Diaspora plead to be able to help Ireland, say they are being impeded - Irish Times

darkman2

....One would think that all is well in Ireland. The truth is far more brutal as Irish governments and institutions, past and present, have been buffeted by a righteous gale of cynicism and outrage. All methods to spur economic progress and recapture the waning confidence of her citizens should be embraced not shunned. When I was a young mayor engaged in a savage labour dispute, my police chief counselled me that there comes a time when diplomacy and common sense serve no purpose; he was right. I abandoned that approach then.

This is another such time.

After years of politicians and bureaucrats catering to their own selfish agendas and thoughtless policies, Ireland is suffering.

I know of other times. I was present during heady events such as the Intel ground breaking and the initiation of the Apple project. I was there when San Jose provided free offices for the IDA to proselytise the merits of Ireland throughout Silicon Valley.

Such help was not the reason for the successes of the Irish tech sector – the energy and entrepreneurial spirit of the Irish did that deed – but it certainly gave it a mighty push. Then it was great to be working together on projects that really helped people....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0423/1224315048624.html




Quite interesting. I thought the government was engaging fully with the diaspora!? According to the former Mayor of San Jose (of all places) they are not. It's incredible in the state we are in that we are not engaging properly with every single interested party abroad that has connections here and wants to help no matter how. What do you make of this?

I'm taking this man at face value of course. It seems strange.

maninasia

It's par for the course.

Scofflaw

If I were being cynical, I might say that those ensconced in paid advisory and strategic positions in Ireland hardly wish to see an influx of successful and globally-competent unpaid strategic advisors from outside Ireland.

Of course, such cynicism barely registers on the cynicism scale.

cordially,
Scofflaw

southsiderosie

To be honest, what did he expect? That the Americans would waltz right in and fix all of Ireland's problems? Do they not think that there are people in Ireland who have made similar proposals and who have also been subsequently ignored? The entire premise behind that op-ed seems rather presumptuous to me.

maninasia

Former mayor of San Jose (Silicon Valley) wants to help, mentions a list of CEOs and higher ups in American multinationals, Disney, Intel etc. were interested to join the boards, and they turned them down. :eek:

The bluff of these self serving incompetents has been called. They want to keep pocketing their directorship fees and putting their own people in place, that's it.

Scofflaw

southsiderosie wrote: »

To be honest, what did he expect? That the Americans would waltz right in and fix all of Ireland's problems? Do they not think that there are people in Ireland who have made similar proposals and who have also been subsequently ignored? The entire premise behind that op-ed seems rather presumptuous to me.

That's true too, of course - and after all, US expertise in nation rebuilding is perhaps not so great.

cordially,
Scofflaw

GSF

Maybe they are a bit naive about how Ireland really operates. They suggest term limits for Dail seats. But the Irish political families have loads of brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces, brothers, etc to use to get around such US concepts. Surely the Kennedy's have taught the Americans that if nothing else.

The might want to update their pitch a bit too - all this talk about perfidious Saxon suggests they are still living in the 1920's. If Ireland is moving forward, these guys are stuck ina time warp themselves.

maninasia

That's not the point. The point is they have million to billions of investment dollars available and a good head for business. They are available, why not use them?

And they are part of the broader Irish community and have played an important part in supporting Ireland for hundreds of years, a very distinct part. Some of them are even Irish passport holders. Just because they have a different history and may have romantic views on some things doesn't mean anything. Their heart is in the right place and THAT IS WHAT COUNTS. This is not the American government or any of that claptrap that's been talked about above, these are individuals who would like to use their own time and money and connections to do something for Ireland.

djpbarry

darkman2 wrote: »

Quite interesting. I thought the government was engaging fully with the diaspora!?

No, I'm still awaiting my call from Enda.

maninasia wrote: »

That's not the point. The point is they have million to billions of investment dollars available and a good head for business. They are available, why not use them?

What exactly is stopping them from investing in Ireland?

Sleepy

djpbarry wrote: »

What exactly is stopping them from investing in Ireland?

A good question but then again, I've personally met an emigrant who didn't very well for himself who couldn't get Trinity to return his phone calls when he was offering a 6 figure donation!

Sponge Bob

The Institute of Tits Directors provided nearly ALL the directors of our banks over the years.

They should be raided by the Special Bank for subversion and shut down as a dangerous scam.

There are a lot fewer boards out there for their 'members' to infest nowadays and they want to keep those jobs for the boys ( and a few girls)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

maninasia

djpbarry wrote: »

No, I'm still awaiting my call from Enda.
What exactly is stopping them from investing in Ireland?

I think the answer is clear from this thread. They are not wanted in the little boys club.

It's not about what's stopping them from investing, but why they are being blocked from joining this institute.
That's the right question.
Yes they could make some money being a director of companies in Ireland, but it's probably small change to most of them. And their contacts and influence would be VERY useful.

djpbarry

maninasia wrote: »

I think the answer is clear from this thread. They are not wanted in the little boys club.

It's not about what's stopping them from investing, but why they are being blocked from joining this institute.

The Institute of Directors is a global organistation with its headquarters in London - it's not an Irish "little boys club".

southsiderosie

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's true too, of course - and after all, US expertise in nation rebuilding is perhaps not so great.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Yes, TBH I read this and my first thought was, "How about you start by fixing the mess that California is in?".

maninasia wrote: »

Just because they have a different history and may have romantic views on some things doesn't mean anything. Their heart is in the right place and THAT IS WHAT COUNTS. This is not the American government or any of that claptrap that's been talked about above, these are individuals who would like to use their own time and money and connections to do something for Ireland.

Again, do you think that there are no people in Ireland whose heart is in the right place and have tried to make these kinds of changes before?

I also have to wonder what the reaction to this proposal would be if a group of British investors proposed swooping in to take over key committees and make major political reforms. I suspect that they would not be welcomed so openly, even though their hearts may be in the right place and Britain is still Ireland's largest trade partner.

Tora Bora

Our great and wise leaders, have much greater plans in store, than allowing yanks, and brits tell how we should clean up our mess.
Enda, has moved on from the yanks and brits, to the Chinese:o
Afterall, who is bank rolling the yanks? The Chinese of course:p

So a little country, I mean parish like Ireland, could feast on a few wontons, falling from the dragon's table:cool:

BFDCH.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Yes, TBH I read this and my first thought was, "How about you start by fixing the mess that California is in?".



Again, do you think that there are no people in Ireland whose heart is in the right place and have tried to make these kinds of changes before?

I also have to wonder what the reaction to this proposal would be if a group of British investors proposed swooping in to take over key committees and make major political reforms. I suspect that they would not be welcomed so openly, even though their hearts may be in the right place and Britain is still Ireland's largest trade partner.

is the point of this thread not about the diaspora trying to help out rather than randon brits or yanks?
As the fella said, their hearts are probably in the right place and if they are that high up in successful organisations then their heads are probably screwed on too.

mikom

If they are not ex-school teachers then they may as well not apply.

southsiderosie

BFDCH. wrote: »

is the point of this thread not about the diaspora trying to help out rather than randon brits or yanks?
As the fella said, their hearts are probably in the right place and if they are that high up in successful organisations then their heads are probably screwed on too.

From what I understood in the article, these are third generation Irish in the US. There are also plenty of British people with an Irish grandparent. Whether you think this makes them 'random' Yanks or not is up to you, but the Irish Diaspora seems to be defined pretty loosely (and usually defined in a way that suits the interests of the person defining it!).

BFDCH.

southsiderosie wrote: »

From what I understood in the article, these are third generation Irish in the US. There are also plenty of British people with an Irish grandparent. Whether you think this makes them 'random' Yanks or not is up to you, but the Irish Diaspora seems to be defined pretty loosely (and usually defined in a way that suits the interests of the person defining it!).

No it doesn't make them random yanks in my view. I was pointing out the likely difference in motives between someone with a tie to this country and the random group of brits you allude to in your post.
' a group of British investors proposed swooping in to take over key committees and make major political reforms.'

Third generation Irish in the US can still hold Irish passports, that makes them Irish under our constitution AFAIK.

maninasia

Exactly, many of them are Irish passport holders. No matter what type of slight you want to apply to them they are actually Irish!
Even if they weren't Irish by the limited definition of passport holders, they see themselves as Irish Americans and are proud of their Irish heritage and want to do their bit.

They have a distinct Irish heritage just like Travellers or Irish in London or the nationalist community in the North. They are not interested in 'swooping in to take things over'. Many of these people are extremely well off indeed and do not need the small change they could earn in Ireland compared to the US. Southsiderrosie, don't do the typical defensive attitude for the sake of it.

djpbarry

maninasia wrote: »

Many of these people are extremely well off indeed and do not need the small change they could earn in Ireland compared to the US.

Oh dear, you seem to be suffering from a rather severe case of Irish inferiority complex.

maninasia wrote: »

Southsiderrosie, don't do the typical defensive attitude for the sake of it.

Her point is a valid one. Tom McEnerny is Californian born and bred – he’s about as Irish as The Rockies. Were he British and he “offered” to sit on Irish state boards to sort things out (you don’t think that smacks of incredible arrogance?), he’d be told to take a run and jump and mind his own business.

Of course the real irony here is that there may well be very successful businessmen sitting on state boards in Ireland already (there undoubtedly are, in fact), but they’re being dismissed as incompetent government cronies.

Sleepy

This is a country that appointed Celia Larkin to state boards. I don't think we can look down our nose at an offer of help from business people who've succeeded at more than spreading their legs for corrupt politicians tbh.

djpbarry

Sleepy wrote: »

This is a country that appointed Celia Larkin to state boards.

And the US is a country that elected George W. Bush as president.

Check. Mate.

Sleepy

Bush v Ahern?

At least Bush was university educated.

djpbarry

Sleepy wrote: »

At least Bush was university educated.

So what? Plenty of idiots have university degrees.

Sleepy

True. However it takes a special kind of idiot to claim a couple of weekend seminars held in UCD and the LSE mean they've "studied" there. :rolleyes:

Anyway, we're getting way off topic here. Our past record at appointing directors is appalling: we've a former Taoiseach who's on the record stating that he didn't give people jobs on state boards because they paid him but because they were his friends. Larkin quite literally fu[colour=black]cked[/colour] her way onto state boards.

We're in no position to laugh at the Americans imho and keeping in mind that a country of 313 million people is going to have a hell of a lot more great minds than a country of just over 4.5m maybe some of them are worth listening to.

djpbarry

Sleepy wrote: »

We're in no position to laugh at the Americans...

I’m not suggesting that we are. What I am questioning is the idea that just because someone has been successful in the US they should be entitled to see themselves worthy of appointment to a state board in another country. That, to me, is incredibly arrogant.

Sleepy wrote: »

...keeping in mind that a country of 313 million people is going to have a hell of a lot more great minds than a country of just over 4.5m maybe some of them are worth listening to.

Sure, let’s listen to them – I’m not suggesting that their ideas should be dismissed out of hand. I’m just dismissing the idea that they should be shoo-ins for state appointments.

BFDCH.

djpbarry wrote: »

Oh dear, you seem to be suffering from a rather severe case of Irish inferiority complex.
Her point is a valid one. Tom McEnerny is Californian born and bred – he’s about as Irish as The Rockies. Were he British and he “offered” to sit on Irish state boards to sort things out (you don’t think that smacks of incredible arrogance?), he’d be told to take a run and jump and mind his own business.

Of course the real irony here is that there may well be very successful businessmen sitting on state boards in Ireland already (there undoubtedly are, in fact), but they’re being dismissed as incompetent government cronies.

You've a definition of what makes someone Irish? His name suggests he has a link to this country. His words suggest that he cares about the country:
'Many of us in the Irish diaspora value the land of our grandparents and mourn her recent difficulties.'

Were he British( and with no links to Ireland or motive to help) and asked to sit on the board and tell us how to do things then of course we would be suspicious and likely to reject his offer of help- same as we would if he were from any other country.
He and others like him have offered assistance : 'Dozens more have agreed to serve at no pay, no perks. From Microsoft to Disney, they are adept at business plans and accountability. They know that inward investment is wonderful, but the real business of creating companies and jobs indigenous to Ireland is key: measure success, not just glossy plans.'


How many of our indigenous Irish business men and women serve on these boards( that are doing a wonderful job presently) with no pay or perks?

We need all the help we can get at the moment and if it's free then all the better. The Diaspora helped us gain independence (look at the fenian movement) and helped the Irish in the North more than a lot of the Irish down here since we gained our independence, it's time we started showing the Diaspora a bit more respect.

djpbarry

BFDCH. wrote: »

You've a definition of what makes someone Irish?

I don’t really care what the guy’s nationality is. It’s a side issue as far as I’m concerned.

BFDCH. wrote: »

Were he British( and with no links to Ireland or motive to help) and asked to sit on the board and tell us how to do things then of course we would be suspicious and likely to reject his offer of help- same as we would if he were from any other country.

Were he British, even with Irish ancestry, he’d be told to **** right off by many of the posters on this forum.

BFDCH. wrote: »

We need all the help we can get at the moment and if it's free then all the better.

Fair enough. I’m a member of the Irish diaspora. You may appoint me to an unpaid position on an Irish state board at your leisure.

Sleepy

djpbarry wrote: »

Fair enough. I’m a member of the Irish diaspora. You may appoint me to an unpaid position on an Irish state board at your leisure.

While I'm sure you're at least as qualified as some of the past appointees, I'd still like to see some form of rigorous selection used. Perhaps a formal interview with a Dail Committee? In the interests of both transparency and a individual's right tor privacy I'd see some sort of compromise of it being held in private with the transcript only made public on the appointment of the interviewee.

southsiderosie

maninasia wrote: »

Exactly, many of them are Irish passport holders. No matter what type of slight you want to apply to them they are actually Irish!
Even if they weren't Irish by the limited definition of passport holders, they see themselves as Irish Americans and are proud of their Irish heritage and want to do their bit.

They have a distinct Irish heritage just like Travellers or Irish in London or the nationalist community in the North. They are not interested in 'swooping in to take things over'. Many of these people are extremely well off indeed and do not need the small change they could earn in Ireland compared to the US. Southsiderrosie, don't do the typical defensive attitude for the sake of it.

Which typical defensive attitude? I'm an American.

If these guys have all the answers, then how about they fix some of the problems in their home state before worrying about Ireland? California is a disaster. Let them show they can fix their own house before they worry about anyone else's.

BFDCH.

djpbarry wrote: »

I don’t really care what the guy’s nationality is. It’s a side issue as far as I’m concerned.
Were he British, even with Irish ancestry, he’d be told to **** right off by many of the posters on this forum.
Fair enough. I’m a member of the Irish diaspora. You may appoint me to an unpaid position on an Irish state board at your leisure.

I don't get this British thing, why is that relevent? If posters on here would say that let them come and say it. If you think that being born in Britain but of Irish stock is a problem then say so. To me that link, the proven ability and desire to assist for free shows that they are motivated by something beyond making a quick buck or showing up the natives as clowns.

On your last point have you had a hand in running very successful companies? if not, no dice.

djpbarry

BFDCH. wrote: »

To me that link, the proven ability and desire to assist for free shows that they are motivated by something beyond making a quick buck...

Does it? So, Declan Ganley’s interest in Irish politics doesn’t have anything at all to do with his business interests?

BFDCH. wrote: »

On your last point have you had a hand in running very successful companies?

Is that the only criteria that should be met? Because if it is, then Ireland need look no further than this lot:
http://www.independent.ie/business/rich-list/irelands-rich-list-110-2116314.html

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

djpbarry

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Denis O’Brien and Ben Dunne, for example, seemed to be fairly welcome. As was/is Seán Gallagher, apparently.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

To be fair, I’m sure Americans are only too familiar with the concepts of nepotism and cronyism.

BFDCH.

djpbarry wrote: »

Does it? So, Declan Ganley’s interest in Irish politics doesn’t have anything at all to do with his business interests?
Is that the only criteria that should be met? Because if it is, then Ireland need look no further than this lot:
http://www.independent.ie/business/rich-list/irelands-rich-list-110-2116314.html

Have they offered to help?

djpbarry

BFDCH. wrote: »

Have they offered to help?

Well, Ganley offered to "help", didn't he? So did Sean Gallagher.

BFDCH.

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, Ganley offered to "help", didn't he? So did Sean Gallagher.

they're not on your list

Welease

Isn't the issue that we invited these people across to Farmleigh to help?.. They came (at their own expense). The government claimed it was a resounding success, and their experience and input was vital to Ireland's recovery...

Then when they offer their experience.. we ignore them..

As I understand it, that is what the writer was complaining about, and I tend to agree with him.If we had no intention of using their help, then why bother with the whole exercise?

maninasia

southsiderosie wrote: »

Which typical defensive attitude? I'm an American.

If these guys have all the answers, then how about they fix some of the problems in their home state before worrying about Ireland? California is a disaster. Let them show they can fix their own house before they worry about anyone else's.

Again why the attitude? They have huge pull in American multinational investment decisions, what's there to lose from getting them involved with Ireland more?
What's this got to do with California?

It doesn't make sense to not at least try getting some of them on board.

Djbarry- you are skipping all over the place in your arguments, questioning their irishness , then claiming you dont care, you may live overseas but you brought your parochialism with you.

djpbarry

maninasia wrote: »

Djbarry- you are skipping all over the place in your arguments, questioning their irishness , then claiming you dont care...

First of all, the "what if they were British" question was asked by southsiderosie, not me, but I agree with her point. I don't care what nationality they are, but I find the "oh, but they're big American multinational types - they'll fix everything" attitude ever so slightly amusing.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Reekwind

I hate this attitude that assumes that the problem is a lack of intelligence at the top; ie, something that can be rectified by importing a few emigres. It both underestimates the scale of our problems and feeds into this fawning cult of the individual businessman

Here's the thing: Ireland's problem are structural in nature and can only be solved by a complete reform of the system. That is something that has to come from below, not by flying in a few highly paid suits to network in some stately house. That is no silver bullet. And even if there was I wouldn't trust a US businessman with the gun lest he outsource the HSE to China

maninasia

djpbarry wrote: »

First of all, the "what if they were British" question was asked by southsiderosie, not me, but I agree with her point. I don't care what nationality they are, but I find the "oh, but they're big American multinational types - they'll fix everything" attitude ever so slightly amusing.

I doubt very much they think that. I doubt they are going to love much sleep over this actually. It is the process of engaging people that are involved with investment that is the important thing here. I think the reaction to an offer of making some substantial input is amusing though.
But you'll take 100 billion euro bailouts from the EU without even a protest.

southsiderosie

maninasia wrote: »

Again why the attitude? They have huge pull in American multinational investment decisions, what's there to lose from getting them involved with Ireland more?
What's this got to do with California?

It doesn't make sense to not at least try getting some of them on board

Please explain how Silicon Valley businessmen are going to have any sway in the kinds of constitutional reforms that they have proposed for Ireland. These are the same reforms that have been proposed by Irish people who have a much clearer understanding of the country's politics than the author of this op-ed, and they have been roundly ignored. Speaking of ignored, the Irish government has not responded to any of the educational reform proposals from the Irish US Chamber of Commerce, despite the COC's role in facilitating US investment in Ireland. So I think this whole thing is nonsensical.

As for California, if this business group is interested in trying to fix a sclerotic political system and terrifying public finances, they don't have to look any further than their home state.

Finally, the very existence of such a large Irish diaspora is in part to the preferences of Ireland's politicians - better to export the restive than have them stay and force reform on the system. The Irish political elite have never had an interested in what the diaspora had to say unless it involved steering money to the island, or favorable political and economic treaties from Washington.

djpbarry

maninasia wrote: »

I think the reaction to an offer of making some substantial input is amusing though.

What "substantial input" are you referring to? What are the Californians going to tell Ireland that Ireland doesn't know already?