Evander Holyfield

Maravilla33

I've noticed that heavyweight debates seem to attract a lot of traffic and interest on here compared to some other topics.

What I propose to do is pick a different heavyweight every week and debate their individual career focusing on,

Style
Strengths & Weaknesses
Biggest win/achievement
Biggest disappointment
Best KO
What other HW in history they would have struggled with most
Overall impact on the division

Can you also give them a mark out of 10 based on skills, achievements & legacy.

Its not a greatest heavy ever debate but more an analysis of each boxer individually.

Lets start with The Real Deal.

Maravilla33

Style - Aggressive Boxer/puncher. Proper all rounder

Strengths & Weaknesses - Great heart and determination. Triple jab. Too willing to get into a brawl and engage when he had the skills to outbox most

Biggest win/achievement - The win against Bowe

Biggest disappointment - The fact that he's still boxing

Best KO - Tyson 1

What other HW in history they would have struggled with most - Struggled with big skilful heavies a la Lewis and Bowe. Think he struggles with Vitali if he tries to brawl with him. Ali's speed, skill and boxing brain would give him most problems though.

Overall impact on the division - Great exciting fighter. Only 4 time world champion and met all challenges head on. Hes one of my 3 favourite heavys but is just outside my top 10 best heavyweights.

I'd give him a 7/10 as a heavyweight. Greatest cruiser ever.

walshb

A superb all around boxer/fighter/slugger/puncher. One of the best and most beautiful jabs in boxing across all weights, particularly the double jab, and p4p he is a helluva fighter. Top ten for me.

Strengths: Punches in bunches, fast and hard combo hitter. Great jab. Very good intensity, heart and good stamina. Variation in punches too. Good on the inside.

Weakness: Too eager at times to mix it up and is capable of being rocked and badly hurt by good heavy hitters.

Best win was his avenged loss vs. Bowe, a sloppier and less prepared Bowe.

Holyfield looked his best in his win over Foreman, Cooper and loss to Bowe in fight 1.

Best KO; has to be the one shot KO vs. Buster. Not a whopper, but picture perfect

He will struggle with Bowe always, peak Foreman, peak Ali, and yes, a peak and Rooney trained Tyson. Liston too. Frazier too. Marciano too.

I happen to think that at peak he beats Lewis. Too fast, busy, and heavy enough with hands to get Lewis's respect.

Mark from ten is 8. 8/10!

cowzerp

Style, Evander could box or get in your face and make life difficult making him able to win in any area

Strengths & Weaknesses, His main strenght was his warrior mentality and chin/heart, His main weakness was naturally been a lighter man than the top heavyweights.

Biggest win/achievement, Biggest win was when he beat Riddock Bowe

Biggest disappointment, to me it is that many of his best fights where after he was past his peak, Tyson going down before their fight was dissapointing and i firmly believe Evander would have broke Tyson back then like he did when both where out of peak. Or been robbed v Valuev when he was way way past it, that was his last chance.

Best KO, Tyson TKO win or Douglas ko win, He was not really about the KO even though he could punch.

What other HW in history they would have struggled with most, Vitali would be a night mare for Evander, anyone who'd stand with Evander was risking losing.

Overall impact on the division, Evander made Heavyweight Boxing exciting in a time when it was needed.

skills 9,
achievements 10 nobody achieved more counting Cruiser and Heavyweight .
legacy 10, been a small heavy and still achieving what he did, wow.

walshb

Would have loved to see Toney and Holyfield for at it at LHW-CW, peak to peak. Helluva scrap. Their stykes mesh beautifully. Toney has the exact style to offset Evander's aggressiveness. Close as hell I say!

Maravilla33

walshb wrote: »

Best KO; has to be the one shot KO vs. Buster. Not a whopper, but picture perfect

Nice pick and much easier on the eye and more conclusive than my pick. I just love that he stopped Mike after being written of so much and being such an underdog. The right hand that stopped Adilson Rodrigues was nice aswell. Proper put him to sleep.

walshb

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Nice pick and much easier on the eye and more conclusive than my pick. I just love that he stopped Mike after being written of so much and being such an underdog. The right hand that stopped Adilson Rodrigues was nice aswell. Proper put him to sleep.

That KO was picked because it was more about the one shot KO, and also, the impact on the HW scene. It was for the undisputed belt. It was the KO that brought Evander to the pinnacle in sport.

walshb

I forgot to add in biggest disappointment. I think losing to Moorer is the biggest disappointment. Oh, and him and Mike not meeting when they should have. Douglas upsetting all this.

When Mike met Evander, both were past it. Tyson more so. Favourite or not, Tyson was finished when he went to prison. Finished as regards being a GREAT HW in the historical sense. And, I would say that once Ronney went Tyson was going nowhere but down.

Maravilla33

walshb wrote: »

I forgot to add in biggest disappointment. I think losing to Moorer is the biggest disappointment. Oh, and him and Mike not meeting when they should have. Douglas upsetting all this.

When Mike met Evander, both were past it. Tyson more so. Favourite or not, Tyson was finished when he went to prison. Finished as regards being a GREAT HW in the historical sense. And, I would say that once Ronney went Tyson was going nowhere but down.

I think Holy was more past it. I know Tyson wasnt too long out of prison and had only had a few fights but most people feared for Holyfield's safety in this one.

In hindsight all Mike had done was KO a few average fighters and he probably shouldn't have been such a favourite. But Holy was coming off a few losses and poor performances in previous fights and genuinely looked on the slide. Throw in his injury and health problems and he was a fighter who looked like he was well past his best. Mad we're talking of him being on the slide in 1996 and yet hes still boxing. Tragic that he has 10 losses to his name.

jayteecork

He's the real deal

walshb

Maravilla33 wrote: »

I think Holy was more past it. I know Tyson wasnt too long out of prison and had only had a few fights but most people feared for Holyfield's safety in this one.

In hindsight all Mike had done was KO a few average fighters and he probably shouldn't have been such a favourite. But Holy was coming off a few losses and poor performances in previous fights and genuinely looked on the slide. Throw in his injury and health problems and he was a fighter who looked like he was well past his best. Mad we're talking of him being on the slide in 1996 and yet hes still boxing. Tragic that he has 10 losses to his name.

Who you got if Tyson 1986-1988 met Holyfield 1990-1992?

Maravilla33

walshb wrote: »

Who you got if Tyson 1986-1988 met Holyfield 1990-1992?

That's a cracking fight. I used to always say that a peak Holyfield beats any version of Tyson. I've revised my opinion over the last few years and give Tyson much more of a chance than I ever did.

I think it depends on how Holy decides to fight. Strangely enough I think his best chance of winning this is by being the aggressor but to box from mid range. He cant stand off and let Tyson get into a rhythm. He needs to double up on his jab all night and deter Tyson from coming in as quickly and frequently as he usually does. He also needs to get his shots off first. Tyson's too fast to try counter. Once he's in range his hands are a blur and its often too late to react. On the inside he has the strength and game to match Tyson but I'd want him to try spoil on the inside and frustrate Mike rather than to trade. If he does this, maintains a high work rate and hits Tyson with half the shots Buster did I think he wins by stoppage. Easier said than done against the best Tyson who bothers to move his head.

If Holyfield goes down the macho route (which is very possible) and trades with Tyson on the inside then I think he quite possibly gets knocked out. I know he was durable and had a good chin but he was still hurt several times in his career. I can picture him nearly being stopped by Burt Cooper I think it was and think he'd be a goner if that was a puncher like Tyson.

Intriguing fight and I'd give Holyfield the edge 6-4 if they met 10 times but I'd put no money on this fight.

gene_tunney

The Real Deal beats Iron Mike at any time in their respective careers IMO. But I think it would be a bit closer in the late 80's.

I just think the '96 Tyson was lacking in that extra bit of venom, speed and ferociousness that he had in his early career, and ends up getting bullied by the resilient Real Deal, which is what actually happened when they met.

The earlier Tyson, although a more vigorous specimen, is too green for Evander, and gets bullied even more, and thoroughly outmaneuvered by Evander's ring generalship.

Maravilla33

gene_tunney wrote: »

The Real Deal beats Iron Mike at any time in their respective careers IMO. But I think it would be a bit closer in the late 80's.

I just think the '96 Tyson was lacking in that extra bit of venom, speed and ferociousness that he had in his early career, and ends up getting bullied by the resilient Real Deal, which is what actually happened when they met.

The earlier Tyson, although a more vigorous specimen, is too green for Evander, and gets bullied even more, and thoroughly outmaneuvered by Evander's ring generalship.

Wow is that you commenting on boxing rather than how dumb I am? Fair enough analysis all the same.

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

The Real Deal beats Iron Mike at any time in their respective careers IMO. But I think it would be a bit closer in the late 80's.

I just think the '96 Tyson was lacking in that extra bit of venom, speed and ferociousness that he had in his early career, and ends up getting bullied by the resilient Real Deal, which is what actually happened when they met.

The earlier Tyson, although a more vigorous specimen, is too green for Evander, and gets bullied even more, and thoroughly outmaneuvered by Evander's ring generalship.

The 1986-1988 Tyson was hardly too green for Holyfield. Yes, he was young, but he was the best HW on earth. A deal better than the 1996 version in all areas. Had a lot of maturity and experience at that age.

Holyfield can win, but I really struggle to see a KO/TKO win. Tyson's stamina and all around game (defence/chin) was better in 1986-1988. Holyfield unloaded a lot in 1996 and Tyson was stopped on his feet in 11 rds.

The image of Cooper badly rocking Holyfield fills me with dread for Evander. Tyson was a far better hitter and fighter. Holyfield is durable, but for one punch power, he could be dented and hurt. Bowe and Cooper and Dokes showed this. Tyson is a far more dangerous hitter than these lads.

Maravilla33

walshb wrote: »

The 1986-1988 Tyson was hardly too green for Holyfield. Yes, he was young, but he was the best HW on earth. A deal better than the 1996 version in all areas. Had a lto of maturity and experience at that age.

Holyfield can win, but I really struggle to see a KO/TKO win. Tyson's stamina and all around game (defence/chin) was better in 1986-1988. Holyfield unloaded a lot in 1996 and Tyson was stopped on his feet in 11 rds.

The image of Coper badly rocking Holyfiled fills me with draed for Evander. Tyson was af ar better hitter and fighter. Holyfield is durable, but for one punch power, he could be denetd and hurt. Bowe and Cooper and Dokes showed this. Tyson is a far more dangerous hitter than these lads.

So you're going for Tyson?

I think Holyfield threw a lot more in his prime and nearly every punch was a hurtful one. While I cant see him knocking Tyson out cold I can see him landing a lot of leather and the fight being waved off. Tyson could be rocked and if Holy rocked him like Bruno did he'd be straight on him and wouldnt let him of the hook as easily.

walshb

Maravilla33 wrote: »

So you're going for Tyson?

I think Holyfield threw a lot more in his prime and nearly every punch was a hurtful one. While I cant see him knocking Tyson out cold I can see him landing a lot of leather and the fight being waved off. Tyson could be rocked and if Holy rocked him like Bruno did he'd be straight on him and wouldnt let him of the hook as easily.

Couple points: Bruno was a helluva single shot hitter. Caught Mike, rocked him, but for a millisecond. That was it.

Holyfield in 1996 threw a ton of shots, and probably heavier shots too. He was bigger and physically stronger too.

Tyson's D in 1996 was not near as good as it was in 1986. So, I cannot envisage Holyfield landing near as much flush shots on the 1986 Tyson.

When one considers this, that Holyfield won't land as flush as much, and that Mike in 1986 was fitter, faster, better defence and better overall chin, then a KO win is really remote for Holyfield. Holyfield threw everything at the likes of Dokes and Foreman and couldn't get them clean out. Dokes eventually crumbled. But, do you really believe Tyson will take that many clean shots? No way!

Holyfield is in the real danger zone when he unloads. Tyson then has the ability to catch him flush. I don't think Holyfield survives Mikes' flush shots.

Holyfield bulked up in the mid 90s big time, and took an even better shot because of this

Cooper badly rocked him. Bowe too. This was the early 90s.

gene_tunney

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Wow is that you commenting on boxing rather than how dumb I am? Fair enough analysis all the same.

I don't recall ever telling you that you're dumb; I usually attack the post and not the poster. :cool:

Maravilla33

walshb wrote: »

Couple points: Bruno was a helluva single shot hitter. Caught Mike, rocked him, but for a millisecond. That was it.

Holyfield in 1996 threw a ton of shots, and probably heavier shots too. He was bigger and physically stronger too.

Tyson's D in 1996 was not near as good as it was in 1986. So, I cannot envisage Holyfield landing near as much flush shots on the 1986 Tyson.

When one considers this, that Holyfield won't land as flush as much, and that Mike in 1986 was fitter, faster, better defence and better overall chin, then a KO win is really remote for Holyfield. Holyfield threw everything at the likes of Dokes and Foreman and couldn't get them clean out. Dokes eventually crumbled. But, do you really believe Tyson will take that many clean shots? No way!

Holyfield is in the real danger zone when he unloads. Tyson then has the ability to catch him flush. I don't think Holyfield survives Mikes' flush shots.

Holyfield bulked up in the mid 90s big time, and took an even better shot because of this

Cooper badly rocked him. Bowe too. This was the early 90s.

Already agreed with you to an extent. If Cooper can badly shake him up then Tyson can finish him. It all depends what kind of fight Holyfield fought. I disagree that he punched any harder in 1996 than before. He stopped the vast majority of his opponents when he first moved up to heavyweight and threw more shots. I also think the Bowe fights were savage and took alot out of him.

Obviously Mike was alot better back in the late 80s but its not like he was Willie Pep defence wise. He could be hit. Most opponents were too worried about what he was doing and didn't put too much of an attack together. Holyfield would come out firing. He'd hit him often and relatively hard. He could afford to take a few shots (not too many mind) to do this. In my view he would have a great chance of beating the invincible "Prime Mike Tyson" His jab is key here for me.

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

I don't recall ever telling you that you're dumb; I usually attack the post and not the poster. :cool:

Really? Strange way to attack a post. I usually outline why it's poor, lacking or off the mark.:) I input!

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Really? Strange way to attack a post. I usually outline why it's poor, lacking or off the mark.:) I input!

Officially he did not attack the poster but I agree you could answer the post with your disagreement, would help the debate better too

RoverZT

walshb wrote: »

Couple points: Bruno was a helluva single shot hitter. Caught Mike, rocked him, but for a millisecond. That was it.

Holyfield in 1996 threw a ton of shots, and probably heavier shots too. He was bigger and physically stronger too.

Tyson's D in 1996 was not near as good as it was in 1986. So, I cannot envisage Holyfield landing near as much flush shots on the 1986 Tyson.

When one considers this, that Holyfield won't land as flush as much, and that Mike in 1986 was fitter, faster, better defence and better overall chin, then a KO win is really remote for Holyfield. Holyfield threw everything at the likes of Dokes and Foreman and couldn't get them clean out. Dokes eventually crumbled. But, do you really believe Tyson will take that many clean shots? No way!

Holyfield is in the real danger zone when he unloads. Tyson then has the ability to catch him flush. I don't think Holyfield survives Mikes' flush shots.

Holyfield bulked up in the mid 90s big time, and took an even better shot because of this

Cooper badly rocked him. Bowe too. This was the early 90s.

Tyson would have beaten Holyfield in 86.

Holy wasn't ready for him at that time, too small and wouldn't be able to hurt Tyson imo.

Tyson could have beat him in 1996 if he had a plan and someone in his corner.He was doing fine at times in that fight and didn't look finished, even though he was.

First few rounds he was winning just didn't have the fitness, heart for it.

The post prison Tyson had declined greatly in quickness, and stamina, yet he still won the first rounds of fight, it wouldn't take a much better version of Tyson to win that night.

That's in 1996, 10 years past his prime.

I would agree with Kevin Rooney's take on it.

I would have sent Mike right after him. Get right in Holyfield's face! AND, move his head more. That was Mike's main ingredient.

Moving his head. It made him difficult to fight. When a fighter throws a punch at another fighter, and it doesn't land, he becomes more cautious and won't throw that same punch.

The guy gets confused. That's when a guy like Mike, who's moving his head, can land his punches and knock the guy out.

If Mike had the proper training, with me in his corner, he would have knocked Holyfield out. There is no question about it.

All Tyson needed was belief, because in all honesty he was capable of beating anyone, at anytime in his prime.

As Walshb has said Holy doesn't have the TNT to hurt a prime Tyson, he is not a big hitter, a 20 year old Tyson could put any man on his ass.

He's is not going to be scared of 200lb Holy in 86, no way.

walshb

RoverZT wrote: »

Tyson would have beaten Holyfield in 86.

Holy wasn't ready for him at that time, too small and wouldn't be able to hurt Tyson imo.
.

I agree with all you say; just wanted to clear this up. In case you may have thought that I was pitting Holyfield from 1986 vs. Tyson from 1986, this is not the case.

Tyson 1986-1988 vs. Holyfield 1990-1992. This match IMO goes Tyson's way by KO.