Wlads opponents v Listons, compare

cowzerp

Maravilla33 wrote: »

But I haven't said Wlad isn't good?

The debate is are the opponents good right now.

Lets compare Liston's top 5 and Wlads top 5.

No point in putting in Ali as he easy beat Liston so it's not really useful to the point.

So Liston's top 5 would be

1. Patterson

2. Williams

3. Roy Harris

4. Mike dejohn

5. Nino Valdez

Wlad's would be, could be lots of other 5's to be honest unlike Liston's.

1. Byrd

2. Peter 1

3. Chagaev

4. Chambers

5. Haye

Maravilla33

cowzerp wrote: »

The debate is are the opponents good right now.

Lets compare Liston's top 5 and Wlads top 5.

No point in putting in Ali as he easy beat Liston so it's not really useful to the point.

So Liston's top 5 would be

1. Patterson

2. Williams

3. Roy Harris

4. Mike dejohn

5. Nino Valdez

Wlad's would be, could be lots of other 5's to be honest unlike Liston's.

1. Byrd

2. Peter 1

3. Chagaev

4. Chambers

5. Haye

OK. I'm always wary of doing this as its possible to pick apart most people's records.

Byrd - I like. Fast, tricky and elusive. Quite small though and proof that if you have the skills you can overcome size disadvantages. Nothing special but a good win.

Peter - I really don't rate this guy and no one will ever convince me otherwise. Limited, fat, one dimensional slugger with a decent punch. No footwork simply wades in throwing overhand right and wide hooks. Had beat nobody before facing Wlad. Fair play to Wlad for recovering from the knockdowns to win but shouldn't have ever been in that position.

Chagaev - Good solid win.

Chambers - See my comments about Byrd

Haye - Good dominating performance but Haye has done nothing at the weight. Talked a better fight than he fought.

One thing I notice is most of the guys above are fairly small heavys, hmmmmm....

Maravilla33

Woops posted in wrong thread I'd have Eddie Machen and Zora Folley in Liston's best opponents list.

Maravilla33

Again I am not arguing that Liston's opponents were amazing. Patterson and Cleveland Williams x2 are his stand out wins. He fought a lot of dross and a few good solid fighters.

I find that you over rate Wlad's foes. He's also fought a lot of dross and some good solid fighters. His stand out wins for me are Byrd, Chagaev and Ibragimov (even though I nearly fell asleep watching this one)

sxt

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Again I am not arguing that Liston's opponents were amazing. Patterson and Cleveland Williams x2 are his stand out wins. He fought a lot of dross and a few good solid fighters.

I find that you over rate Wlad's foes. He's also fought a lot of dross and some good solid fighters. His stand out wins for me are Byrd, Chagaev and Ibragimov (even though I nearly fell asleep watching this one)

Any decent heavyweight ( i'm not even talking about world champions) from the last 50 years would beat Floyd Patterson (he is fighting at the weight of a tiny crusierweight, who fought most his fights at middle weight) and Cleveland Williams ( a fighter known for bum slaying and avoiding opponents). Times have changed alot.

Cleveland Williams frequently fought even more outlandish bums than Sonny Liston and never came close to winning a title in a very weak era. T . I would favour Audley Harrison against both Floyd Patterson and Cleveland Williams. David haye at cruiserweight and Marco huck at cruiseweight would beat these guys


I think you will find that Vlads opponents are underated , and sonny listons opponents are overated . The media have created a mythical aura around some fighters like Rocky and Sonny liston which keeps growing it seems , if you read any American forum.

They may have been great fighters for their day , but that is as far as it goes

gene_tunney

sxt wrote: »

Any decent heavyweight ( i'm not even talking about world champions) from the last 50 years would beat Floyd Patterson (he is fighting at the weight of a tiny crusierweight, who fought most his fights at middle weight) and Cleveland Williams ( a fighter known for bum slaying and avoiding opponents). Times have changed alot.

Cleveland Williams frequently fought even more outlandish bums than Sonny Liston and never came close to winning a title in a very weak era. T . I would favour Audley Harrison against both Floyd Patterson and Cleveland Williams. David haye at cruiserweight and Marco huck at cruiseweight would beat these guys


I think you will find that Vlads opponents are underated , and sonny listons opponents are overated . The media have created a mythical aura around some fighters like Rocky and Sonny liston which keeps growing it seems , if you read any American forum.

They may have been great fighters for their day , but that is as far as it goes

Good post, especially on the mythical aura which has been created around certain fighters.

Enjoyed the term "outlandish bums" lol

Maravilla33

sxt wrote: »

Cleveland Williams frequently fought even more outlandish bums than Sonny Liston and never came close to winning a title in a very weak era. T . I would favour Audley Harrison against both Floyd Patterson and Cleveland Williams. David haye at cruiserweight and Marco huck at cruiseweight would beat these guys

Oh dear. So misinformed...

section4

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Oh dear. So misinformed...

i agree, absolute hogwash.
He beat

Oscar Bonavena
Went 15 rounds with Jimmy Ellis
Drew with Jerry Quarry over 12
Went 12 rounds with Ali
beat George Chuvalo
Beat Eddie Macheni
Beat Roy Harris
Stopped Ingemar Johnanson twicea

All rated at the time.

I am absolutely certain if Floyd Peterson was within a couple of stone with Vlad he would beat him easily.
Better Heart
better Chin
Tougher
Faster Puncher
More determined/
Much More Agile/

Pound for pound Floyd Patterson would wipe the Floor with any of the Klitchkos of that I haver no doubt.

badabing106

section4 wrote: »

I am absolutely certain if Floyd Peterson was within a couple of stone with Vlad he would beat him easily.
Better Heart
better Chin
Tougher
Faster Puncher
More determined/
Much More Agile/

Pound for pound Floyd Patterson would wipe the Floor with any of the Klitchkos of that I haver no doubt.

Floyd and Vladamir were both heavy weight boxers

Do you think Floyd could have weighed a couple of stone more and retained his speed and agility ?

Floyd has a better chin? Are you having a laugh?

I may be wrong , bit I would think that Vladamir is one of the most agile and fastest punchers for his size in the history of heavy weight boxing ever?

I don't think anyone body could question Vladamirs Heart , toughness and determination ? Vladamir has proven his heart , toughness and determination if you know anything about his boxing career

terrymccarthy05

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Oh dear. So misinformed...

Yes misinformed.

cowzerp

section4 wrote: »

I am absolutely certain if Floyd Peterson was within a couple of stone with Vlad he would beat him easily.
Better Heart
better Chin
Tougher
Faster Puncher
More determined/
Much More Agile/

Pound for pound Floyd Patterson would wipe the Floor with any of the Klitchkos of that I haver no doubt.

wrong on all accounts, Agility maybe but what do you expect when he is far smaller!

His chin is poor and he would not last a round with either brother-adding on 2 stone would slow him down and to be straight your making a totally different fighter-pound for pound is stupid when talking about people who would have fought in the same division and in this case a cop out

section4

badabing106 wrote: »

Floyd and Vladamir were both heavy weight boxers

Do you think Floyd could have weighed a couple of stone more and retained his speed and agility ?

Floyd has a better chin? Are you having a laugh?

I may be wrong , bit I would think that Vladamir is one of the most agile and fastest punchers for his size in the history of heavy weight boxing ever?

I don't think anyone body could question Vladamirs Heart , toughness and determination ? Vladamir has proven his heart , toughness and determination if you know anything about his boxing career

what is your rationale for saying that vlad has a better chin than floyd patterson or what is your rationale for saying that Floyd pattersons chin is worse than vlads.