Economics and Finance UCD for Investment Banking

Fanatec

I have a few questions on this course.

Will this degree get me a job in one of the bigger Investments Banks in London(ie. Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley etc.) in a front desk position?

Is this course be the best in the country for a career in IB or would a TSM economics combination at Trinity be a better choice (international recognition)?

There are recruitment days at UCD from some of the banks above but how much students actually get internships and a job?

Advice appreciated.

Fanatec

Any opinions on the courses would also be appreciated.

SemiMental

Yes, I would say Economics & Finance is one of the best courses in the country if you are trying to get into Investment banking. A friend on the course told me that a couple of the final years have front desk jobs for next year in the big investment banks in London, while some others have internships with them. So it is possible to get a job with them, but you will have to be an excellent student.
I have a few friends doing economics in TCD, it seems to be a great course with a lot of smart people on it. I do know that there are people in the big IBs that have done the course, but don't know them personally.
They are both pretty good options for getting into Investment banking. I doubt it would matter much in relation to getting the job, as they are both well regarded, so it will matter more about your individual ability.
If you are pretty good at maths you could look into TSM of Maths & Economics in Trinity, as they like quantitative people in the banks. You could also look at BESS in Trinity or, Commerce or Business & Law in UCD.
You should also consider the fact that Trinity is a four year degree, you could do your 3 years in Economics & Finance in UCD and have a masters in Finance in that time.

Fanatec

Thanks for giving such a thorough answer. It’s reassuring to hear of students getting into IBing from Irish Universities considering the competition they face from Oxbridge and LSE etc.

With regards to doing the Ec and Fi degree in UCD I could then do a masters in Finance in one of the top UK colleges instead assuming I can make the grade.

beardedmaster

The Smurfit Graduate School in UCD is the bee's knees, as far as I've heard, especially for their Finance Masters, and Quantitative Finance Masters (but moreso the MBA).

That saying, I'm sure the top UK schools are better!!! With a 1:1 or a good 2:1, you'd be eligible to apply definitely.

[Jackass]

The Smurfit graduate school in UCD is, by a long long lonnnnng way, the highest regarded graduate school in the country. Internationaly it is extremely well regarded.

I'm doing the degree in Economics (single major) and hope to go on to do a MSc in Finance later, as mentioned, UCD degree is 3 years and MSc is 1 year, so in the time it takes you to get a Trinity BA, you could have your masters done.

But regarding the Economics degree, other than 1st year where you have to take a lot of electives (politics, psyhology, library studies...stuff like that, as there aren't many Econ modules in 1st year - only 4) it gets extremely good and focused in 2nd and 3rd year with a good range of modules and you can steer in to or away from the quantitative side of Economics if you like. This is important for post-grad as they examine your transcript, but not jobs, as they only see your degree (doesn't give subjects)

In terms of investment banking, anything undergrad in Economics, Finance or Maths degree and you're in the right area. Economics and Finance degree would be about as perfect a fit as you could get though.

MrMatisse

If you want to do that go to the U.K.

UCD is muck, TCD not much better. Smurfit is a waste of money.

The mode one econ degree at UCD is piss poor, and the maths is in no way adequate. Most employers ask for a transcript asking what subjects you did, there not stupid.

Fanatec

[Jackass] As an undergrad do you see the big Investment Banking firms having a hiring day at Trinity for internships, or is this a thing of the past?

I'm sort of stuck between BESS in Trinity and Eco and Fin in UCD, Is there a reason why you chose Trinity over UCD?

Fanatec

MrMatisse wrote: »

If you want to do that go to the U.K.

UCD is muck, TCD not much better. Smurfit is a waste of money.

The mode one econ degree at UCD is piss poor, and the maths is in no way adequate. Most employers ask for a transcript asking what subjects you did, there not stupid.

MrMatisse

I will be applying to the UK but I need an Irish alternative just in case. UCD and TCD are known to be the best in Ireland.

Do you have experience in either college or as a recruiter of their graduates? They're pretty strong statements you made there.

beardedmaster

Fanatec wrote: »

[Jackass] As an undergrad do you see the big Investment Banking firms having a hiring day at Trinity for internships, or is this a thing of the past?

I'm sort of stuck between BESS in Trinity and Eco and Fin in UCD, Is there a reason why you chose Trinity over UCD?

Jackass wrote:

I'm doing the degree in Economics (single major) and hope to go on to do a MSc in Finance later, as mentioned, UCD degree is 3 years and MSc is 1 year, so in the time it takes you to get a Trinity BA, you could have your masters done.

[Jackass] is doing the 3 year Single Major BA in Economics in UCD. You can't do a Single Major in Economics in TCD - the most popular subject to have with Economics would be Statistics, and do them as a TSM (Two-Subject Moderatorship). You study both for 3 years and pick only 1 to continue into final year - but you come out with a degree in both.
BESS is indeed a very good degree, but don't forget about both the UCD BA in Economics and BSc in Economics & Finance being three years. As it has been said before, you could have an undergraduate in Economics with/without Finance AND the MSc in Finance or Quantitative Finance from Smurfit (or anywhere else!) by the time the BESS students are finished, as their degree is 4 years.

Fanatec

Thanks for pointing that out, I thought he was talking about the BESS etc in TCD. What is the difference between the BA in eco. and the BSc in eco. and. fin. (except the finance bit)? Which would have better recognition from banks? Can you do an economics and stats TSM? I had a look here: http://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/undergraduate/assets/pdf/TSM_combinations.pdf but stats doesn't seem to even be there.

beardedmaster

Fanatec wrote: »

Thanks for pointing that out, I thought he was talking about the BESS etc in TCD. What is the difference between the BA in eco. and the BSc in eco. and. fin. (except the finance bit)? Which would have better recognition from banks?

I wouldn't know about recognition from banks, but I can tell you the differences between the two degrees. My gut instinct would say the Economics & Finance degree, as it is much harder to get into, and more detailed on the maths/stats side of things... so it might come off as a tad more prestigious - I'm no authority on the subject, so don't take my word as Gospel! If you want to know more Economics itself, then obviously the BA would have more of that in it.

The degrees anyway... both are 3 years. Economics Single (or Joint) Major is a BA, while Economics & Finance is a BSc - but that's just a nominal thing, it doesn't make a difference.

In UCD, you do 12 modules a year. In general, 10 modules are stuff to do with your degree, while the remaining 2 are called Electives -you can do them in absolutely anything - an Engineering student could take a Law module as an elective, for example.

In the BA, in 1st year, you only have 4 Economics modules - as that's all the 1st year ECON modules there are. 6 of the remaining spaces have to be filled with subjects from other Arts disciplines - popular choices for Economics students would be Maths or Politics.
For 2nd and 4rd years - there's a huge range of ECON modules. In 2nd year, you have 4 obligatory ECON modules, and then there's a list of 10 from which you choose 6. And if you like, you could use your elective credits to pick some ECON modules which you didn't pick as part of the 6.
In final year, it's pretty much the same, except there's 5 obligatory ones.

As for the Economics & Finance degree - from 1st year, you're doing Economics & Finance. There's no faffing around (no offense to anyone) with other Arts subjects. You don't have as much choice at all - in 1st and 2nd year, there's 10 cores in each year which you have to do, in subjects of Finance, Economics, Accounting (only a module a year), and Statistics. You still have 2 elective modules a year though, which, as I said before, can be absolutely anything.
In 3rd year you are given a bit more choice - as usual, there are 12 modules. There are 6 obligatory ones, and 2 electives. From the remaining 4, you choose to study one of the following in further detail - Economics or Finance or Mathematics & Statistics.

Just about all of the Economics modules in Economics & Finance are obligatory in the Economics BA. You cover a lot more actual Economics modules in Economics itself, rather than in Economics & Finance, which is pretty obvious. In the BA however, you don't really do any Finance, and not too much Maths or Statistics at all - which I'm guessing would be a little bit better for banking.

Here is all the info you could need for the modules in the BA in Economics.
Here is all the info you could need for the modules in the BSc in Economics & Finance.

As for the TSM - you can't do Economics & Statistics - it doesn't exist. My bad! I meant to say Economics & Mathematics - in which you'd be covering a lot of Statistics anyway.

roro2

Fanatec,

From experience, a good Ec & Fi UCD degree would certainly make you eligible for an investment banking position. Investment banks will focus on the maths element of any degree and, for example, would prefer a pure maths (or even engineering) degree over pure economics, in my opinion anyway. My advice would be to focus on the maths element of any degree – make sure to choose maths/quantitative courses where possible.

The Ec & Fi course is generally very well regarded, but they did struggle a bit in the past to bring together the correct mix and level of modules (some 1st year courses were more advanced than 2nd year for example) – these may have been smoothed out now. A key selling point is that some of the modules are taught just to Ec & Fi students which is infinitely better than being in a class of 400, although this is still the case for most of the economics courses when Ec & Fi is combined with BA Economics.

In short, I wouldn’t put you off choosing Ec & Fi and, if you are looking for a career in investment banking, I would definitely favour it over BA Economics (I can’t comment on TCD courses). Obviously it only opens the door and a lot depends on economic factors, selection processes (which are tough), grades, ability, etc. Try to get an internship too, but these can be as hard to get as a full-time role.

As an aside, I wouldn’t necessarily go for a Masters in Finance from Smurfit. Previous Ec & Fi students have found that they didn’t get much added benefit, especially given the cost. BA Economics students may have different experiences. If you did look into a Finance Masters – the UK may be the way to go.

Fanatec

Thanks for all of the replies and great info

Do you think an engineering degree would be as good as the E&F degree?

For example, I could do an Engineering Choice degree at UCD and then get masters in finance in a top UK university if I can get in.

Is it the good idea to do engineering and then expect to get an internship and then a job at a top IB or do they look for businesses/finance undergrads?

freeze4real

I do EC. and Fi.

I wont beat around the bush with this, Ireland offers nothing in terms of IB.

You are better off going to London Canada Australia or the states.

IB and trading has moved a lot from reading newspapers to high frequency trading everything is done electronically super high speed computers that make millions of trades in a second.

in simple terms its prop. trading.

Because of the economic crisis in Ireland Investment banking had the biggest amount of decrease in staff in the finance sector.

As for degree choice your minimum should be at least 67% upwards, please do your degree in a uni with the exception of DIT, then for your masters I strongly prefer over seas degree.

Bluefox21

To be honest OP, it doesn't really matter what degree you're doing. I did B&L and have a graduate contract with one of the big banks in London. Know 2 others from my year doing similar but we were the only ones interested in IB.

It's all about the internships. Apply for their networking events and get involved in a couple of extra curricular activities. Forty percent of my intake were from non-business degrees with a good bit more not having anything to do with Finance.

Very few hired who don't do the internships (almost none in my bank anyway)

Good luck and if you've any questions PM me

Fanatec

Bluefox21 ,

It's encouraging to hear that you and others got a job at a big IB.

How difficult was it for you to get the internship, was it through a "hiring day" at UCD or did you just apply online.

Are the networking events you are referring to hosted by the bank or are they just a general meetup etc.? Do they tend to be abroad?

blackstrobe

Fanatec

Getting into a big IB in London is as much down to your networking skills and overall accomplishments, academic and otherwise, as it is down to the course you study. The banks don't tend to care too much about what you are actually studying as long as you're doing well in it (2:1 or 1:1) and you can demonstrate that you have a genuine interest in finance/ whatever specific sector of investment banking you apply to. A G.S. recruiter even told me that they specifically aim to hire graduates from as broad a range of degrees as possible as it gives the firm diversity and they teach you everything you need to know on the job, what they really want are people who are smart, high achieving can think.

Saying that I would definitely recommend Ec&Fi as a course option despite the fact that, yes, UCD is seen as less prestigious than Trinity abroad. First, if you're interested in finance/economics/maths the course gives you a good grounding in all three subjects then allows you to choose what you will specialize in come third year.

Second, because the course is only three years, you could do a masters after graduating and still be finished in four years, like BESS or a TSM. If you get a first, there's nothing stopping you from going to LSE/Imperial/Cass or any other top UK graduate school, the degree is rated highly over there and past pupils have gone on to study in most major universities, in a variety of masters, from general finance based to more financial maths esq. curses, it's up to you.

Finally, because the class is small and points are relatively high there's a good overall standard and you will be surrounded by people who are ambitious which drives you on and is a great help, you'll also make some good friends.

Just a final thought as well, I wouldn't get too fixed on an IB career just yet. There are other routes that you can go down from a degree in Ec&Fi, like consulting, quantitative trading, statistics careers, work in hedge funds and even accounting (if you lose all ambition). Explore all of these career options while you're in college because they all have their own significant pro's and con's... there's more to life than money.