whats the best fixed-time AI CIDR best practice for beef cows?

SoJoMo

Folks
I'm looking for the most sucessful method of using CIDRs with fixed-timed AI (I wont be using Heat Detectors).
My Vet says that PRIDS are going\gone out of fashion and most people use CIDRs.
The way he does it is
Day 0 - install CIDR
Day 6 - inject with Estrumate
Day 7 - remove CIDR
Day 10 - AI - (I would intend to AI on day 9 or 11 as well)
Now having looking on the internet it seems that a 5 day program using GnRH and Etrumate has better results.
http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AS/AS_575_W.pdf

Here is info on the methods (7 day and 5 day) from Iowabeefcenter.org or Beefrepro.unl.edu
http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/estrussynch/s29.pdf
http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/estrussynch/s22.pdf


So what do you guys use and whats your sucess rate?

Have you heard of\used the 5 day program and\or GnRH?

Thanks
S

john mayo 10

I am thinking of trying the CIDR method this year and was wondering roughly how much a head does it cost?

SoJoMo

Hi John

Didnt get a final cost yet but the vet told me a few days ago that with would roughly cost €11 for the CIDRs + €4 for the Recptal\GnRH
Then add call out fee ~50-60!! ... not cheap.

S

pajero12

SoJoMo wrote: »

Hi John

Didnt get a final cost yet but the vet told me a few days ago that with would roughly cost €11 for the CIDRs + €4 for the Recptal\GnRH
Then add call out fee ~50-60!! ... not cheap.

S

There's no need for a vet for that job?

SoJoMo

Pajero12

SoJoMo

Pajero12, what you say would be right. I tried to buy the CIDRs and applicator online but could not and so guessed that the vet has to do all,
My vet did the job this morning (I was not there so dont know the final price) but thinking about it I should have just asked him for the inserts and applicator. Easy money for him and would have been easy saving for me.
AI technicians should be allowed to do that stuff themselves anyways as part of the AI service.

sh1tstirrer

I wouldn't be a great fan of fixed time ai. A neighbour of mind used fixed time ai with his heifers last year, he injected them with lutalyse twice then ai'd them twice. End result out of 20 heifers two went in calf. It was a costly exercise for him.

Lizard_Moon

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

I wouldn't be a great fan of fixed time ai. A neighbour of mind used fixed time ai with his heifers last year, he injected them with lutalyse twice then ai'd them twice. End result out of 20 heifers two went in calf. It was a costly exercise for him.

If the heifers are not cycling then the Prostaglandin (Lutalyse etc) won't work. If not cycling need to look at early heifer management.

They reckon the Kamar type heat detectors work better than tail paint in heifers.

The above info from the Moorepark Dairy cow fertility conference.

SoJoMo

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

If the heifers are not cycling then the Prostaglandin (Lutalyse etc) won't work. If not cycling need to look at early heifer management.

They reckon the Kamar type heat detectors work better than tail paint in heifers.

The above info from the Moorepark Dairy cow fertility conference.

hey Lizard, any more info from the Moorepark conference?
Did they give stats on pregnancy rates of the various AI programs, especially the Time AI CIDR one?
Did they mention if the use of GnRH was worthwhile?

tismesoitis

we regularly use cidrs. is a cow does'nt show heat after 50 days give or take we lob one in.
day 0 insert cidr
day 9 inject 2cc estrumate
day 10 pull out cidr(clean for 2nd usage if it was new going into this cow)
day 12 cows normally in heat serve 10 - 12 hours after standing heat
day 13 serve everthing else.

we find less than half the cows served without showing heat hold(about 40%) but we only use the €5 gene ireland straws on these so its well worth it.
We're very happy with the cidr system last year we had a 390 day avg calving interval with 100% ai and this year hoping for better;).

SoJoMo

jaysus tismesoitis, the only way you can improve on those figures is if the calves are born pregnant!

wow, you remove cidr after 10 days!? have you ever done the 7 day or 5 day protocol?

Is it better to inject with estrumate the day before cidr removal?

and should you (timed-) AI them 72 hours after estrumate injection or is it after cidr removal?

Do you inject GnRH at CIDR insert and removal?

tismesoitis

SoJoMo wrote: »

jaysus tismesoitis, the only way you can improve on those figures is if the calves are born pregnant!

wow, you remove cidr after 10 days!? have you ever done the 7 day or 5 day protocol?

Is it better to inject with estrumate the day before cidr removal?

and should you (timed-) AI them 72 hours after estrumate injection or is it after cidr removal?

Do you inject GnRH at CIDR insert and removal?

never tried the 5 or 7 day job this is what vet showed us a number of years back and it works for us. only other thing we do is on the last run of services before end of bulling season we inject with 2cc receptal on day 11 after service it seems to improve conception.

SoJoMo

Great ... do what works for you!

Anyone who wants an Estrus Synchronization Planner can check this out
http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/estrus_synch.html
you just have to give basic details and then get to download this
http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/estrussynch/essynch.xls

john mayo 10

SoJoMo wrote: »

jaysus tismesoitis, the only way you can improve on those figures is if the calves are born pregnant!

wow, you remove cidr after 10 days!? have you ever done the 7 day or 5 day protocol?

Is it better to inject with estrumate the day before cidr removal?

and should you (timed-) AI them 72 hours after estrumate injection or is it after cidr removal?

Do you inject GnRH at CIDR insert and removal?

Had the vet examine a cow on tuesday that calfed 60 days ago.He said she wasnt cycling so he advised using a cidr. She got 2ml of ovarelin and had the cidr inserted on tuesday morning, I have to remove it next tuesday morning and give her 2ml of genestran, 56hrs later 1ml of ovarelin and fixed time ai 16 hrs later. I will let you know how i get on .

Lizard_Moon

There are lots of different variations on CIDR regimes.
Nearly every year there is a new tweak!

OP sorry cant get info on specific numbers and I apologise for any inaccuracies but the CIDR timed AI (TAI)and CIDR served when seen (OBS) had similar numbers. The TAI had 100% submission, obviously and OBS had better conception rates so overall the pregnancy rate results similar.

Anoestrus, non cycling, cows don't respond well to OVYSYNCH

They say that progesterone -CIDR or PRID- containing program's work best in anoestrus cows. Can also use a CiDr with an OVYSYNCH but not familiar with that.

Taken from: "use of controlled breeding programs in seasonal calving systems"
Stephen Butler and Mary Herlihy
Dairy Cow fertility conference, moorepark 2012

SoJoMo

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Had the vet examine a cow on tuesday that calfed 60 days ago.He said she wasnt cycling so he advised using a cidr. She got 2ml of ovarelin and had the cidr inserted on tuesday morning, I have to remove it next tuesday morning and give her 2ml of genestran, 56hrs later 1ml of ovarelin and fixed time ai 16 hrs later. I will let you know how i get on .

Yeah let us know how you got on and the price you were charged.

I'm doing similar but after removing CIDR (+inject estrumate\genestran) and AI cow 66 hours later and again the next day along with a shot of GnRH\ovarelin

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

There are lots of different variations on CIDR regimes.
Nearly every year there is a new tweak!

Taken from: "use of controlled breeding programs in seasonal calving systems"
Stephen Butler and Mary Herlihy
Dairy Cow fertility conference, moorepark 2012

Cheers, thats enough for me, TAI works ok!
Research from the states seems to sugest that the 5 day programe has more conception rates (it uses two shots of estrumate between CIDR removal and TAI) but for this year I'll go with the 7 day.

Thanks for the Moorpark info .... PDF here:
http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2012/1162/Dairy_Cow_Fertility_Proceedings_2012.pdf

redzerologhlen

One of the friends put cidrs into ten cows and heifers last week. Injecting today and pulling cidr's tomorrow. Will let ye know how it goes monday and tuesday.

SoJoMo

wow, alot of people doing the estrumate shot the day before cidr removal .... might try that
anyonw know the biological reasoning for this?

redzerologhlen

We put on kamar heat detectors on the cows friday evening and pulled the cidrs yesterday morning. 3 standing at the minute with the patches gone red and 3 more on the points of it. I suppose the other 4 will come tonight/tomorrow. He reckons the kamar patches are a great job.

1chippy

put cidrs in a good few cows this year. ai man told me to leave it in ten days in ject with estrumate on day nine and take out cidrs on day ten cows should be bulling 48 hrs after removal. all so far were bulling exactly 48 hrs.Put cows back out with stock bull a couple of days later (just to be safe) so far i havent seen any repeating. done two yesterday and was talking to vet. he said to give a shot of reciptol when putting in cidrs that it is the best for results on cows only barely calved the 40 days. thought it was a bit expensive adding e15 on top of cidr programme, so just stuck with usual programme.

Lizard_Moon

SoJoMo wrote: »

wow, alot of people doing the estrumate shot the day before cidr removal .... might try that
anyonw know the biological reasoning for this?

Initial programs suggested Estrumate injection 24 hrs before CIDR removal. Recent advice is that the Estrumate can be given at time of removal. Easier in sucklers as less handling.
Also 10 days is too long to leave in a CidR, actually lower conception rates if left as long as they used to advise.

I have no references for this.

SoJoMo

redzerologhlen wrote: »

We put on kamar heat detectors on the cows friday evening and pulled the cidrs yesterday morning. 3 standing at the minute with the patches gone red and 3 more on the points of it. I suppose the other 4 will come tonight/tomorrow. He reckons the kamar patches are a great job.

Standing heat 24 hours after cidr removal!!??

1chippy wrote: »

put cidrs in a good few cows this year. ai man told me to leave it in ten days in ject with estrumate on day nine and take out cidrs on day ten cows should be bulling 48 hrs after removal. all so far were bulling exactly 48 hrs.Put cows back out with stock bull a couple of days later (just to be safe) so far i havent seen any repeating. done two yesterday and was talking to vet. he said to give a shot of reciptol when putting in cidrs that it is the best for results on cows only barely calved the 40 days. thought it was a bit expensive adding e15 on top of cidr programme, so just stuck with usual programme.

So AI'ing 12 hours after standing = 60 hours after cidr removal

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Initial programs suggested Estrumate injection 24 hrs before CIDR removal. Recent advice is that the Estrumate can be given at time of removal. Easier in sucklers as less handling.
Also 10 days is too long to leave in a CidR, actually lower conception rates if left as long as they used to advise.

Thanks Lizard

I'm just going to go with the 7 day- Cid+receptal, Cdir remove+estrumate, TAI(twice 24 hrs apart)+receptal

redzerologhlen

SoJoMo wrote: »

Standing heat 24 hours after cidr removal!!

More like 36 hours, we took them out at six in the morning. There was 7 of the standing at 5 o clock. Hes going to ai around ten and again at 6:30 in the morning. Its what the man that scanned them recommended.

john mayo 10

Removed cidr yesterday evening and i am due to give her 1m of ovarelin on thrusday morning and ai her 16 hours later. Just wondering if she comes bulling before thursday evening should i still give her the ovarelin

SoJoMo

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Removed cidr yesterday evening and i am due to give her 1m of ovarelin on thrusday morning and ai her 16 hours later. Just wondering if she comes bulling before thursday evening should i still give her the ovarelin

good question

Lizard_Moon

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Removed cidr yesterday evening and i am due to give her 1m of ovarelin on thrusday morning and ai her 16 hours later. Just wondering if she comes bulling before thursday evening should i still give her the ovarelin

Give the Ovarelin(GnRH) at the time of AI if she comes bulling before the scheduled time. GnRH is used to encourage ovulation of the egg. They can be used to improve conception rates in cows not subject to a fixed

SoJoMo

did some cows:
day 0 @am - CIDR inserted + GnRH (Receptal) injected
day 7 @ late pm - CIDR removed + PG (Estrumate) injected
day 10 @ early am - AI + GnRH (receptal) injected
day 10 @ late pm - AI
day 11 @ pm - let in stock bull

Hopefully I'll report back here in 9 months time

Donnelly24

Has anyone used this method when putting embryos in to recipients I have a embryo I wanted to use and was looking at using a cidr on her .

FYM

Donnelly24 wrote: »

Has anyone used this method when putting embryos in to recipients I have a embryo I wanted to use and was looking at using a cidr on her .

This is how i sync heifers / cows for embryo implantation but this is because you need to have the heifer in heat on a given date to suit implantation a week later.

If you happen to observe the heifer in standing heat you could ring the person implanting the embryo for you and he MAY be able to work from the natural heat??

If not, use the CIDR

shepherd41

SoJoMo wrote: »

Folks
I'm looking for the most sucessful method of using CIDRs with fixed-timed AI (I wont be using Heat Detectors).
My Vet says that PRIDS are going\gone out of fashion and most people use CIDRs.
The way he does it is
Day 0 - install CIDR
Day 6 - inject with Estrumate
Day 7 - remove CIDR
Day 10 - AI - (I would intend to AI on day 9 or 11 as well)
Now having looking on the internet it seems that a 5 day program using GnRH and Etrumate has better results.
http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AS/AS_575_W.pdf

Here is info on the methods (7 day and 5 day) from Iowabeefcenter.org or Beefrepro.unl.edu
http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/estrussynch/s29.pdf
http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/estrussynch/s22.pdf


So what do you guys use and whats your sucess rate?

Have you heard of\used the 5 day program and\or GnRH?

Thanks
S

We've also been working with CIDRs for the past 5 years. It works especially well on heifers even if they are showing no signs of heat. We use the following programme to allow for weekend ai (and if they repeat it's at the weekend too):

Wednesday morning = insert CIDR
Following Wednesday morning = inject 2ml Estrumate
Thursday morning = remove CIDR
Cattle usually start coming into heat on Saturday. We ai on Saturday evening late on and Sunday morning again. I find I'm getting about 80 % success first time! I do my own ai. It depends very much on the condition of your cows and the nutrition they are receiving.

Madden171

I put a cidr in a heifer, on a Monday gave estrumate on the following Tuesday and took out that Wednesday, checked heifer Thursday evening and she had a thick slime but no other signs of heat check her the Friday morning, and no sign can't understand why she did show a standing heat I didn't ai her so I wait to see if she comes naturally

Farrell

Madden171 wrote: »

I put a cidr in a heifer, on a Monday gave estrumate on the following Tuesday and took out that Wednesday, checked heifer Thursday evening and she had a thick slime but no other signs of heat check her the Friday morning, and no sign can't understand why she did show a standing heat I didn't ai her so I wait to see if she comes naturally

Not all come into heat after cidr is removed, she could also be a silent heater.
Could you put a weanling/bullock with her & some type of detection aid

heavysteer

SoJoMo wrote: »

wow, alot of people doing the estrumate shot the day before cidr removal .... might try that
anyonw know the biological reasoning for this?

Cidr device is an artificial external source of progesterone the hormone that prevents the animal from coming into heat. The animal also produce its own progesterone from a structure on the ovary called the corpus luteum (CL). For an animal to come into heat progesterone from both sources needs to be gone. Estrumate / Lutylase/ Prostaglandin (PG) gets rid of the CL, thus removing the animals own source of Progesterone. Doing this a day early ensures that any variation in timing of the effect of PG will not effect variation in timing of heat response. Removal of the CIDR the following day, simultanesously in all animals, should give better synchrony of oestrous response as the issue of the animals own progesterone is already dealt with the previous day. Hope this makes sense!

MacraPat

Howiya lads,

I've read the posts above with interest, any chance of an update on what procedures worked best?