Re: Uprated brakes

silenoz

Hi, I am looking at changing out all brake discs on a Toyota Celica to performance brake discs (drilled and grooved). Would I have to notify my insurance company to say that I have these on the car? ie. Does this constitute an uprated braking system?

MetzgerMeister

You're better off to ask them beforehand and budget for it. I can't see it making a difference as they are more a safety benefit than performance benefit. If you want better braking, better tyres are the first place to start rather than discs.

Drilled brake discs have a habit of cracking between the holes so be aware of that. It doesn't always happen but it's not unheard of.

Mr.David

Don't bother with drilled or grooved it will make no difference. The reason they exist is in that, in theory, it allows the air that the pad traps against the disc a place to escape which results in better instantaneous contact between pad and disc.

In reality, the gain is offset by the reduction in surface area (and hence thermal capacity). Add to this the near guaranteed noise issues with squeal and graunch and it really isn't worth it.

Don't bother unless its going to be a track car. Uprate your hoses, brake fluid and pads. You could uprate the calipers too if you could fit opposed piston ones.

mathepac

Mr.David wrote: »

...
Don't bother unless its going to be a track car. Uprate your hoses, brake fluid and pads. You could uprate the calipers too if you could fit opposed piston ones.

+1 Cars on the road with uprated brakes are more likely to 'surprise' dozy tail-gaters and get hit from behind.

As well as the measures stated above, have a look at fitting larger diameter discs (forget about drilled & grooved) with larger, opposed calipers & pads. The bigger the friction area for the pads to work on, the shorter the stopping distance.

Veloce

I'm not sure does changing the discs themselves constitutes 'uprated brakes'. I would have thought the changing the brake mechanism itself would be an uprate- i.e. changing from standard 1 pot brakes to 4 pot calipers. But changing to a bigger disc size could be an uprate.

As for better braking performance, I would look at changing the pads and keep standard discs in place if not too worn. I have heard mixed reviews on Grooved / Drilled discs for normal everyday driving. Its not really worth the extra expense. Take a look reviews for Ferodo DS2500 pads- these would make a huge difference.

However if you are after the aesthetics over performance then the grooved / drilled discs should do the job nicely .

dgt

Talking as someone who uprated their brakes, golden rule is don't go OTT with it! Originally I wanted to put on 305mm discs from a Coupe with 4 pot Brembos from s Mercedes on my old Bravo 1.2, looking back a very silly idea

I decided to swap the lines for my own copper lines, new hoses where needed. Did a rear disc conversion and put vented discs with bigger pads at the front. Brakes are powerful enough for the car now and I didn't spend too much either, biggest cost was discs and pads

Mr.David

Lots of good advice here.

Remember, the limiting factor will probably be the friction generated between the tyre and road surface. Once your brakes are powerful enough to cause slippage between the two/ABS to kick in, and will resist fade then uprating them further will make no difference (as the extra capacity will never be used, your tyre will loose traction first).

Tbh, the easy part is making brakes that stop the car quickly. Even on high performance cars. The difficult part, and the vast majority of the development work goes into pedal feel (crucial for confidence and perception) and refinement (a bloody nightmare!).

db330

like said above they only good for aesthetic reason in most cases. If your discs are worn and they need replacing I'd say go for it, they can be got for cheap on ebay.

I had to replace mine last year so got 2 drilled and grooved front discs for €70 for a pajero. Made now difference but do sound good, when breaking they make a Whooing sound (good not bad or load can only hear on super smooth roads or when breaking superhard) I changed the pads and fluid a weeks back and this made a much bigger difference.

They do look good though

ianobrien

OP, don't bother with the grooved/drilled discs. Spend the extra cost on proper uprated pads and a fluid change. Anyway, I've read that grooved discs have greater pad wear as they cut off a small bit of pad every time they go around so as to get a "clean" pad surface. (I'm open to correction on that)

I've used Ferodo DS2500 pads in place of standard Ferodo and they were so much better than "standard" pads.

gollywog

ianobrien wrote: »

OP, don't bother with the grooved/drilled discs. Spend the extra cost on proper uprated pads and a fluid change. Anyway, I've read that grooved discs have greater pad wear as they cut off a small bit of pad every time they go around so as to get a "clean" pad surface. (I'm open to correction on that)

I've used Ferodo DS2500 pads in place of standard Ferodo and they were so much better than "standard" pads.

Howdy,
Where can you buy those ferodo pads? And how much are they?? sound very good. Cheers!

ianobrien

gollywog wrote: »

Howdy,
Where can you buy those ferodo pads? And how much are they?? sound very good. Cheers!

I wanted them for a Ford, so I ordered them from Burton Power, along with other goodies. I imagine that any good motor factor can order them. Beware that they are not made for every car model so you might or be able to get them.

gollywog

ianobrien wrote: »

gollywog wrote: »

Howdy,
Where can you buy those ferodo pads? And how much are they?? sound very good. Cheers!

I wanted them for a Ford, so I ordered them from Burton Power, along with other goodies. I imagine that any good motor factor can order them. Beware that they are not made for every car model so you might or be able to get them.

Cheers man,
How much were they if you don't mind me asking??
Are they suitable for everyday use ya?

ianobrien

gollywog wrote: »

Cheers man,
How much were they if you don't mind me asking??
Are they suitable for everyday use ya?

I can't remember the price as I ordered them with a load of other bits. I used them in a vintage car and they were fine for everyday spirited driving. The car was also used for classic rallies and retro trials so the brakes got a hammering, hence the pads.

If you drive the car normally, I'd be looking at ordinary pads and a change of fluid. If you've actually "ran out" of brakes (brake fade, brake pad breakdown etc) then look at changing to a higher temp friction material. If not, leave it OEM material.

Henry Ford III

I did a pretty simple brake upgrade on the MkII Escort a few years ago.

New discs (standard solid type), exchange callipers, uprated "fast road" pads, new solid lines, new hydraulic cylinders for the rear wheels, fresh fluid, and replacement braided flexible hoses.

The tyres were pretty new, but the brakes felt and performed completely differently.

Firstly the pedal was very firm, and remained that way even with track use. Down to the braided hoses i think. The feel of the brakes from cold was poor, you had to press them hard - but after 3 of 4 gentle applications it improved, as a bit of heat got into the pads.

All in it was a good upgrade, and didn't have any effect on the insurance.

Mr.David

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Down to the braided hoses i think. The feel of the brakes from cold was poor, you had to press them hard - but after 3 of 4 gentle applications it improved, as a bit of heat got into the pads.

+1. Upgrading the hoses will make a big difference. If you think about it, as you press the pedal you are putting the fluid under high pressure in order to push the pad firmly against the disc. The stronger the hose, the less expansion under pressure (the expansion will translate to the pedal as a mushy feeling) giving a firmer more direct feel.

Interesting about the feel being poor from cold. Same is true of quite a lot of high performance braking systems. If you look at the friction curves for brake pads (Temp on X axis, friction coeff on Y) its geared very differently for performance and standard road pads.

The standard pads will generate max friction at lower temps and drop off at higher temp. The more high performance pads will actually have a lower friction coeff at low temps, but it increases with temperature to a peak that should correspond to what will be experienced under spirited driving for that driver/situation.

If you ever drive anything with carbon ceramic brakes, they really are piss poor at low temps. Awful. And the pedal feel is crap too. But they are good on a track and they are very 'marketable' and fashionable.