will they have to be stocked this year to an average .3lu/ha and have stock for 6 continuous months to qualify

was in teagsc today and was told that its 0.15 over the 12 months or 0.3 over 6 consecutive months BUT you must have had a stocking rate over 0.3 LAST YEAR to qualify.sounds weird but 2011 stocking rate is going to catch people out.also he said that animals temperarlly transfered may not be accepted this year.

bob charles

keep going wrote: »

was in teagsc today and was told that its 0.15 over the 12 months or 0.3 over 6 consecutive months BUT you must have had a stocking rate over 0.3 LAST YEAR to qualify.sounds weird but 2011 stocking rate is going to catch people out.also he said that animals temperarlly transfered may not be accepted this year.

That is my reading of the situation aswell, It seems to have being very badly worded from what I have read as to what happens when a farmer was just over 0.15lu/ha last year. Its particular harsh if this is the case for a farm that is in my extended families control. Last year they decided to reclaim about 50% of the land and only keep the minimum to keep the rest of the land in good enough nick. After spend over 20k on the job and seems they now wont be entitled to DAS unless there is a force majeure

larthehar

Interesting post, wasn't aware of this.. Just after breaking out on my own with a new herd number this year and own land... 41 hectares.. I had assumed the min stocking rate was .3LU so i have a total of 13LU with weanlings... considering on paper this is my 1st year.. where does that leave me looking back at 2011??

God Damn Government!!!

eamon11

I hear ya, I am in the same boat.

5live

larthehar wrote: »

Interesting post, wasn't aware of this.. Just after breaking out on my own with a new herd number this year and own land... 41 hectares.. I had assumed the min stocking rate was .3LU so i have a total of 13LU with weanlings... considering on paper this is my 1st year.. where does that leave me looking back at 2011??

God Damn Government!!!

I would imagine you are elegible for an exemption as you couldnt have a stocking rate last year as you werent farming. Best get onto someone in the local dept who knows their stuff and see what they know. And then get onto your IFA/ICMSA/ICSA rep, if you are a member,(even if you are not, they wont press you to join) and ask them to find out and make a case for your elegibility

restive

I got a letter today telling me that i did not meet the new stocking rate for 2011. I was not expecting it. Surprised as i thought i was above it.

Dirac98

Yes, I got that letter on Monday, not impressed as I thought I was ok on the density as well.
Spoke to my Reps planner who told me to sign the form and send it to them and they'd sort it, so we will wait and see if we get any DAS this year...oh happy days!

:mad:

iron man

Got the letter today and I'm really annoyed.... We were doing our calculations based on 0.15lu as we are full time farmers and keep stock all year round. I can't understand why they say we should be 0.30 lu. I thought that was for guys that kept stock for three or 6 months. I thought that the whole idea of this was to cut them from the process, now it appears that they want to cut more guys out. Where does one go from here. I think that on reading the application form we will have to fall into category 2 and just put our hands up and say that we got it wrong.....



Another question.... Does this mean that I will have to increase my stock to come up to 0.3 lu

restive

Is the minimum stocking rate .3 units for 12 months of the year?

patrickn

A further sting in the tail on these changes awaits farmers. If you do not meet the 0.3LU./ha in 2011 you are not only knocked out of 2012 payment but also 2013.

restive

I phoned the department today. They said that they are making the calculations based on my stocking rate for the 3 highest months of the year. However the age of the cattle is taken into account. My rate worked out at .28 units.

theaceofspies

patrickn wrote: »

A further sting in the tail on these changes awaits farmers. If you do not meet the 0.3LU./ha in 2011 you are not only knocked out of 2012 payment but also 2013.

A few chickens coming home to roost now lads.:eek:

What's the betting "our" Minister will attempt to stitch in the new DAS rules to the forthcoming CAP reform. That would make for a nice SFP at the end of the year for us small farmers!

iron man

Just off the phone to a nice girl in the dept. very helpfull but not able to bridge the gap between 0.28lu and 0.3lu...... Looks like I'm going to have to plead a category 2 and say we live in mountainous area..... (which we do).

Bummer

Any one any suggestions on what to say, or what to include.....

restive

iron man wrote: »

Just off the phone to a nice girl in the dept. very helpfull but not able to bridge the gap between 0.28lu and 0.3lu...... Looks like I'm going to have to plead a category 2 and say we live in mountainous area..... (which we do).

Bummer

Any one any suggestions on what to say, or what to include.....

I will certainly be including the fact that i am farming the river suck callows in my submission. The last line of paragraph one of the letter I received refers to SPA's (special protected areas). Roughly 70% of my land comes under this heading since 2010. Of course it is unfarmable since it is under water right now!

Find out if your land is covered by any environmental schemes. Contact the National Park & Wildlife service for your area and see do they have any interest in your property. The last line of paragraph one refers to "Land of high nature value of low productivity land".

supersean1999

how is it legal to back date the rules of a scheme, and basically kick people out, i got the letter but im in reps 4 hense lower lu, so im fine, but i really feel for a lot of people , all this to save 7m, now its clear why this city minister was picked for agriculture, his votes wont be affected, but some of his buddies will be

grange mac

Lads,

How does one go about registering 2 donkeys? Have two and they may come in as handy units.

patrickn

You have to call out your Vet and he will do out a marking form for each donkey. Then send this form along with a fee and application form you will find on the Horse Sport Ireland site

NewBeefFarmer

supersean1999 wrote: »

how is it legal to back date the rules of a scheme, and basically kick people out, i got the letter but im in reps 4 hense lower lu, so im fine, but i really feel for a lot of people , all this to save 7m, now its clear why this city minister was picked for agriculture, his votes wont be affected, but some of his buddies will be

i was wondering was i the only person thinking this!. . .

supersean1999

NewBeefFarmer wrote: »

i was wondering was i the only person thinking this!. . .

its a bit of a joke really, and they have pushed it though v easy, only the eu stopped them doing it months ago, our ifa were very quiet,

patrickn

In the last Budget our Minister estimated that saving of 27 Million would be made in the D.A.S. payment by increasing stocking rates etc. Now his Dept. is telling him that only 7 Million max will be saved.

So when Mr. Noonan calls in Mr. Coveney to see how the savings for last year are going and what new plans he has for savings for this years Bubdet cuts of 3.5 Billion overall, I think will be an interesting conversation.

I would not be holding my breath for A.E.O.S 3 to be announced in those circumstances.

supersean1999

iv no real problem with the principle of if , you should farm to get paid, but some people have been reduced in reps by 50% of there stock, and are expected to double in a year, its complete nonsense,

NewBeefFarmer

can someone confirm,

is it possible that in 2011 I satisfied the rules then, and because in 2012 they changed the rules applicable to 2011, I don't satisfy now?

how is this fair? . . if you played within the rules at the time, or like me did your best to reach that target, how can I be seen as a none complier a yr later?

I'm relying on this to keep building the farm. . . :mad:

I hope im reading it wrong

patrickn

NewBeefFarmer wrote: »

can someone confirm,

is it possible that in 2011 I satisfied the rules then, and because in 2012 they changed the rules applicable to 2011, I don't satisfy now?

how is this fair? . . if you played within the rules at the time, or like me did your best to reach that target, how can I be seen as a none complier a yr later?

I'm relying on this to keep building the farm. . . :mad:

I hope im reading it wrong

You may have complied with the rules in 2011 and got paid for 2011 but the Minister has decided to change the rules for payment in 2012. However he has made eligibility retrospective ie. would your stock levels then comply with new rules for 2012.

If they dont then no matter what you do about increasing stock in 2012 to comply you are not eligible for a payment this year or next year.

NewBeefFarmer

patrickn wrote: »

You may have complied with the rules in 2011 and got paid for 2011 but the Minister has decided to change the rules for payment in 2012. However he has made eligibility retrospective ie. would your stock levels then comply with new rules for 2012.

If they dont then no matter what you do about increasing stock in 2012 to comply you are not eligible for a payment this year or next year.

my stock levels for sure comply with 2012 rules.

I have 12+ Bullocks on 11hect and will have for 6mths +

so for me 2012 is fine, 2011 is catching me out. . .

patrickn

NewBeefFarmer wrote: »

my stock levels for sure comply with 2012 rules.

I have 12+ Bullocks on 11hect and will have for 6mths +

so for me 2012 is fine, 2011 is catching me out. . .

In 2011 you would have needed 3.3 LU/HA to comply with new rules. If you had not were you a new entrant or was there some restriction on stocking levels

NewBeefFarmer

patrickn wrote: »

In 2011 you would have needed 3.3 LU/HA to comply with new rules. If you had not were you a new entrant or was there some restriction on stocking levels

just to confirm, bullocks under 2 yrs old and under is .6,

im missing by half,

reasoning, terminally ill immediate family member followed by death early this year lead to little or no time for farming. .

year on year the land was always stocked, all my life anyway with 12/16/20 cattle sometimes. . .

and you mean to tell me as it stands we could miss out on 2 yrs payments. . .

cj maxx

In 2011 you would have needed 3.3 LU/HA to comply with new rules. ??.
how did you work that out? im not being smart i really would like to know how to work out stocking densities:o

NewBeefFarmer

11 hect X .3 = 3.3units. .

and if one of me bullocks is .6. . then i would have needed 3.3/.6 = 6 bullocks to satisfy

patrickn

NewBeefFarmer wrote: »

just to confirm, bullocks under 2 yrs old and under is .6,

im missing by half,

reasoning, terminally ill immediate family member followed by death early this year lead to little or no time for farming. .

year on year the land was always stocked, all my life anyway with 12/16/20 cattle sometimes. . .

and you mean to tell me as it stands we could miss out on 2 yrs payments. . .

If you have received the form from D.A.S. you will see that there are various categories you can apply under to exempt you from the 2011 stocking rate. I would suggest you consider Category 6 : Miscellaneous.

I deal with the D.A.S. section on a regular basis and find they are very accomodating when it comes to a genuine case like yours. Make your case as strong as possible to them detailing stock levels in the past and for 2012. The staff there find these new proposals as preposterous as we do I assure you.

NewBeefFarmer

Thanks Patrickn. . . . . I have no choice. . .. dad came first at the time.

and he wouldn't be happy now if i didn't plead my case to help maintain the farm.

Thanks
NBF

supersean1999

the 2011 figures are based on sheep census from dec 10,

restive

restive wrote: »

I will certainly be including the fact that i am farming the river suck callows in my submission. The last line of paragraph one of the letter I received refers to SPA's (special protected areas). Roughly 70% of my land comes under this heading since 2010. Of course it is unfarmable since it is under water right now!

Find out if your land is covered by any environmental schemes. Contact the National Park & Wildlife service for your area and see do they have any interest in your property. The last line of paragraph one refers to "Land of high nature value of low productivity land".

Just to update the thread, I got a letter today from Portlaoise stating that they are accepting my derogation. They will be making the payment shortly.

cj maxx

got that letter a good bit back .. still waiting:mad:..... hopefully nov payment