Pius XI - Fatima - The 2nd Secret

qrrgprgua

Given that the 2nd Secret of Fatima is very specific naming the Pope, since it was not Public knowledge in 1922 when Achille Ratti took the Papal Name Pius XI was it a Failure if the Church not to make Public the Message our lady gave to the Children?


«The war is going to end, but if men do not cease offending God... If My requests are not heeded, Russia will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions... Another worse one will begin in the reign of Pius XI»

Ronnie Binge

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Given that the 2nd Secret of Fatima is very specific naming the Pope, since it was not Public knowledge in 1922 when Achille Ratti took the Papal Name Pius XI was it a Failure if the Church not to make Public the Message our lady gave to the Children?


«The war is going to end, but if men do not cease offending God... If My requests are not heeded, Russia will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions... Another worse one will begin in the reign of Pius XI»

I'd say Fatima and the so-called messages were a load of old spoof myself, and I took Fatima seriously for years. Note that personal revelation is not binding on any Catholic.

Point: Personal revelation is non binding, per the Church. Fatima insisted on binding actions, the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, otherwise God would rain thunderbolts on the world. Therefore Fatima contradicted itself.

Run_to_da_hills

The following passage would describe what the Bible would say about these places.

"Do not have anything to do with godless myths and fables of old women. Instead, train yourself to be godly". 1 Timothy 4:7

gimmebroadband

... or the following passage would describe what the Bible had to say about it!

'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on everyone. Your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. (Acts 2:17)

LordSutch

Pius, Fatima, the 2nd Secret . . .

What secret? Can somebody please explain (in a nutshell) to a non RC like myself what this is all about.

Many thanks.

gimmebroadband

LordSutch wrote: »

Pius, Fatima, the 2nd Secret . . .

What secret? Can somebody please explain (in a nutshell) to a non RC like myself what this is all about.

Many thanks.

Hope the following link is of some help!

http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2010/03/three-secrets-of-fatima-explained.html

Run_to_da_hills

LordSutch wrote: »

Pius, Fatima, the 2nd Secret . . .

What secret? Can somebody please explain (in a nutshell) to a non RC like myself what this is all about.

Many thanks.

Fatima in a nutshell from an EX Catholic.

Our Lady of Fatima is a hoax perpetrated by the Catholic Church. It is nothing but blatant superstitious idolatry. They claim that a supernatural event occurred in 1917 in which the “Blessed Virgin Mary” appeared repeatedly to 3 children in Fatima, Portugal.

Supposedly, the Virgin Mary gave a message to the 3 children. The Message of Fatima consists of an alleged number of precise predictions, requests, warnings and promises concerning the Catholic faith and the world, which were conveyed by the Blessed Virgin Mary to 3 shepherd children Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco in a series of ghostly apparitions at Fatima, Portugal from May to October 1917. An “apparition” means “the unexpected or unusual appearance of a ghostly figure.”

It's a scam, a falsehood, a dirty lie of the Devil, unscriptural in every way and there is absolutly no mytery to it as it is NOT mentioned at all in the Bible.

1st Timothy 4:1 Specifically warns us about such events: "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of devile.

Gregor Samsa

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Given that the 2nd Secret of Fatima is very specific naming the Pope, since it was not Public knowledge in 1922 when Achille Ratti took the Papal Name Pius XI was it a Failure if the Church not to make Public the Message our lady gave to the Children?

«The war is going to end, but if men do not cease offending God... If My requests are not heeded, Russia will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions... Another worse one will begin in the reign of Pius XI»

I thought that the second secret wasn't revealed by Lúcia until 1941 - two years after the outbreak of WWII. Assuming she did actually receive the prophesy in 1917 as claimed, surely the failure to reveal it before 1922 lies with Lúcia, and not the Church?

gimmebroadband

RTDH, wind your neck in! Next you'll be saying that the CC staged the miracle of the sun, and WWII, to make the prohecy come true. Anyone can take a biblical verse out of context to serve one's purpose. I could use this one: "There appeared in the Heaven's a Woman Clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of 12 stars."

Here are the facts, briefly recounted by a journalist that nobody could suspect of impartiality in this affair, and with reason! The man in question is Avelino de Almeida, Editor in Chief of O Seculo, the great “liberal”, anticlerical and Masonic daily of Lisbon.

http://www.catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima1/ch1-10.htm

Run_to_da_hills

gimmebroadband wrote: »

RTDH, wind your neck in! Next you'll be saying that the CC staged the miracle of the sun, and WWII, to make the prohecy come true. Anyone can take a biblical verse out of context to serve one's purpose. I could use this one: "There appeared in the Heaven's a Woman Clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of 12 stars."




http://www.catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima1/ch1-10.htm

St Peter's Cathedral in the Vatican which has the Egyptian sun god obelisk on display in its front courtyard along with Ratzinger past history as a Hitler Youth member says enough.

Benny_Cake

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

St Peter's Cathedral in the Vatican which has the Egyptian sun god obelisk on display in its front courtyard along with Ratzinger past history as a Hitler Youth member says enough.

I don't believe anyone of the Fatima stuff for a second (Catholics are free to make up their own mind on it by the way), but what does the obelisk have to do with it?! Should it be broken up and used for someone's patio?

gimmebroadband

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I don't believe anyone of the Fatima stuff for a second (Catholics are free to make up their own mind on it by the way), but what does the obelisk have to do with it?! Should it be broken up and used for someone's patio?

You re right BC, even though the CC say's it's worthy of belief, it compels no-one to believe it!

I do!

As for RTDH sun god obilisk:

The Obelisk from Egypt was brought to Rome by Emperor Caligula in 37 AD. It originally stood in his circus on a spot to the south of the basilica, close to the present Sacristy.

Sixtus V had Domenico Fontana move it in 1586 to the center of St. Peter's Square

It is also a sun dial, its shadows mark noon over the signs of the zodiac in the white marble disks in the paving of the square. The obelisk rests upon four couchant lions, each with two bodies whose tails intertwine.

http://saintpetersbasilica.org/Exterior/Obelisk/Obelisk.htm

Run_to_da_hills

gimmebroadband wrote: »

You re right BC, even though the CC say's it's worthy of belief, it compels no-one to believe it!

Dose that statement in itself not cast an element of doubt in the churches teachings?.

Benny_Cake

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Dose that statement in itself not cast an element of doubt in the churches teachings?.

Not necessarily - I'd go with St. Augustine when he said "In essentials, unity, in non-essentials, liberty, in all things, love". Marian apparitions are not an essential belief of the Catholic faith.

Run_to_da_hills

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Not necessarily - I'd go with St. Augustine when he said "In essentials, unity, in non-essentials, liberty, in all things, love". Marian apparitions are not an essential belief of the Catholic faith.

Mary is in the grave awaiting the arrival of her savior Jesus Christ as are the rest of the faithful that believe in him, so to even assume that she could make an appearance to anyone is nothing but daemonic and contary to the teachings of Deuteronomy. The Church should discourage this sort of nonsense instead of profiting from it.

qrrgprgua

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Fatima in a nutshell from an EX Catholic.

Our Lady of Fatima is a hoax perpetrated by the Catholic Church. It is nothing but blatant superstitious idolatry.

I am not one for running behind every reported vision and moving statue... To be a catholic you don't have to believe in Fatima.

But Fatima was not a hoax the Catholic Church invented.. Far from it, it was a phenomenon that they tried to hide at the start.

LordSutch

Many thanks to those who have explained the Fatima secrets to a non RC like me. As a Christian I do find it all a bit "different" - three children - three secrets - an apparition of the Virgin Mary - The Pope - Dan Brown? its all so alien to the Christian teachings handed down to me as a non RC. However if thats what Roman Catholics believe then thats that, that is part of their belief and I respect that, even if I don't agree with any of it.

Run_to_da_hills

qrrgprgua wrote: »

I am not one for running behind every reported vision and moving statue... To be a catholic you don't have to believe in Fatima.

But Fatima was not a hoax the Catholic Church invented.. Far from it, it was a phenomenon that they tried to hide at the start.

Why didn't the church put a lid on it instead of feeding out of it as I pointed out in my last post.

Ken bryan

www.fatima.org/essentials/message/tspart2.asp

The third Part of the message Fatima for told the Crisis in the church which is now unfolding .

Run_to_da_hills

Ken bryan wrote: »

www.fatima.org/essentials/message/tspart2.asp

The third Part of the message Fatima for told the Crisis in the church which is now unfolding .

I don't see any mention of the Irish government's decision to pull the Vatican embassy.

Benny_Cake

LordSutch wrote: »

Many thanks to those who have explained the Fatima secrets to a non RC like me. As a Christian I do find it all a bit "different" - three children - three secrets - an apparition of the Virgin Mary - The Pope - Dan Brown? its all so alien to the Christian teachings handed down to me as a non RC. However if thats what Roman Catholics believe then thats that, that is part of their belief and I respect that, even if I don't agree with any of it.

It's alien to me too, but if that's what other Catholics want to believe, let them at it I say.

qrrgprgua

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Why didn't the church put a lid on it instead of feeding out of it as I pointed out in my last post.

Because it was true. The message that came out of Fatima from the Children was in the end True.

Ronnie Binge

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Because it was true. The message that came out of Fatima from the Children was in the end True.

Given the release dates of the "secrets" I believe that they were at the very least reviewed in the lights of known facts at the date of their release. Note the "review process" stated by the Vatican that was given to the "third secret" prior to its release.

I am glad that belief in Fatima is optional for Catholics, as it appears to be me to be appalingly bad theology to suggest that Jesus was planning to unleash punishment on the world, held back only by prayers to the Virgin Mary. The vast majority of people alive in the planet in 1917 were in no position to influence the course of world events and in no wise should have been punished for anything.

gkell3

Ronnie Binge wrote: »

Given the release dates of the "secrets" I believe that they were at the very least reviewed in the lights of known facts at the date of their release. Note the "review process" stated by the Vatican that was given to the "third secret" prior to its release.

I am glad that belief in Fatima is optional for Catholics, as it appears to be me to be appalingly bad theology to suggest that Jesus was planning to unleash punishment on the world, held back only by prayers to the Virgin Mary. The vast majority of people alive in the planet in 1917 were in no position to influence the course of world events and in no wise should have been punished for anything.

Any prophesy outside the Book Of Revelation is unacceptable as the incorporation of that work within the Bible is Divinely inspired.Structurally the Book Of Revelation is connected to the last chapter of John by way of 153 and the prophesy contained there stands on its own -

http://www.usccb.org/bible/john/21

If Catholics are so casual that they can pick and choose what they decide is prophesy then they have little regard for the works before them that may look impenetrable but are really not.The Book Of Revelation is Not a historical work directed at Roman rule no matter how convenient it may be to see it that way and its doesn't rely on gematria.One facet of Revelation is its structure and the closest I have seen to any person outwardly come near the proper approach is Augustine with 153 who recognized a triangular number of 1+2+3+4...+17.

lmaopml

gkell3 wrote: »

Any prophesy outside the Book Of Revelation is unacceptable as the incorporation of that work within the Bible is Divinely inspired.Structurally the Book Of Revelation is connected to the last chapter of John by way of 153 and the prophesy contained there stands on its own -

http://www.usccb.org/bible/john/21

If Catholics are so casual that they can pick and choose what they decide is prophesy then they have little regard for the works before them that may look impenetrable but are really not.The Book Of Revelation is Not a historical work directed at Roman rule no matter how convenient it may be to see it that way and its doesn't rely on gematria.One facet of Revelation is its structure and the closest I have seen to any person outwardly come near the proper approach is Augustine with 153 who recognized a triangular number of 1+2+3+4...+17.

Augustine was Catholic gkell Catholics have been penetrating Scriptures for 2000 years - (By the by, I actually thought you were too? are you Baptist?)

Have a perusal of the Catholic Encyclopedia on Revelation, The book of Revelations, the Apocalypse etc. to get a better understanding - it's put together quite well and is very informative from a Catholic perspective

All public revelation ceased with the Apostles. Private revelations are different - they don't belong to the deposit of faith, but they always have been tested by the Church, they don't improve or complete Christ's revelation, they are not binding on any Catholic. There have been very very many private revelations throughout the ages, only very few are recognised by the Authority of the Church, insofar as they help people in a given age, but they should neither contradict, nor add to the revelation of Jesus Christ. Many other Christian Churches have members that receive personal revelation.

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good
1 Thessalonians 5:19–21

gkell3

lmaopml wrote: »

Augustine was Catholic gkell Catholics have been penetrating Scriptures for 2000 years - (By the by, I actually thought you were too? are you Baptist?)

Have a perusal of the Catholic Encyclopedia on Revelation, The book of Revelations, the Apocalypse etc. to get a better understanding - it's put together quite well and is very informative from a Catholic perspective

All public revelation ceased with the Apostles. Private revelations are different - they don't belong to the deposit of faith, but they always have been tested by the Church, they don't improve or complete Christ's revelation, they are not binding on any Catholic. There have been very very many private revelations throughout the ages, only very few are recognised by the Authority of the Church, insofar as they help people in a given age, but they should neither contradict, nor add to the revelation of Jesus Christ. Many other Christian Churches have members that receive personal revelation.

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good
1 Thessalonians 5:19–21

The Christian nearer to the life of Christ is not one who is forever announcing opinions about God and Jesus like those Christians who feel only secure by following the precepts of denominational Christianity and leaving no room for personal revelation.Revelation as Christians always experienced it through the texts left throughout history is far more dynamic than any newspaper account you imagine the Book Of Revelation to be of some historical event in history centering around Nero or Domitian.Genuine relevation was always loved by Christians and remains so for those who actually live in imitation of Jesus -

"But these things are not to be disclosed to the uninitiated, by whom I mean those attached to the objects of human thought, and who believe there is no superessential Reality beyond, and who imagine that by their own understanding they know it that has made Darkness Its secret place. And if the principles of the divine Mysteries are beyond the understanding of these, what is to be said of others still more incapable thereof, who describe the transcendental First Cause of all by characteristics drawn from the lowest order of beings, while they deny that it is in any way above the images which they fashion after various designs; whereas they should affirm that, while it possesses all the positive attributes of the universe (being the Universal Cause) yet, in a more strict sense, it does not possess them, since it transcends them all; wherefore there is no contradiction between the affirmations and the negations, inasmuch as it infinitely precedes all conceptions of deprivation, being beyond all positive and negative distinctions"

http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeII/MysticalTheology.html

Now that is Revelation,that is the whole Christian in front of you just as St Francis taught and always found in the life of a Christian who accepts hell for the sake of heaven rather than those who try to avoid hell -

http://feastofsaints.com/perfectjoy.htm

There are two types of Christians in the Church as Augustine noted,those who guess at heaven and hell on one side and those who have known heaven and hell within their own existence , typified by the apostles Peter and John in Augustine's reckoning.Whether complicated or simple,entirely dynamic or gentle,Christians balance their own individual faith with that of the community but be sure not to fall to one side or the other totally ,one of the reasons we have the Book Of Revelation.

qrrgprgua

gkell3 wrote: »

The Christian nearer to the life of Christ is not one who is forever announcing opinions about God and Jesus like those Christians who feel only secure by following the precepts of denominational Christianity and leaving no room for personal revelation.

Fatima wasn't a personal revelation.. It was an apparition to 3 Children.

Non Catholics always take exception to this. The Catholic Church didn't invent anything. Same as Garabandal/Medjegorje

To be a Catholic you don't have to believe in any of this. But that does not mean the message given was not true. Russia did spread its evil.. A worse war did come....

gkell3

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Fatima wasn't a personal revelation.. It was an apparition to 3 Children.

Non Catholics always take exception to this. The Catholic Church didn't invent anything. Same as Garabandal/Medjegorje

To be a Catholic you don't have to believe in any of this. But that does not mean the message given was not true. Russia did spread its evil.. A worse war did come....

Well, a prophet is not an arbitrary dictator of future events as William Blake once noted although many people prefer to think that way however genuine prophets determine that if a person,group or country carries on in such and such a manner,the consequences are predictable.More often than not,only when catastrophic consequences emerge does prophesy make sense,I see it in the direction that science has taken while others see it in other walks of life,not as a speculative thing and predicting the future but simply interpreting excesses in things great and small.Everyone becomes a prophet after the event,recent developments in Ireland are proof enough of that yet true prophesy is knowing what is important to avoid severe and extreme conditions which arise from inaction and people of the most encompassing faith always possessed this quality -

"Now two men, one named Eldad and the other Medad, were not in the
gathering but had been left in the camp. They too had been on the
list, but had not gone out to the tent; yet the spirit came to rest on
them also, and they prophesied in the camp.So, when a young man
quickly told Moses, "Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the
camp,"Joshua, son of Nun, who from his youth had been Moses' aide,
said, "Moses, my lord, stop them."But Moses answered him, "Are you
jealous for my sake? Would that all the people of the Lord were
prophets! Would that the Lord might bestow his spirit on them all!"
Numbers 11


The early Church experienced many internal conflicts as groups fought over the meaning of Christ and it is still going on however there was one group who did see the trajectory of the development of Christianity and that group give us the Book Of Revelation.It is how I accept prophesy and I would have very little to say about it as it speaks for itself and even then in only brief glimpses.It is a message of hope and always will be.