Whats the employment market like for graduate maths/physics teaching?

The Troll Hunter

Hi All.

I really need your Help. I applied to do a HDip (PGDE) in December and I got notice that I got my course there a couple of weeks ago. When I applied I was unemployed but I have been working 3 day weeks since the new year. So now I am not sure what to do. Is there a lot of employment opportunities for maths/physics teaching in Ireland?

I have had look for teaching jobs on the web and there doesn't seam to be lot out there in Ireland. Is there employment embargo on recruiting teachers?

Thanks in advanced for all your help

2011abc

Knowing what youre working at three days a week and what pay's like would help to give advice but alas , hand on heart as a teacher in similar subject areas Id say dont bother ...Employment prospects beyond grim for at least next few years , kids arent getting any easier to work with ,parents becoming a complete nightmare -it might only be 1-5% of them but thats more than enough to make your life hell -especially when combined with ...unsupportive (if not out and out vindictive ) principals and BOMs...so , eh , Id be leaning strongly towards 'Dont bother' ,unless your 3 days a week is near minimum wage .
Of course there is a certain element of job satisfaction and the holidays but both are shrinking at an alarming rate .Basically at the moment we are being made to BEG to keep the Croke Park Agreement whereby we were made to do about an hours extra work a week for free which is utterly unproductive and merely serves to 'punish those teachers with there long holidays '.

The Troll Hunter

2011abc wrote: »

Knowing what youre working at three days a week and what pay's like would help to give advice but alas , hand on heart as a teacher in similar subject areas Id say dont bother ...Employment prospects beyond grim for at least next few years , kids arent getting any easier to work with ,parents becoming a complete nightmare -it might only be 1-5% of them but thats more than enough to make your life hell -especially when combined with ...unsupportive (if not out and out vindictive ) principals and BOMs...so , eh , Id be leaning strongly towards 'Dont bother' ,unless your 3 days a week is near minimum wage .
Of course there is a certain element of job satisfaction and the holidays but both are shrinking at an alarming rate .Basically at the moment we are being made to BEG to keep the Croke Park Agreement whereby we were made to do about an hours extra work a week for free which is utterly unproductive and merely serves to 'punish those teachers with there long holidays '.

Thanks for the reply. I currently work as a civil engineer and I earn above the minimum wage though nowhere what I use to earn before the recession. I haven't really consider money side of things as I am more interested in the job availability and job security of teaching Maths/Physics.

byhookorbycrook

The Troll Hunter wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I currently work as a civil engineer and I earn above the minimum wage though nowhere what I use to earn before the recession. I haven't really consider money side of things as I am more interested in the job availability and job security of teaching Maths/Physics.

There is no job security unless you get a permanent job and I know of many with those subjects who aren't even getting regular subbing over the last 5 years.I think many people believe the media driven hype about all the money teachers make, how there is no such thing as an unemployed teacher etc.Things are especially hard in the secondary sector as you are limited by subject choice.

The Troll Hunter

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

There is no job security unless you get a permanent job and I know of many with those subjects who aren't even getting regular subbing over the last 5 years.I think many people believe the media driven hype about all the money teachers make, how there is no such thing as an unemployed teacher etc.Things are especially hard in the secondary sector as you are limited by subject choice.

Thanks for your reply. I totally agree with you in relation to teachers salaries I personally think its low when you consider how stressful the job is thinking back when I was in school. You hear in some sections of the media and especially my mum that there are loads of teaching jobs in maths and science. I don't think this is the case, am I right?

kob29

I definitely wouldn't recommend teaching now for job security- there is zilch and no prospects. Just more and more work and hassle for less money. If you are very intent on doing it I'd say maybe do Hibernia, where you could keep working your three days per week. But it is very expensive also.

byhookorbycrook

The Troll Hunter wrote: »

. You hear in some sections of the media and especially my mum that there are loads of teaching jobs in maths and science. I don't think this is the case, am I right?

You're right, media had a big noise story about people not qualified to teach maths that made it sound like every school in the country needed maths teachers- not true. With the new and promised cutbacks, subject choices will be narrowed even further, so even less jobs for NQTs .

The Troll Hunter

kob29 wrote: »

I definitely wouldn't recommend teaching now for job security- there is zilch and no prospects. Just more and more work and hassle for less money. If you are very intent on doing it I'd say maybe do Hibernia, where you could keep working your three days per week. But it is very expensive also.

Thanks for that.

whiteandlight

There are few to no jobs in this profession. There are hundreds of unemployed teachers in the system ahead of you already. Personally I have a first in my degree (maths/music) and a first in my PGDE,an A in teaching practise, two years full time experience, project maths local facilitator and last summer I got one interview! Luckily I got the job but it is well off full time hours.

There are no jobs out there, for maths or anything else. The PT ratio keeps rising, wages are slashed for new entrants and you would face 7 years on average before any possibility of permanency and this is after 6k in fees for the qualification.

Remember that even if the headline figure is (I think) 27k per year for new teachers, you would probably at best be on 3/4s salary ~20k and would be unlikely to get paid for the summer for the first couple of years.

carolzoo

and to add to the last post if you do eventually get permanent i.e. a cid after 7 or 8 years it will definitely not be for full hours so very difficult to earn a full salary

The Troll Hunter

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

You're right, media had a big noise story about people not qualified to teach maths that made it sound like every school in the country needed maths teachers- not true. With the new and promised cutbacks, subject choices will be narrowed even further, so even less jobs for NQTs .

As I thought. Must show this thread to my mum as she has been pushing me to go teaching and give up on my current career which in fairness as been tough going in last few years and there has been very few opportunities and probably be like that for a few more years yet. Unfortunately she as swallowed all the spin on the maths teachers shortage. But she is only looking out for me.:)

Kinshea

Hi All,

Troll hunter, thanks for starting this Thread. I'm in a very similar position and thought that Teaching Maths and Physics was a winner. Can I ask all those who went through the HDip / PGDE what they worked at to provide an income while being a student teacher?

Thanks.

Melanoma

I have been teaching for 7 years. Last year I got a contract teaching maths and the students were very difficult in the senior cycle. They had very little basics form the Junior Cert. I was blamed for the fact that they were not able to keep up with the maths at Leaving Cert Level ordinary. You have to go fairly fast to get the course completed.

Next year they plan to replace me with a business/maths combination due to cut backs. This puts me again at the starting position and I have to look for work. I am considering leaving teaching and returning to Electronic Engineering/ Programming. My advice is avoid teaching like the plague.

You could be lucky, but this is not happening too often.

By the way I am qualified in Physics and Maths. There is very little outside of Dublin. Last year I got about 5 interviews at the end of the summer though I had accepted the contract already. I attended three interviews and they are relentless in questioning. So much harder than private interviews.

I used to like teaching but this last job has put me of it a lot.

Fizzical

All of the above is true. And physics is one of the subjects being dropped around the country due to cutbacks.

On the other hand, many teachers have retired this year and more will be retiring soon. Work (not positions) will be available, but it's hard to know what the pay and conditions will be when all the rumpus settles down.

Also physics and honours maths teachers are not as easy to come across as those of other subjects. At least that's what I was told when unqualified people were hired to replace me....

Melanoma

I managed to get another job on 10 hours per week 3 hours drive from my house. I am renting and paying a Mortgage and driving home is expensive. The school gave me 4 hours of concessionary hours too. Looks like though there will be no hours for Physics and Maths as only 6 students want to do it and there is no money to run smaller class sizes. Therefore I'll be unemployed again. Substitutional hours and Supervision is being expanded and unpaid so no work will come up there. Overall I'd say next year I might get offered 6 hours. If you were a new teacher starting that would yield about 600 euro a month and you would be working 5 days a week.

Its pretty useless. That said this year I got to teach honours and the school really like me and the students appreciate the work I do (I do a lot of extra classes cause they had no teacher for a while last year).

Its great to not be in the total kip I was in last year.

Advice is the same though don't go into teaching unless you don't mind having a 1 in 5 chance of working in Ireland and that's if you ignore the pull about half of people that hired have.

Wicklowleaid

Hi troll hunter and kinshea. I am a Physics teacher and I would give you one piece of advice which may be of help. I did Science Education in DCU and was informed throughout I would be a qualified maths,physics,chemistry teacher at the end. However when it came to getting recognised with the teaching council the physics and chemistry were fine but the maths no. I would give the teaching council a phone call inform them about the degree you have and see what they will recogniseyou to teach! Better to be safe than sorry! Cheers and good luck with it

Melanoma

Wicklowleaid wrote: »

Hi troll hunter and kinshea. I am a Physics teacher and I would give you one piece of advice which may be of help. I did Science Education in DCU and was informed throughout I would be a qualified maths,physics,chemistry teacher at the end. However when it came to getting recognised with the teaching council the physics and chemistry were fine but the maths no. I would give the teaching council a phone call inform them about the degree you have and see what they will recogniseyou to teach! Better to be safe than sorry! Cheers and good luck with it

The teaching council are a quango with the biggest expenses budget of all quangos. To be a member of the board you need to be politically connected. These people get other government jobs too.

They have no idea of math and teaching it.


Sorry to hear they have messed you around. There are teaching degrees that have two subjects over 4 years but as they do a lot of teaching theory and the theory of teaching maths along with the other subject which might not be maths based. They really are not able to do maths for leaving cert ordinary but the universities have power cause they are teaching colleges. You would at least be able to teach to junior cert.

Your story is all too common with greedy universities not caring if their graduates get work. After all very few ever do.

whiteandlight

While I tend to agree with you on the teaching council please don't post old myths. There is no such thing as being qualified to teach to junior cert level maths. You are either qualified to teach maths or you aren't. While you may end up taking a group temporarily most principals will not (and should not) hire an unqualified teacher to teach maths.


I will say that I do agree that the teaching council regulations on qualifications need to be addressed but until such time as they change you cannot qualify to teach junior cert maths

Wicklowleaid

Yes I agree that the recognition of qualifications process is bizarre. And you are right music mental there is no facility to recognise to junior cycle but melanoma there should be, I think we all agree on that. On a personal level thankfully it makes no odds Im now 22 hours CID in a school Im very happy in but a friend has been messed around twice over the maths recognition scenario. I hope for the two individuals on this post enquiring that they give the teaching council a call anyway, who knows. As I say better to be safe than sorry.

PingO_O

Hey guys just thought I'd post here as I saw maths and physics in the thread title, and I'm really sorry to hear how crap things are for you.

Would you really advise someone not to bother applying for the PDE or to pursue this career?

Would I or anyone else be better off doing a postgrad in something else?

Melanoma

PingO_O wrote: »

Hey guys just thought I'd post here as I saw maths and physics in the thread title, and I'm really sorry to hear how crap things are for you.

Would you really advise someone not to bother applying for the PDE or to pursue this career?

Would I or anyone else be better off doing a postgrad in something else?

I think it depends on a number of factors. Do you care where in the country you end up? Would you be willing to move around for a few years taking low paid part time positions or maternity positions. Would you mind doing several interviews were you know the position is gone before 30 seconds in despite having travelled 3 hours to get there. Would you mind being say 3 years in a school and then being kicked out because another permanent teacher is relocated to your school. You receive no redundancy (though you have the summer holidays you dare never take one in case an interview comes up).

Now having said that its not everyone's experience at all. The vast majority of people with a H.Dip. never get any work at all.

Then there are some maybe 20% who are lucky and get work in their first year and never look back, have reasonable hours that build into a proper job.

Just be aware that the teacher training colleges get your money regardless of your future earnings.

I'd say this if it was a bit better like you had a fair chance then sure its worth a go and if it does not work out you can always try for something else but there are people who are in the system for years and dont get anything. One guy I talked to last year at an interview had worked in England come home and had only weeks of work since over 3 years. He seemed in OK form though.

Another teacher who teaches art is 8 years out and is still mostly doing subbing work.

So what's the conclusion.

Go into teaching if you dont mind working abroad. If you want to get work in Ireland hope you get some pull while working on your H.Dip. or by doing subbing.

I hope some people come in and counter this argument giving their opinions too but my advice is stay clear of something that can seriously make you poor.