Owed money for music gear ......

ShadowFax

Hey Guys,

I played in a rock band from approx May 2011 until March 2012. Around Nov/Dec 2011 the band purchased a whole new set up including a P.A., Speakers, Mixing Desk etc, which we used from January 2012.

The approx cost of the gear purchased was around €4500. This was paid for using money from gigs we all played as band.

I also made a €150 payment for gear for myself that I never actually used or even seen as it arrived the day before I left the band at one of the band members homes.


I figure I'm owed: €4500/4 = €1125

€750 (minus €375 for using the gear for a very ltd period)
€150

---

€900


I left the band in March 2012 on good terms with the band members. At the time I left I was talking to one of the guys and I said we will need to sort out the gear situation at some stage considering I was owed money from it. He said he would talk to the other guys.

I have since tried calling and texting him since that and have received no answers at all!

As of today, the band are still gigging and they are using the gear also. They have a new member, wo replaced me who is using the all the gear I paid for too.

My question what way is the best to get my money back. Will a solicitor handle this? I would prefer to send them a reg letter from a solicitor looking for payment for what I owed.

Thanks for any help

Procrastastudy

Charter so I'll try and get this in here before it closed but what makes you think you're owed any money. You left didn't you?

ShadowFax

Yeah I left, so what?

I made payment totalling €1275 for gear.

Whether I left or not, I still part own the gear, to which I am not allowed to use if I needed to due to their unwillingness to answer my calls/texts...

edanto

I think this thread might get better suggestions/responses in the Band/Musician forum. I don't think legal is an avenue for you (the cost of legal would quickly approach the value of the goods) and in any case only hypothetical legal discussions are allowed here.

I think your best option would be to approach them (maybe after a gig) and explain that you really need the money - could they repay your 'investment' from future gig earnings. Might be a bit greedy to seek full repayment, but they should see the fairness in 'buying you out'.

End result; you would get some cash back and still be on good terms with the people concerned. Even mentioning legal will ruin any friendship - don't do it.

Procrastastudy

Your problem is absent a contract, which I presume is the case, there are several ways this could be looked at. I dont think any of them would be what you've described. Even if it was as has been said the cost of recovery would be more than the gear.

As the gear was paid for out of gig money it could be argued that you guys got paid what was left and the equipent belongs to the band bit like a company. (It probably clear by now I havent done company law)

beeftotheheels

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Your problem is absent a contract, which I presume is the case, there are several ways this could be looked at. I dont think any of them would be what you've described. Even if it was as has been said the cost of recovery would be more than the gear.

As the gear was paid for out of gig money it could be argued that you guys got paid what was left and the equipent belongs to the band bit like a company. (It probably clear by now I havent done company law)

It wouldn't be a company since you need to form one of those.

Possibly a partnership under the 1890 Act without a written partnership agreement so then you'd be looking at partnership law if the band were intending to operate a business together. Intentions of the parties is going to get messy.

The retirement of one partner technically brings to an end that partnership so there might be an argument for partnership assets being divested to the partners but it could be a tricky one in the absence of an agreement and the costs would more than likely swamp the amounts at stake.

Procrastastudy

Thanks beef - this will be my pet project this afternoon - I can imagine there's never been a band break up that didnt end up in court!

It amazing the things I'll do to avoid doing my actual work.

beeftotheheels

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Thanks beef - this will be my pet project this afternoon - I can imagine there's never been a band break up that didnt end up in court!

It amazing the things I'll do to avoid doing my actual work.

Actually partnership law is often misunderstood or indeed forgotten about, especially when one can arise without being formally constituted purely by carrying on a business together.

Twomey's book is the one you want if you can lay your hands on it. Pretty pricey I seem to recall if you can't get it in the library.

http://www.partnershiplaw.ie/

ShadowFax

I don't know if this matters but this band was gigging but were not registered for vat/tax

Thanks alot for all your responses.

I just wanted to know was it possible for a solicitor to take this on with merely a registered letter stating the facts?

Procrastastudy

Thinking about it though something you said before has just hit home. It is probably very easy to prove there was never any intention to create legal relations and therefore this would not be looked at by a court.

As you said it could get messy - but I'm willing to bet real money the guys never paid any tax etc on the gig earnings so this was just a loose arrangement between friends.

As is the case I am usually wrong so if anyone wants to correct me...

EDIT: Posted at the same time as Shadowfax. Ref the Solicitor you're probably looking at E200 odd for the consultation and letter. Beyond that they would need a theory for recovery.

BTW: What happened to the old gear? Not exactly a legal theory but maybe you could have that so you at least have something if the suggestion of approaching them doesnt work.

Grolschevik

ShadowFax wrote: »

I don't know if this matters but this band was gigging but were not registered for vat/tax

Thanks alot for all your responses.

I just wanted to know was it possible for a solicitor to take this on with merely a registered letter stating the facts?

You might get a solicitor to write a letter -- and you'll pay for that, of course -- but a solicitor's letter is just a letter: it has no force, except to put the other guys on notice that you're serious about this. However, if they ignore it, as others have said, you may not get very far.

beeftotheheels

ShadowFax wrote: »

I don't know if this matters but this band was gigging but were not registered for vat/tax

Thanks alot for all your responses.

I just wanted to know was it possible for a solicitor to take this on with merely a registered letter stating the facts?

Now that would depend on whether you were in fact liable for tax, and while it would have no bearing on your relationship with your band mates, it is something you might want to think about in terms of actually pushing the matter.

Below are some of the Revenue leaflets. You might also want to think about USC but it will all come down to how much you earned and what other income you have.

Income tax would be on a personal basis if you were a partner under self assessment. VAT would be at the partnership level since it would be the partnership which would have had to have operated VAT.

There are some income tax returns that a partnership should have completed, but that's administrative rather than operative.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/forms/form1-firms.pdf

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/registration/index.html#reg2

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it10.html

Predalien

I don't see the need for a contract or a partnership in this situation. He was a part owner of the equipment and still is.

littlemac1980

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Thanks beef - this will be my pet project this afternoon - I can imagine there's never been a band break up that didnt end up in court!

It amazing the things I'll do to avoid doing my actual work.

There's a very relevant case regarding partnership law in the live music performance industry the involving the Smiths, I think its Joyce v. Morrisey.

I don't agree that this is more appropriately a 'band thread' discussion, this is a legal issue, and one that a solicitor should be able to assist you with.

There are some evidential issues that would need to be overcome, but it should be possible to determine the likelihood of a favourable outcome before you commit to substantial expense.

If you have a regular solicitor, or one that you've used before, they would be the best to give you a low cost appraisal of your situation.

Provided you avoid the large firms of Solicitors, many smaller practices may provide a free of charge first consultation to you which would give you a reasonable idea of your options.

If you shop around, and ask members of family, or close friends for recommendations, they could provide you with the name of one who would do it on this basis.

Most small firms will see it as an opportunity to potentially procure a new client, (who may well turn out to be long term, if they are kept happy) and will take a pragmatic approach.

Procrastastudy

Predalien wrote: »

I don't see the need for a contract or a partnership in this situation. He was a part owner of the equipment and still is.

Thats fair enough but he's looking for them to buy him out - how does he force that?

How would someone over come the ITCLR aspect of a few mates giging togeather?

Does the fact that the equipment was bought out of gig money have any bearing. I'd certianly be arguing we got paid E400 for a gig E200 of that was for gear and we each took E50 for payment.

ShadowFax

Thanks for all the responses guys.

IMO I think a solictors letter would be enough to get this sorted out.

Thanks BEEFTOTHEHEELS for all the revenue info.

Basically we never took any money from gigs for months to pay for the gear. We all used it. Now the guys have a replacement who is using the gear without any cost and figuring I paid for 25% of it, I feel I'm owed what I paid for it, minus a few hundred as way of it being used for a few months.

Let this guy pay his share for the gear and it's use.

Thanks again, appreciate all the effort & info in the responses.

Predalien

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Thats fair enough but he's looking for them to buy him out - how does he force that?

How would someone over come the ITCLR aspect of a few mates giging togeather?

Does the fact that the equipment was bought out of gig money have any bearing. I'd certianly be arguing we got paid E400 for a gig E200 of that was for gear and we each took E50 for payment.

I agree it's a difficult situation to force, it's more the kind of thing you need Judge Judy for!

I personally don't think there was any intention to create legal relations, I simply think they bought equipment together and each are entitled to an equal share, so it's up to them all to sort out a deal to buy him out, a solicitors letter might help just to give them a push to work out something, but realistically it's more of a matter of them paying him back for his investment in the equipment, I'd argue it's a mere gentleman's agreement which isn't legally enforceable.

ShadowFax

Can this sort of situation be sorted out by the Small Claims Court?

Predalien

ShadowFax wrote: »

Can this sort of situation be sorted out by the Small Claims Court?

Afraid not, small claims court is mostly for consumer disputes.

youtube!

Hate to say this to the OP but unless the guys want to be fair and honest with you and actually come to some arrangement I would not think there is much hope of you getting anything back from them.

I have seen this kind of situation with many bands over the years and it hardly ever ends well for the old member, basically they have forgotten about you now , your in the past tense. Legally I don't think you have a leg to stand on and whatever small chance you may have to appeal to their sense of fair play if you send a solicitors letter you have no blown that chance. Good luck and I hope it works out but I seriously doubt that it will.

ShadowFax

Thanks for all the info guys.

I'll be meeting up with a solicitor at the weekend. I'll get him to send a letter. I'm positive that'll get it sorted.

edanto

I would think that by sending a solicitors letter to a group of friends (at one stage, they were, right?) you are going to alienate them badly, and like youtube!, I think it will reduce your chances of getting any cash back to zero.

I know you are exasperated trying to contact them, but I would think you have your best chance of success by staying on good terms with the group and convincing them to give you some cash back from their future gig takings, in the interest of fairness. Meet them at rehearsal or a gig.

ShadowFax

To class them as friends? Don't really know.

I never knew them before I joined the band, I was in the band for less than a year and they live approx 70 miles away in a different county/town. So as for alienating them ... doesn't bother me.

I have tried contacting them with calls and texts and nothing from them!

And it's not as If i really need the cash, it's the principle to be honest.

I think they are the ones who have more than alienated me, through not answering calls and texts. Plus they deleted me from their facebook friends list and from the band facebook page, without me even knowing, so I'd get it hard to find out where there playing.

They ain't making it easy, so the last resort I think is a solicitor as I know they would take heed of it. Sort it out pretty quick I'd say.

Thanks for your response edanto. Appreciate it.

Grolschevik

ShadowFax wrote: »

I never knew them before I joined the band, I was in the band for less than a year and they live approx 70 miles away in a different county/town.

I have tried contacting them with calls and texts and nothing from them!

Plus they deleted me from their facebook friends list and from the band facebook page, without me even knowing,

They ain't making it easy, so the last resort I think is a solicitor as I know they would take heed of it. Sort it out pretty quick I'd say.

Given all that, realistically I think you're talking about "blood out of a stone" territory.

Again, a solicitor's letter has no formal weight. Are they the type to be nervous and/or impressed? Chances are if you get one sent, they'd be on here the next week and be told to ignore it...

ShadowFax

It's either that or nothing!

Procrastastudy

They'll come and post on boards! :P

Grolschevik

ShadowFax wrote: »

It's either that or nothing!

Offer to rent them your share!

edanto

Well how about a letter from yourself first? Just lay it out calmly and ask for them to repay you, you're happy that they are still using the gear, and glad that things are on good terms.

You have many more options before going down the solicitor route - and the solicitor route shuts the doors to all the other options. Here are some ideas:

- send a letter to the band leader and ask him/her to call you about this. If ignored;
- similar letter to other members. If ignored....
- post on facebook wall asking band leader to phone you. Don't reference the cash/gear at all publicly. If ignored..
- go to a gig/jam. Surely it can't be that hard to find where they are playing? Your comment about being removed from the facebook page is confusing. If you were removed as an admin, then you would still be able to see their public posts about gigs? If ignored...
- You could email the band leader a link to this thread!!


Then you're into the territory of a solicitors letter. It is not a panacea - it will make the situation more tense and you want to do it as a last resort. Use your creativity to think of non-legal system ways to get what you want. Your chances of success are much greater.

ShadowFax

Grolschevik wrote: »

Offer to rent them your share!

Well there is another drummer using my gear, he should pay his share, like I did. I sent them an email just there, very calm, well mannered mail, just laying it all out in plain english, so we'll see what happens.

Thanks alot lads for all the info, posts and taking the time to reply. I appreciate it alot. Cheers

Delancey

TBH OP your situation is a very common one when it comes to bands - that's Rock n' Roll .
If you were to go to a Solicitor you will come away with a lighter wallet and probably not much else.

Pkiernan

ShadowFax wrote: »

Well there is another drummer using my gear, he should pay his share, like I did. I sent them an email just there, very calm, well mannered mail, just laying it all out in plain english, so we'll see what happens.

Thanks alot lads for all the info, posts and taking the time to reply. I appreciate it alot. Cheers

Can you keep us updated please?

castie

If your in part ownership and the other party is not willing to buy you out can you force a liquidation?

I remember similar happening with a big pub chain a few years ago.
Two guys owned it and one wanted out and forced the other to liquidate alot of the assests to get his share.