Muslim boyfriend and pregnancy.

LegacyUser

Sorry for the length of this in advance, but I felt all details of this story were neccessary! I’m a 23 year old Irish girl whom has been involved with a 27 year old Muslim man since January 2010. I’m not really that religious and he seems quite westernized, but he definitely believes in Islam, whether he actively practises it or not. I never really worried about it though because it didn’t seem to have any impact on his day-to-day life really, considering we first met in a night-club and he frequently drank alcohol/smoked etc. He is a lot more religious when he is in his homeland however and he still celebrates certain religious days regardless of whether he is in Ireland or elsewhere.

Anyways we broke up sometime in February 2011 and then started meeting up again in July. Shortly there-after he was granted a 5 year visa for the USA and began encouraging me to apply for one too. Despite his best efforts to persuade me I stood firm and wouldn’t agree to it, I’m in college here and have my own path paved out and travelling was not something I had in mind for the next few years at least. I did agree that I would come and visit him however. He often spoke of his plans for the future and they all seemed to involve going back to his homeland eventually. It was understood by both of us that the relationship had an expiration date because we wanted different things in our lives.

Fast-forward to the end of October… and I find out I’m pregnant and due in June 2012. (No lectures wanted or needed please – protection was used and it was used properly, it just did not work!) I didn’t tell him straight away because I was unsure what I was going to do, but after a week or so I decided that I personally would not be emotionally able to deal with an abortion. I began working up the courage to tell him within the next few days following this, it was very difficult as I wasn’t sure how he would react, but given all his plans I suspected the news would not be seen in a positive light. Then his father had a heart-attack back in his homeland and he had to travel home immediately, so immediately in fact that I did not even know about any of this until he was already in Pakistan! I chose not to tell him then as I felt it was something I should do in person and I also felt he had enough on his plate at that time.

He came home at Christmas for two weeks, mostly to sort out his affairs here, although he did spend some time with me. I told him the news and he did not react very well, I think he more or less panicked (which he admitted to later on). He got very angry at me, more or less accused me of lying about being pregnant, then accused me of being with someone else and basically said that there was no way possible it could be true because if he got me pregnant that he “would know it”. Eventually he came round and apologized to me for his behaviour, saying he was just afraid. I told him I understood because I was upset when I first found out too. He told me he had to go back home to look after his father’s business while he was sick, but that we would work things out. He is still over there looking after this business and will have to remain there for another while at least.

Ever since then we’ve been talking all the time and he has been very into the whole thing, he says he wants to be a family and look after me and the baby. He has asked me if I want to share my life with him for good, to which I replied I was willing to take it step by step and see how it went. I feel as though he thinks because we are having a baby that we need to be together forever so-to-speak and need to make a big commitment to each-other. He acts as though he’s going to move back here and I will have to move in with him straight away and he’s basically going to be the bread-winner, while I stay at home with the baby all day. He is very matter-of-fact about this, but it is not something that I want to happen – I’m very independent and I do want a life outside of being a mother. Also I don’t want to rush into anything with him, I’d be happy to meet up and see how things progress naturally, but I don’t want to be pressurized. I told him that while his idea of being a family sounds nice that I don’t want to rush and I want us to take our time, he never really responds to me when I say this however! Additionally, I can’t help but feel that we wouldn’t be in this relationship or contemplating it if it weren’t for the fact that I am pregnant… and I’m not really sure that is the best reason for us to get back together, right? Also I do not wish for my child to be raised as a Muslim (I have realized that religion matters more to me than I previously believed), but whenever I broach the subject, he simply ignores me! Although he has started posting some pro-Muslim links on his facebook, but I am unsure whether that is for my benefit or not. I dont know how to get him to discuss these things with me properly and sometimes I am a little afraid to keep pressing on these issues in case he gets mad.

Now he has also started saying that he wants the baby to have his surname and at first I agreed, my last name is a little long so a double-barrel name would be a little silly sounding. He is planning on coming back to Ireland, but he claims that his visa has expired. He now says that I must contact his friend in Ireland whom has a lawyer and speak to them, tell them that the child is his and that he needs to come back to live with me and the child. He also says that I must put his name on the birth certificate to confirm he is the father in order for him to be allowed back by Irish immigration. I’m not sure how true any of this is and can’t help but feel that there must be some other way he can gain entry to Ireland again. Also he has told me that I must not tell anyone about this and keep it between the two of us and his friend, which I find a little strange?

The other problem is that I have become a little scared by all the advice and stories I have heard from numerous people, telling me about children that have been abducted by the Muslim parent upon the end of a relationship. Let’s face it, there is no guarantee that things will work out between us and I don’t want to ever be in that situation. Therefore I feel that if the child is registered with my surname (and also that I am the only legal guardian) it would make it a lot harder for him to potentially remove the child from the country. Sometimes I feel a little silly for thinking about this, but it’s better to be safe than sorry. After-all before he knew I was pregnant he said that he would be never coming back to Ireland and now he’s suddenly committing himself to residing here permanently. And also occasionally the way he speaks about the child makes me a little uneasy, he always speaks of it as being “his blood” etc. and in other ways that seem to suggest it is more his child than mine. Sometimes I get so scared by the thoughts of him attempting to abduct the child that I feel as though I would not be able to trust him alone with baby and that I would be better off just ending things with him before anything happens. So am I being crazy by thinking this way? Or do any aspects of his behaviour raise red flags for anyone? Any insights would be appreciated.

OP frankly I'd be a little bit worried too.
Please don't feel under any obligation to settle down with him just because you will be having a child with him. He can be a good father without being your partner.
As for the dodgy legal stuff - don't do that until you get some kind of legal advice

Lisha

Hi

I agree with Bluewolf, please get good legal advice before the child is born.
He seems to be very focused on the child, which is fine in it's own way but you need to protect yourself. If your releationship fails then the child becomes his whole focus. It is simply realistic to protect your own wishes to have your child raised here.
Best of luck,

LegacyUser

Muslim or not, being taken by a non-custodial parent is the vast majority of 'kidnappings'. If said parent lives in another country, it's near impossible to get the child back.

That doesn't mean he's going to try and kidnap the child. You could be right to worry or you could be being paranoid.

However, it doesn't sound like you really want a relationship with him, especially on his terms. So why are you moving forward with it? Simply out of obligation?

Miss Fluff

Pregnant And Stressed wrote: »

Or do any aspects of his behaviour raise red flags for anyone?

All of his behaviour raises red flags to be honest.

It sounds like he has become a. quite dictatorial and b. reluctant to listen to your wishes since all of this has come about. I also think you need to consult with a family lawyer who also has some experience of immigration law as the stories he is telling you are bullsh1t and I wouldn't be coerced into meeting his friend or his friends lawyer for that matter. Why on earth are you even listening to him?You ultimately decided to go this alone and while it is admirable that he wants to be involved, I'd be concerned as to why exactly and at what level - do not allow yourself to be brow-beaten here. Your instincts are screaming no and in my own experience when you're instincts are so forceful you really should listen to them. Proceed with caution and get decent legal advice. You now have both yourself and your baby to look after.

On a side note, good luck with the rest of your pregnancy and I hope it all goes well for you.

Big Bag of Chips

I know you are a bit uneasy about how his plans have suddenly changed from moving away and not returning to Ireland, to suddenly wanting to be here for good.. but the circumstances have changed. He will now have a baby here. If he fecked off leaving you to it you would also have people saying what a bstrd he was for leaving you to raise a baby alone.

In saying this I do agree that you should go with your instincts, as they are rarely wrong. Decide on what you want to do, but realise you cannot exclude him as the child's father, your child has a right to a relationship with both parents, but you decide what you want or don't want from the relationship and get support from your family and friends.

I don't see the issue with having his name on the birth cert.. or maybe you just mentioned that in the context of the getting the advise from a solicitor? But if he is the father, then there is no reason to NOT have his name on the birth cert.

When it comes to naming the baby, it is something you will both have to discusso. You can give the baby both your surnames without making it double barrelled. If you leave out the hypen, either surname can then be used without the other. For example, if you call the baby John Smith Jones, the baby can be either John Smith Jones, John Smith or John Jones, but if you register with a hypen the baby will always be John Smith-Jones.

It is a big change for both of you, and something you are both having to adjust to. As I said, trust your gut and make sure you have support around you, but all the time realising that you have to accept, he is the babies father and the baby has a right to have him in their life.

I don't envy you...

Enjoy the rest of your pregnancy and your new baby.. it really is a lovely time.

stargazer 68

Op this is really a difficult situation. I lived in a Muslim country for many years and have seen both sides of the coin. I know lots of Western women married to Muslim men and have a wonderful marriage and life however I also know plenty who fell for the charm of the foreigner, married him and moved to his country and bang - were hit with a huge shock!! Not that Im saying you are going to marry him and move to Pakistan!

Sit down with your family and discuss the situation it in depth. Good luck

Sleepy

Having his name on the birth cert or his surname confer no legal rights on him in this country. He would either have to apply to the courts for guardianship or you can sign a declaration in front of a commissioner of oaths to grant him this. Even with guardianship it would be illegal (though not impossible) for him to take the child out of the country without your consent. Should you marry at some point in the future, he would automatically gain guardianship over your child when he's already recognised as the child's father on the birth cert.

Since paternity can be proven very easily these days, there's nothing to be gained from leaving his name off the birth cert so I'd go along with him on that and leave the issue of guardianship unmentioned for now. If you proceed with the relationship and it all goes well, he'll eventually get it anyway, if not, there may be some legal means of ensuring the child doesn't leave the country without your consent and you could discuss this with the solicitor when dealing with the guardianship issue.

I'm no fan of Islam, it's teachings on women or the world in general and while I'd advise you to protect yourself as much as possible, try not to judge this man entirely on his religion. I know at least one Muslim who's an excellent non-custodial father to his daughter from a past relationship.

Good luck with the pregnancy.

Beruthiel

Pregnant And Stressed wrote: »

He is a lot more religious when he is in his homeland

I would be concerned at this if you were my daughter.
I have seen first hand (a good friend), how a Muslim man can behave here and at home.
My friends ex was a party boy, didn't seem religious at all.
Then a year into the relationship she got pregnant and it all changed.
The child must be muslim, we must be married, the child must have his name, the child must go to a muslim school, pushing, pushing.
When he brought her to meet his family it was the burka, the separate rooms for women and a Muslim woman's way of life while she was there.
After years of misery she eventually finished with him. But he sure did take his toll on her.
Be very careful OP about your next step.

He is more religious at home because his family expect it.
Family comes first and their expectations of you within that unit are very high.
In a religious family, you had better be religious.
You will look after your family if they need or require it and in a strong religious environment, you will be shunned if you do not adhere to all the rules.

He got very angry at me, more or less accused me of lying about being pregnant, then accused me of being with someone else and basically said that there was no way possible it could be true because if he got me pregnant that he “would know it”.

I am a little afraid to keep pressing on these issues in case he gets mad.

He has a temper.
Are you afraid of him?
You should be able to discuss anything with your partner without being afraid of their reaction.

In this country you are strong and have people who care about you.
Were you ever to move anywhere else with him, you would be removed from that safety net and would be alone, with him.
Were you my daughter, I would be very concerned about that.

He also says that I must put his name on the birth certificate to confirm he is the father in order for him to be allowed back by Irish immigration.

Consult a family law solicitor immediately regarding the ramifications of you putting his name on the birth cert.

I have heard from numerous people, telling me about children that have been abducted by the Muslim parent upon the end of a relationship.

Yes, there have been cases of that. A quick google will provide loads of examples.

speaks about the child makes me a little uneasy, he always speaks of it as being “his blood” etc.

According to this site, Islamic law considers children as the seed of the father.

So am I being crazy by thinking this way?

You're not OP.
I've a feeling you cannot see the woods for the trees.

Were this a loving, caring, comfortable relationship, you'd know and feel it. You would feel safe and would have no doubts.
The fact that you have had so many red flags, the fact that you are on here posting unregged is all you need to know.
You're worried.
If you are worried, it is because something doesn't sit well and you know it.
Be very, very careful of your next move.
Do not be pushed or talked into anything.
And above all, get help from a professional.

Best of luck.

@rti-shm@rti

OP - I'm sorry you are having to deal with this in the late stages of your pregnancy!! You shouldn't be having this kind of confusion heaped on you!!

I would firstly figure out whether or not you see yourself having a relationship with this man, baby or no baby - it seems you had decided that it was not for you and had gone your separate ways. Bear this in mind. Just because there is a baby involved does not mean you have to get back with him and move in with him etc. I can understand that he wants to be near the baby but at the moment from your post I feel like he is trying to bully you into a situation you are not ready for.

My advice would be to seek good legal advice now. Make sure you know everything before the baby arrives and you won't have as much time to deal with the legal ramifications of everything. I too would be very worried about what is intentions would be. After all he has always stated that he wanted to end up back in his home country, how long would it be before the idea of moving there would be foisted on you?

Then if you are confident that a relationship and settling down as a family is not what you want then you need to tell him in no uncertain terms that fact. You can't stop him coming here to be closer to his child but you can ensure that he knows that he will not be here as your partner etc and that there is no future for the three of you to be a family together. I certainly would not be doing anything from an immigration point of view at the moment.

LegacyUser

OP here.
Many thanks for the replies, I really do appreciate it. I feel that the chances that he is coming back for the sole purpose of taking the child are slim, so I do think I am probably being paranoid in this regard. However it is not something that I would feel he would be incapable of doing if the relationship was to end badly, so I do want to protect myself from this. As per the advice you have given me, I will be receiving legal advice from a reputable family solicitor on the legal aspects of all this asap. Thanks to all whom gave advice regarding the issues of naming the baby/the birth cert also, it was very helpful to me and I learned a few things I did not know.

Just a few aspects of your replies I would like to touch on and clarify things.

Beruthiel wrote: »

He has a temper.
Are you afraid of him?
You should be able to discuss anything with your partner without being afraid of their reaction.

Yes he has a temper. Now he is usually quite a nice guy so thankfully he doesn’t seem to lose it very often, but when he does it is not a pleasant experience to say the least. I will never forget one occasion, we were after coming home from a night out and he was convinced I was after cheating on him, to the point where he even said he saw me kiss someone else with his own eyes, which was impossible considering I never did. If anything I was with him most of the night! But there was no talking to him (because he is never wrong according to him!) and he threw things all around the place and shouted all kinds of horrible things, telling me that I needed to stay away from him as I “haven't seen anything yet" and I "wouldn’t like him when he’s mad”, before ultimately going off in a sulk and leaving me in tears. We made up afterwards, but he refused to discuss the incident and I never got an apology or anything. It was never the same after that though and the first time we broke up was about a month after this incident. I wouldn’t say I am afraid of him exactly, but I suppose I am overly concerned with not saying anything to upset him.

Those of you whom have pointed out that my instincts are screaming no and that I am worried, you are very right of course. I think what worries me most is how I am acting at the moment. While I am not the most assertive person or the best at making my voice heard in general, I don’t think I have ever behaved like this before. I am letting him walk all over me. He says we have to do x y and z and I find myself just agreeing to it. I have made attempts like I mentioned in my original post to slow things down and to make my feelings known, but when these attempts have been ignored, I have just let that slide. Then when he brings it up again I just let him have his way so-to-speak. What worries me is if I am letting him dictate things to me when he is thousands of miles away, what will I let him do when he is here in Ireland? I am becoming a door-mat who just agrees with everything, lets him make the decisions and does what he says even when I don’t want to. I just don’t think this bodes well for the future. I feel as though if/when he gets to Ireland I would probably end up jumping through hoops for him.

becareful wrote:

So why are you moving forward with it? Simply out of obligation?

Miss Fluff wrote:

Why on earth are you even listening to him?

Honestly, I just don’t know. Maybe I’m so caught up in this whole situation that I can’t think straight or see clearly. I would have never pictured myself behaving like this in a million years. I feel like I’m slipping into a subservient role and it is so different to how I normally am, so it is very puzzling to me. I don’t know whether it is because he speaks with such certainty and authority on matters and sounds so self-assured and confident that I feel obliged to go along with it. I can’t think of any other reason really, I’m not afraid to be a single mother in the slightest and I’ve never been someone who has seen marriage etc. as something necessary to my happiness.

@rti-shm@rti wrote:

I would firstly figure out whether or not you see yourself having a relationship with this man, baby or no baby - it seems you had decided that it was not for you and had gone your separate ways.

This is something that bothers me a lot. As I said earlier, if it wasn’t for this baby, then while it would have ended on good terms, we would definitely be gone our separate ways already. I don’t want to force a relationship because of the situation and I find that his professions of undying love make me feel more uncomfortable than anything else. I just keep thinking, “well you wouldn’t be saying that if I wasn’t pregnant”.

I think I should probably tell him straight out that if he comes back to Ireland he should not be under the illusion that we are all going to be a family and move in together. I would rather he came home on his own terms, for the sole purpose of seeing the child, not with any other expectations. Maybe something would happen when he came back, maybe it wouldn’t, but I would rather just see if anything happens naturally when he is back in Ireland, rather than forcing a commitment in the way that he seems to want. Right now, my gut instincts are telling me that I don’t think I will want a relationship with him, at least not in the way he wants one. Of course the trouble now is mustering up the courage to tell him this. I often find myself giving myself a pep talk and gearing myself up to tell him things and then falling straight back into my usual behaviours when the time actually comes!

@rti-shm@rti wrote:

After all he has always stated that he wanted to end up back in his home country, how long would it be before the idea of moving there would be foisted on you?

Very worried about this also I must admit. He told me straight out before I was pregnant that he was SICK of Ireland and would NEVER be coming back, so I don’t think it is a stretch to foresee him wanting to move back home in the future. What worries me about this is that I know in my heart and soul that I would never want to live permanently anywhere else outside of Ireland and it would be my worst nightmare to move to Pakistan. And yet the other day I was trying to accustom myself to the idea, almost telling myself that I had better get used to it because if he wants to go there in another few years that I will have no choice whether I like it or not. Just another example of how I seem to be turning into a door-mat! I just don't know why I am acting this way, but I do know I have to do something to change it and sooner rather than later!

Magenta

OP, please please please stay well away from this guy. You are very lucky in the sense that in Ireland, the father has diddly squat rights unless you two are married (not that I agree with how little rights unmarried dads have, but in this case use it to your advantage). I have had friends go out with Muslim guys and in their culture, women are not seen in the same way as they are here. Beruthiel's advice was especially good.

lazygal

OP there are red flags all over the place here for me.

Temper issues would be a deal breaker for me and for my children. I wasn't raised in a home where there was any verbal or physical violence and I won't stand for it in my home (this works both ways, my husband wouldn't stand for me acting out like that either.

I hate to generalize and I know its difficult to listen to hearsay but I've yet to see a relationship like yours work out. My aunt married someone from a very different background to her, went to live in his country and regretted it bitterly. It took her 30 years to leave him.

"He says we have to do x y and z and I find myself just agreeing to it."

This is also a HUGE red flag for me. So he decides the child will be raised Muslim-will you go along with it? He decides as a family you will be moving to a different country? Living with his family? You will be converting? You'll cover your tempting hair?

You are a grown adult and adults in relationships don't say "we have to do x y and z". They talk about issues or difficulties and sort them out together, they don't lay down diktats for the other partner to follow. Parents say 'You have to keep your room tidy' to a child. Adults don't say it to their partner.

Sleepy

Yep, red flags everywhere after your last post.

Get home to your family, end the relationship with him and let him know that while you're happy for him to be a father to the child, you're not going to marry him and play happy families.

Get your support network around you (please tell me you've a father / big brother who could physically intimidate him should he kick off on one of his tantrums at your house?) and don't meet him without them.

As someone else has said, YOU have all the power in Ireland. Don't try refusing him access to his son/daughter but I'd arrange such access via the courts whilst making sure the child doesn't have a passport (to ensure he couldn't try running back to Pakistan with the child).

Show your friends and family this thread if you feel you can't discuss it with them face-to-face. Regardless of how tough, strong-minded or independent you are, you're going to need a support network in order to deal with this and there's absolutely no shame in that: armies are strong because they band together, an individual always has a breaking point.

Oryx

In your first posts, you seemed strong and well able to stand up for yourself, so your last update has come as a bit of a surprise, but I think that its the honest you, the one youre loathe to admit to yourself, let alone to people, thats talking now.

This is what I read in your latest post:

You are pregnant by a man you do not want to be with.
You are mildly afraid of this man (in that you are afraid to make him angry again)
He has the ability to control you mentally, even though youre not sure how.
You worry that at some point in the future he could abduct your child.
You worry he will bully you into moving to Pakistan, your 'worst nightmare'.

So why are you considering a relationship again at all? You dont fear being a single parent. You are definitely strong enough to stand on your own two feet, and you dont need him. Why not tell him IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that you are not rekindling your relationship right now, and move forward on that basis. Wait until your child is born, and let the dust settle (while protecting yourself legally). It may be that with some space and the pressure of pregnancy removed, you may see things clearer and find more resolve within yourself to know exactly what to do. Also, cutting this man off in terms of a relationship right now might let you see what kind of man he is when he isnt getting what he wants.

edellc

I do not want to presume that your partner would take your child from you, but a good friend of mine did have two children with a Pakistani and like you he wanted her to move in with him and stay at home with the kids and basically he wanted to control her, she let it happen but eventually the relationship ended he didn't like her independent streak and one day he took the kids and fled to Pakistan with them....under Pakistani law she had and has no rights and the kids are still over there living with him, she wasn't a rich person and could only afford legal aid but she fought for those kids unfortunately that was 6 years ago and she still has no access to her kids...she was and is devastated

OP please seek independent legal advice before you do anything else, if you do not want to move in with him dont, and do not do as he is asking you to do with his friend and lawyer that sounds completely dodgy.

Do speak to your family, you will need them and their support regardless of what happens, as for registering the birth and surname situation, it is just a name if you want to put your name and his as the surname you can just dont do the - between them that way it will not be a double barrelled one and you can use either of them.

As for the muslim thing I am an athiest and proud of it and there is no way I would ever let my child be involved in any religion however it is something that you will have to face up to, this is his culture, this is the muslim culture and girl you are going to have a battle on your hands weather you like it or not regardless of how nice he is/was his culture and he will never be westernised...do you want to start playing the catholic card and saying how very important it is to you to have your baby christened and brought up by your culture

I wish you all the best OP I hope he is not an a-hole about it all and is as westernised as you say, I do hope he doesnt pressurise you into anything you dont want to do, its a very tricky situation

peace and love Op x

Degringola

Some food for thought, OP:
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2004/05/advice-to-non-muslim-women-against-marrying

LegacyUser

Don't be painting all Muslims with the same brush now....guys. It is not Islam to blame it is the way he was raised. I have Pakistani Muslim colleagues that are devoutly religious, the ones that are married do not treat their wives like ****e. Their wives have careers outside the home and have more education than most. Their culture is more traditional in regards to family roles and responsibilities but which culture isn't, really?

Regardless of his background and religion,this man is controlling and abusive. I would strongly suggest making it clear that you do not want to marry or cohabitate with him. At this point, it might even be best to live with family like Sleepy suggested. A big brother or father that will show him if he decides to go ape****e.

There are differences in their culture and religion just like ours. Over there it is more patriarchal and all parental rights goes to fathers regardless if the father is an ar*sehole, wife beater whatever. Maybe considering his behaviour it is best that the father's name is not on the birth certificate as this will enable him to get a Pakistani passport. Even though your child will be born in Ireland; the father is Pakistani according to the rules and laws of that country. If there is no documentation of his paternity, it will put him in a situation where he will not be able to obtain a Pakistani passport. He doesn't need your permission or written consent to get one either. He just needs proof that the child is his. Speak with a solicitor that is very well versed in international custodial law. Also speak with someone regarding local family law as well. Make sure you have SOLE CUSTODY where he will not be allowed to take the child outside Ireland and that your child has ONE passport and you keep it. If he takes this child back to his country; realise that his country will do nothing to bring that child back to you. This has happened in more liberal Islamic nations like Jordan. Unless the father comes from a secular Muslim state(Turkey, Bosnia) mothers have no rights. But that does not mean that all the men are bad. My friend comes from Iran and when her parents got divorced the mother kept the kids and the father gave them maintanence and this was in her country. Regardless of the laws in that country where men gets sole custody. It's how your bf was raised and educated. Nonetheless, from the description of his behaviour I would keep myself informed and stand my ground.

People also need to realise when someone gets pregnant or married that they may become religious. It happens to most people I know. I have friends including myself that barely went to church but after we had children we became more religious somehow and attend mass. I thought this would never happen to me but it did. This is matter of fact.

The problem with the OP is that he is very controlling and manipulative and coming from a culture and religious background puts him in his favour. It certainly isn't an excuse for his behaviour as I know most that would never dream of doing something like this. If the thread did not make mention of the guy's religion and ethnic background, I swear I thought I was reading something about my ex who happens to be Irish and Catholic!

Rocket19

Degringola wrote: »

Some food for thought, OP:
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2004/05/advice-to-non-muslim-women-against-marrying

I just read this, and it seems to be blatant Catholic, anti-Muslim propaganda.

As for the replies here, I'd be reluctant (as I feel some have) to jump the gun, and assume that just because he's Muslim, he's automatically going to try convert the child, and run off with him/her to his homeland.
At the same time OP, only YOU know this guy, so definitely trust your instincts. Cover all your bases legally. You say it's hard to stand up to him, but this is so, so important. This guy is (presumably) going to be a part of your life from now on (in some way or another), so you should be establishing your boundaries now. Don't let him talk you into anything you're not comfortable with, and try to start voicing your opinions, even if it seems difficult.

Remember that you have the advantage; being in Ireland and the fact you are the child's mother.
Best of luck (and congrats on your baby)

JuliusCaesar

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iCosmopolis

Well..I married mine and had a baby with him, likewise he's non practising but its a definite element in his life, and especially since herself came along. If you are having these serious doubts and question his character just don't stay in a relationship with him.
You're likely feeling vulnerable as you're pregnant and maybe if he's putting it to you now in this situation he want's to be serious, but it may only change him temporarily and whatever issues he had will return afterwards.
Once you have the baby, the feelings for them will trump those of your partner, and believe me it will be terrifying if you're feeling insecure about them or their intentions.

irishconvert

Pregnant And Stressed wrote: »

The other problem is that I have become a little scared by all the advice and stories I have heard from numerous people, telling me about children that have been abducted by the Muslim parent upon the end of a relationship. Let’s face it, there is no guarantee that things will work out between us and I don’t want to ever be in that situation. .

He can't take the child out of the country with having the child's passport. It doesn't matter about surnames. So make sure you keep possession of the passport and you should be fine.

EDIT: BTW, I am a Muslim so if you have any questions about your worries around the child being Muslim, ask here and I will try to answer as honestly as possible.

ANOTHER EDIT: I never thought about him getting a Pakistani passport for the child, good point by the other poster. But as far as I know he would need to have the birth cert to do this.

edellc

OP I couldnt stop thinking about your story last night and had to write again

I feel maybe I might have been harsh on your partner, as I said I do not want to judge as I dont think he can be all that bad after all you fell for him

As you said he is at home and you are talking over the phone, and now you are worrying about things that he is saying

He is understandbly under a lot of pressure - dad being sick, looking after family business, plans for American over (or not who knows) and you being pregnant, really that is a lot for any man to deal with

When he comes back you need to have a sit down and talk to him face to face, write down your fears and what you want the outcome of all this to be, do you want to marry him?? do you want him to go to American and carry on with what he was going to do and you stay here and raise the baby - as a single mother, do you have the support network to do this as the reality of raising a baby is hard, or do you want him to stay here for the baby but not living together

I think he is actually behaving like any man and maybe more is being made of his religious beliefs practicing or non practicing (its just like a devote catholic except its Islam - Catholics had extremists also, remember the IRA oh sorry the Real IRA and they are still behaving like idiots too :rolleyes:)

I think because he isnt from Ireland he has a different culture and it wasnt an issue when you where just having fun but now it is and you see how completely different you two are, if you want to make this work you know you will have to compromise as will he

But I urge you before he comes back to Ireland you get your head sorted as to what you want to happen and if it doesnt involve moving in with him and playing happy families then you need to be aware of the flip side also

But do talk to your family you will need them so much

best of luck op peace and love xx

Taltos

Irishconvert please note it is against our charter to request a poster to contact you. Such requests can and do result in bans.

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Taltos

irishconvert

Taltos wrote: »

Irishconvert please note it is against our charter to request a poster to contact you. Such requests can and do result in bans.

Thanks
Taltos

Sorry Taltos, wasn't aware of that rule.

Big Bag of Chips

irishconvert wrote: »

ANOTHER EDIT: I never thought about him getting a Pakistani passport for the child, good point by the other poster. But as far as I know he would need to have the birth cert to do this.

If he wants he can quite easily get a copy of the baby's birthcert from the registration office. He can simply walk in and ask for it, pay €8, and he has the birth cert! Or it can be ordered online...

At the moment, while prudent to be thinking of all the possibilities and what ifs, there's no point worrying about it all until you speak face to face with him. Use the time while he's away to get your head around what you want, and why you want it. Then it doesn't matter how convincing he is with his argument, you have your choices made.

Maybe even an assertiveness class somewhere might be worth considering?

Make sure you have your family support around you. Don't agree to anything you are not comfortable with... there's nothing wrong with saying, "i don't know", or "I don't want to make that sort of decision yet"... those sort of answers.

willmunny1990

I'm of the opinion you should never get involved with a man/woman who has a connection to a radical religion like Islam. It's simply to dangerous and the gulf in beliefs, moral standards is to high.

I can't stress enough that you must get solid legal advice and you are rightly concerned about the advice stories of children being abducted, it's the reality of the situation. Women are treated like dogs in the majority of muslim countries and you'd have little to know rights if he managed to get the child back to his country.

A lot of his behavior raises red flags for me, what ever you decide to do be very very careful.

banie01

willmunny1990 wrote: »

I'm of the opinion you should never get involved with a man/woman who has a connection to a radical religion like Islam. It's simply to dangerous and the gulf in beliefs, moral standards is to high.

I could offer this same advice regarding any number of Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh and a myriad other sects!
Its not Islam that is radical, anymore so than other religions...
It is the radicalised and fundamental viewpoints taken by some interpretations of those faiths that are an issue.

I'm not a religious person by any standard but you've just tarred 1.6billion adherents of an abrahamic religion as radicals...
Thats just over simplistic and wrong!
Now even ignoring the crusading past of christianity I think you will find with a bit of looking there is more than enough Christian Fundamental nutters commiting violent acts out there too!
Even Breivik tries to portray himself as a 'Crusader'!

O.P take a holistic view of the situation!
I don't buy his stories regarding his immigration status for 1 second, and lets be honest...
Ye broke up for a reason, having a kid doesn't fix a broken relationship....
But it could help him in a deportation appeal??

You have decided to keep this child, now you need to decide how to give your child the best possible start in life?
Is that by acknowledging this man as the father?
By worrying if he has ulterior motives any time he takes the child?
And worrying if they will return?
Or do you believe that you can build a relationship on trust with him and never have those thoughts cross your mind?
Because if you have that thought just once!
If just once you find yourself questioning whether or not your child will be safe with this man as your partner....
Then doesn't that answer the question for you?

willmunny1990

banie01 wrote: »

I could offer this same advice regarding any number of Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh and a myriad other sects!
Its not Islam that is radical, anymore so than other religions...
It is the radicalised and fundamental viewpoints taken by some interpretations of those faiths that are an issue.

I'm not a religious person by any standard but you've just tarred 1.6billion adherents of an abrahamic religion as radicals...
Thats just over simplistic and wrong!
Now even ignoring the crusading past of christianity I think you will find with a bit of looking there is more than enough Christian Fundamental nutters commiting violent acts out there too!
Even Breivik tries to portray himself as a 'Crusader'!

O.P take a holistic view of the situation!
I don't buy his stories regarding his immigration status for 1 second, and lets be honest...
Ye broke up for a reason, having a kid doesn't fix a broken relationship....
But it could help him in a deportation appeal??

You have decided to keep this child, now you need to decide how to give your child the best possible start in life?
Is that by acknowledging this man as the father?
By worrying if he has ulterior motives any time he takes the child?
And worrying if they will return?
Or do you believe that you can build a relationship on trust with him and never have those thoughts cross your mind?
Because if you have that thought just once!
If just once you find yourself questioning whether or not your child will be safe with this man as your partner....
Then doesn't that answer the question for you?

I was only using Islam here because it was relevant to the OP.

I also would of warned her if her partner was a strict Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh believer had they been relevant to the OP's post.

The Corinthian

Had anyone considered that a large part of his behaviour is not due to his religion or cultural background, but down to the fact that he has a life-changing, crisis situation facing him where he essentially has absolutely no legal rights and is caught in a maelstrom of seeking self-assertion, pressure to 'do the right thing' (which is not a monopoly of Islam) and total confusion and panic?

I think, regardless of his background, his reaction is not necessarily all that different to many Western, Christian men in the same situation. She may be the one who's pregnant, but that's no excuse to completely dismiss what may be happening to him psychologically and put it all down to his religion.

saa

The Corinthian wrote: »

but down to the fact that he has a life-changing, crisis situation facing him

or that he has anger issues either way. I know a Muslim guy who is working here and his girlfriend became pregnant and in most cases Id guess it is an issue for the families and makes things complicated but yeah not the reason why he's acting like that hearing about this guy I don't see it as workable or that he's only acting like this because of the crisis situation, his reactions are not reasonable and I think OP should find a way to get away from him and any contact should to be through a mediator and I completely agree fathers should have more rights but that doesnt seem to be why he's angry.

Susie_Q

OP be very careful how you proceed. If you get back into a relationship with this man he will be around your child 24/7... is that what you want? I don't mean because he is Muslim, I mean because he clearly frightens and intimidates you, and it sounds like he's an emotional manipulator too. Is that what you want your future to look like?

Best of luck with everything.

The Corinthian

saa wrote: »

his reactions are not reasonable and I think OP should find a way to get away from him and any contact should to be through a mediator and I completely agree fathers should have more rights but that doesnt seem to be why he's angry.

His initial reaction was a combination of denial, anger and panic (by his own admission). His second and present reaction is one of 'doing the right thing'. Neither are that uncommon to one degree or other amongst Western men in the same situation, be they reasonable or not. His being Muslim, I suspect, has little to do with it.

That he is seeking to impose certain things, such as the child's surname, is an attempt to reassert some level of control over the situation. He's gotten a woman pregnant. She has full control over if and how she has the child and everything that comes after, so it is perfectly normal to want to do this, even though it may not be the best or most diplomatic thing to do. Indeed, he may not really want to 'do the right thing' but may feel he has little option but to do so so as to make the best of a bad situation.

No, he's not being reasonable. He's trying to impose his wishes on her. Then again, she's doing the same thing, starting with her choice to keep the child - regardless if she has a right to do so or not. As a result, both of them are presently in a situation where neither trusts the other. Each has their own agenda, and are going to seek to impose it on the other.

All of this is not unusual even with a Western couple.

As to mediation, I believe he should talk to other men who may have been in similar positions first. Pregnancy counselling is not for men; that it, it focuses on the mother (with priority on her or the child depending on whether it's pro-choice or pro-life), but the man has more of a supporting role to this. Unfortunately that's just how it works, in my experience.

So certainly, they should seek a counsellor and later mediation, but he should really talk to some friends or colleagues about this first, as I believe they're his best chance of getting his head together.

Otherwise, the whole thing will likely degenerate into an entrenched power struggle, just as it does with many other couples.

LegacyUser

I’m sorry to be dragging up an old thread but I am the OP so I hope that is okay as I didn’t feel there was much sense in starting a new thread.

I want to thank everyone who took the time to reply for their help, I really appreciate it and I considered everything that was posted very carefully. I ended up getting the courage to speak with him on these issues. I told him that I felt two people should not be getting back in a relationship just because of a pregnancy and that I felt that this might be what was happening here. I said that while we have had some good times in our relationship together that we both ultimately knew we would be going our separate ways and that those plans wouldn’t have changed except for the pregnancy. I also said it was unreasonable for him to expect me to decide over the phone/internet if I wanted to marry him/be with him forever, especially when I haven’t seen him face-to-face in so long. I told him that if he wants to come back that it should be just to see his baby, not with the expectation of anything happening between us. I also said that perhaps I would feel differently if I was seeing him again and that maybe feelings would resurface and things would develop, but that I couldn’t promise anything and that scenario could very well end up not happening at all.

While I was saying all the above he didn’t really say much in response. I also must make clear that I wasn’t unkind in the way I said anything, I was honest with him but I was perfectly nice about it all and encouraged him to discuss it with me… but he wouldn't. So after I had said what I needed to say I apologized to him for not saying this sooner and for any hurt that what I was saying might cause him. I then said that he had to decide for himself what he was going to do, whether he still wanted to come back or not to see the baby. He just kind of grunted in response and I then said that I would be supportive of any plans he had to come see the baby and do whatever was necessary to facilitate any visits etc . There was silence on the other end of the phone… and then he angrily said “this is b***-s***!”, before hanging up!

I tried contacting him after this but he didn’t respond to calls or texts, so I decided to leave him off and thought maybe he needed time to cool off or to consider everything I had said. That would have been fair enough in my eyes! But 4 weeks later I had still heard nothing. I tried calling him after those 4 weeks but he didn’t answer. I have not tried contacting him since then as I figure if he wants to contact me then he knows how to do so. It wasn’t a case of him not having his phone as he was updating his facebook via Mobile regularly. I haven’t got any insight via his facebook posts either as they all just seem to be youtube videos about Islam lately.

It has now been over 6 weeks since I have spoken to him. He is prone to being a bit of a sulker and giving people the silent treatment, but I feel as though this is a bit much! I am not really that upset about it at all, which I think probably shows that I was not in love with this man anymore and was right not to agree to make serious commitments to him. But I would have at least liked to get some response from him and if nothing else I'd have liked a bit of closure to the situation. Is that too much to expect? There is a child involved after-all! As it stands I have no idea as to whether he is even interested in seeing the baby, or as to whether he now doesn't care at all anymore because I haven't agreed to play happy families with him. My baby should be born within the next week or two, so I’m a bit at a loss as to what to do about it. Do I try to contact him about the birth? Maybe send him a text message with a picture? Any advice would be welcome!

Oh and just to clarify I have been in touch with a solicitor whom will help me out if he does decide to return, many thanks to all who offered advice on that aspect of my original predicament.

Oryx

As of now, I think your best plan would be to continue on as a single mother. If he is rejecting all attempts at contact, you have to accept that, even though it is an awful thing to do to you. I know it gives you no closure, but it does show you what kind of man he is, and I hope you remember that if or when he does resume contact.

I would expect he may attempt to contact you again at some point, and he may try to put pressure on you to do things his way again. I just get the feeling that this may not be over and you need to be ready for that and know how to react, just in case.

Sleepy

Oryx's advice is bang on the money here. It's time to circle the wagons. Build your support network around you: family, friends and solicitor should one be needed.

If he resurfaces shortly after you've given birth be mindful that you'll probably be in quite an emotional state due to your recent labour, lack of sleep etc. While you should, of course, be polite and open to him having contact with his child, don't forget to stand up for yourself, don't fall back into a relationship with him and ask your friends and family to be there to help you through this. I'd advise having someone else present any time you're to see him. Should he be looking to rekindle the relationship, don't entertain him until you're 100% sure you're open to that (i.e. until life has some degree of normality to it again: sleep deprivation doesn't assist good decision making).

For now, focus on you and your baby. Best of luck OP and congratulations, whilst parenting can be very rough for the first few months (or even years) it's certainly the most rewarding experience I've had in my life to date.

curlzy

Hey OP,

I know this is un-pc and racist but I really wouldn't trust that man at all considering his ethnicity and behaviour thus far. I honestly do realise that that's very un-pc and racist of me but I think it's justified going by what you've told us. Also I think it's ok to greet sexism with racism when it's called for. Although saying that, if a culture is clearly sexist then I don't think it's racist to point it out and call a spade a spade. And I do think Islam/Pakistan is sexist against women. I have had a friend from Pakistan and a friend from Iran, both guys and while good friends with them I would never in a million years go out with either of them, because while they were westernised in relation to how they were at home they were still actually quite sexist underneath it all.

He clearly has ZERO respect for you, you respectfully told him your views and wishes and he called it bull**** and hung up on you. His temper and your bowing down to his wishes is really hair raising. It would be bad enough if he was Irish but the fact that he's Pakistani makes it fullblown scary, if he managed to get the child over there you would never get him/her back.

I really think this is the best outcome, i.e. his cutting contact and leaving you alone. I don't know why you're trying to get in contact with him still to be honest. If he gets back in contact and wants a relationship with the child and you're ok with that I would make it very very very clear that it will be on YOUR terms only. I would never ever ever allow the child to go to Pakistan with him, no matter how nice he is or for how long. The child can go there if it wants when it's over 18, although I would discourage it greatly if you have a daughter as women have zero rights in Pakistan. It's not unheard of for daughters to be married off against their will, even after the age of 18 daughters can still be viewed as property over there.

The very best of luck to you and your baby.

irishconvert

curlzy wrote: »

Hey OP,

I know this is un-pc and racist but I really wouldn't trust that man at all considering his ethnicity and behaviour thus far. I honestly do realise that that's very un-pc and racist of me but I think it's justified going by what you've told us. Also I think it's ok to greet sexism with racism when it's called for. Although saying that, if a culture is clearly sexist then I don't think it's racist to point it out and call a spade a spade. And I do think Islam/Pakistan is sexist against women. I have had a friend from Pakistan and a friend from Iran, both guys and while good friends with them I would never in a million years go out with either of them, because while they were westernised in relation to how they were at home they were still actually quite sexist underneath it all..

I find your view quite insulting. Yor are tarring millions and millions of Muslims with the one brush based on two people you know. It's like me saying all Cork people are paedophiles as I know one person from Cork who abused children. How stupid is that?

Ickle Magoo

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LegacyUser

Hi OP,

You should be proud of yourself! You stood your ground and this is probably the reason why he reacted this way. He was angry because you asserted yourself. He wanted to be in control and when he realised that he did not have any control over you he became volatile with his comments.

I would suggest being around family and friends for a while and be extra careful in case he does decide to show up.

Keep asserting yourself dear!

2rkehij30qtza5

OP are you still registered? I would like to pm you but can't! If you could pm me please and I'll reply?...

Ickle Magoo

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Rabbitandcavy

Many Muslims do believe that women are second class citizens and they are the bread winner and what they say goes. It's what is thought in that religion, so that's just the way it is. Not all Muslims are like that, but I think we can all agree that that is the way the OPs ex partner is. OP, if it were me I would not try and contact him any more, and if he tried to contact you I would personally ignore it unless he showed up on my door step because he sounds like bad news and is only going to cause you and the baby trouble and heart ache. It does sound like he has a power over you, and you could easily crumble to him and go along with what he says if he does show up again, especially with the crazy post partum hormones you are going to have, so I think it's better to cut all contact and go along as a single Mum. He doesn't deserve to have the child in his life.

Fenian Army

Some astounding bigotry in this thread.

I reckon he didn't want to do the things he said he would and was doing it to "do the right thing", he lost it because he saw what you said as throwing it back in his face.

Anyway it sounds like you are better off without!

sinsin

Sleepy wrote: »

Having his name on the birth cert or his surname confer no legal rights on him in this country. He would either have to apply to the courts for guardianship or you can sign a declaration in front of a commissioner of oaths to grant him this. Even with guardianship it would be illegal (though not impossible) for him to take the child out of the country without your consent. Should you marry at some point in the future, he would automatically gain guardianship over your child when he's already recognised as the child's father on the birth cert.

Since paternity can be proven very easily these days, there's nothing to be gained from leaving his name off the birth cert so I'd go along with him on that and leave the issue of guardianship unmentioned for now. If you proceed with the relationship and it all goes well, he'll eventually get it anyway, if not, there may be some legal means of ensuring the child doesn't leave the country without your consent and you could discuss this with the solicitor when dealing with the guardianship issue.

I'm no fan of Islam, it's teachings on women or the world in general and while I'd advise you to protect yourself as much as possible, try not to judge this man entirely on his religion. I know at least one Muslim who's an excellent non-custodial father to his daughter from a past relationship.

Good luck with the pregnancy.

It gets him a visa.

sinsin

Post *9 is spot on.

You are facing major difficulties.
You need to familiarise yourself with Islamic Law and custom.

You are non Muslim and your child is illegitimate even if you marry.
Your child is a lower caste among Muslims to be used and abused.
You are nothing.
You cannot be introduced to his family and friends.
There is much more....if you are interested,get back to me.

Ickle Magoo

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DazMarz

Regardless of religion, ethnicity or nationality, this guy sounds like a short-tempered man. I would not have him in your life or your child's life unless he is willing to curb his temper.

Do not change your life or lifestyle in any way to suit anyone else. Particularly for someone who could quite quickly become abusive and/or threatening.

Keeping a close circle of friends and family around you at all times and having a solicitor hovering nearby is also the best thing you can do. If he does land on your doorstep at some point after you've given birth, make sure that you have plenty of friends and family around. Do not allow yourself and/or your child be alone with him under any circumstances. If he wants to talk to you alone, meet him in your house and have someone in the house in another room, just in case.

Err on the side of extreme caution around this guy. He sounds like pure bad news. His demeanour and personality make him sound like someone that does not deserve to be in your life.

ShanePouch

DazMarz wrote: »

Regardless of religion, ethnicity or nationality, this guy sounds like a short-tempered man. I would not have him in your life or your child's life unless he is willing to curb his temper.

Do not change your life or lifestyle in any way to suit anyone else. Particularly for someone who could quite quickly become abusive and/or threatening.

Keeping a close circle of friends and family around you at all times and having a solicitor hovering nearby is also the best thing you can do. If he does land on your doorstep at some point after you've given birth, make sure that you have plenty of friends and family around. Do not allow yourself and/or your child be alone with him under any circumstances. If he wants to talk to you alone, meet him in your house and have someone in the house in another room, just in case.

Err on the side of extreme caution around this guy. He sounds like pure bad news. His demeanour and personality make him sound like someone that does not deserve to be in your life.

Conventional etiquette says we should here by sympathetic to the mother as to do otherwise might be seem as crass.

However, it is worth noting that it was her decisions which have brought her to the place in which she now finds herself, and having just finished reading A Thousand Splendid Suns, I would not be inclined to follow a man with a temper back to Pakistan to live the life of a Muslim woman.

Like most people who find themselves in situations, the OP already knows the answers to her own questions. However, a child has two parents and has a right to know both parents, although the OP also has a duty to do what she thinks is best for the child, and for herself.

If it were me, I would do nothing now that my child, or my conscience, might regret. I'd send him pics of the baby, and not play games, but also I would not play any games insitgated by the father.

If he wants access, then I'd be delighted and arrange it all officially through the family courts, at the same time as asking for financial assistance from the father should the OP need that.

Lastly, Id try to be happy and surround yourself with friends and family and don't let the father's absence, or presence, divert you from the path to happiness. Take control and don't let the father control you!

HellFireClub

Whatever you do, get YOUR OWN legal advice in relation to all of your concerns and don't be persuaded into taking legal advice from any person connected in any way whatsoever with the person who is causing you these valid legal concerns. I've just spent the last week in the High Court, seeing a family situation being pulled apart by barristers, because someone in our family in a similar situation to yours, got not just bad legal advice but false legal advice from a solicitor who, unbeknownst to the rest of us, was shoved into the equation at the time by someone else in the family who had their own completely separate agenda.

And as someone above said, while it is illegal for a father to remove a child from the state with the consent of the mother, it certainly isn't impossible to do so and where the state is a non-EU state such as Pakistan, you may forget about any of the usual remedies being available to you, such as an EU arrest warrant followed by a trial pursuant to EU law, to attempt to reverse the wrong, God forbid it were to ever occur. If this were to ever happen, (and there are documented cases on the internet of it happening), you may as well consider the illegal transfer of your child to Pakistan, an irreversible event, save with the cooperation of the father.

Whatever else you do, get your own legal advice and keep your own counsel at all times in relation to your valid concerns.