Red card and penalty or take the goal

kakee

Just thinking back on something said in the commentry in the Spurs v Chelsea game last night when Cech tripped Adebayorbut Bale scored anyway.

Would you rather have a penalty and the keeper sent off or would you rather have the goal on the scoreboard and just get on with it instead.

killwill

Take the goal tbh.
One in the hand is worth two in the bush

flanzer

You only get sent off if you prevent a clear goalscoring opportunity. Bale would have to have been 5/10 yards further back down the field for Cech to have been sent off.

If Bale decided to miss blast the ball into row Z, in order to get Cech sent off, he would have looked an even bigger mug.

G.K.

It's irrelevant, if a goal is scored then the ref cannot send off the player.

ROCKMAN

Take the goal .
but if its as clear as yesterday then I really think it should be goal stands and Red card (or yellow).
Cannot see why it is any different that allowing play continue and booking the player after... as happens everywhere else on the pitch.

eZe^

Red card and penalty. But if it's outside the box (a la CL final 2006), take the goal!

Omeceron

If the goal is scored, give the captain the choice.

Does he want the goal to stand or red card and peno.

Morzadec

Depends on the stage of the match. The earlier the match the bigger advantage playing against 10 men is. I'm sure Ghana and Gyan would have taken the goal against Uruguay!

But in a situation like yesterday red card and peno every day of the week. Decision would depend slightly on how confident you were in your peno taker, but most top teams have a very good peno taker, and even if you don't it should be about an 80% goal. Think Spurs could have gone on to win it had the ref made the decision. Also is there an argument for letting the goal stand and retrospectively giving a red to Cech for a professional foul?

I remember Mourinho and Chelsea moaning about Garcia's 'phantom' goal in the 2005 Champions League semi-final - if it hadn't been given the ref surely would have had to send off Cech and give a penalty. Even if the penalty was missed Liverpool would have been big favourites and if it had been scored it would have been close to game over.

Royale with Cheese

It's not a great rule anyway, one I heard they were looking to review. Unless it's a blatant hack down on a player facing an open goal, the majority of the time a penalty is a better goalscoring opportunity than the one that was denied. It's too harsh a punishment. In the case of cech a goal was scored and he wasn't trying to hack down adebayor, calls for a retrospective red card are ludicrous. Yellow maybe but that's it.

I'd be especially sympathetic with keepers with this rule. It's not difficult to dive at a striker's feet to try and win the ball and end up taking him down. It's not like it's a blatant hack from behind.

Zebra3

Depends on how long is gone in the game and what score it is.

Rekop dog

Depends who's taking the pen in a match. If it's Super Mario, I'll take the red and pen all day. If it's Jermaine Defoe I'd just take the goal.

Morzadec

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

It's not a great rule anyway, one I heard they were looking to review. Unless it's a blatant hack down on a player facing an open goal, the majority of the time a penalty is a better goalscoring opportunity than the one that was denied. It's too harsh a punishment. In the case of cech a goal was scored and he wasn't trying to hack down adebayor, calls for a retrospective red card are ludicrous. Yellow maybe but that's it.

I'd be especially sympathetic with keepers with this rule. It's not difficult to dive at a striker's feet to try and win the ball and end up taking him down. It's not like it's a blatant hack from behind.

I have to agree with this. The red card/peno can happen to the best of keepers and it almost immediately ruins a match if it happens early in a scoreless game.

pickarooney

You'd want to be a bit of a bollocks to deliberately miss, in fairness.

Dempsey

Cech couldn't be sent off, except for violent conduct, regardless of what Bale did with the advantage.

Gimme a goal over a penalty/potential card any day of the week.

kitakyushu

Depends also on the situation. If I was 2-0 down like Spurs were I think I'd have preferred the peno + red. I'd have fancied my chances better with a peno to take and then another 35-40mins (poss 70mins) with an extra man.

AnCapaillMor

Take the goal i remember seeing torino lose a UEFA cup spot years ago, same situation, the ref gave the penalty, senf off the player, torino missed and i can't remember did they lose or draw but they just missed out on the UEFA spot on the last game fo the season.

Richard Hillman

in the spurs situation I think the red and peno would have been better. You have to fancy your player from 12 yards against a cold keeper. The rules should be changed to let the manager or captain decide after the incident.

Guy:Incognito

G.K. wrote: »

It's irrelevant, if a goal is scored then the ref cannot send off the player.

A foul is still a foul. Was Cech given a yellow?

Theres nothing stopping the ref (happens plenty of times) playign advantage and still booking the player.

prettyboy81

No matter what situation always take the goal IMO...yesterday was prime example Spurs got the goal & were flying after it, easily cold have got a 2nd but their defence collapsed. Relying on too many if, buts & maybes with red card, penalty & outcome...

Dempsey

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

A foul is still a foul. Was Cech given a yellow?

Theres nothing stopping the ref (happens plenty of times) playign advantage and still booking the player.

The rules state different for this scenario

Lukker-

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

A foul is still a foul. Was Cech given a yellow?

Theres nothing stopping the ref (happens plenty of times) playign advantage and still booking the player.

If its a red card offense play has to be stopped.

Gbear

Dempsey wrote: »

The rules state different for this scenario

So, if in the buildup to a goal any player fouls another and it warrants a card, the ref plays on and the other team scores, he can't book the player?
Or is it just the keeper?
If you're caught cheating, surely the penalty should be determined by that fact and not by whether your cheating affected the outcome or not?

Either way, it's stupid. Keepers have to dive for balls like that. A penalty and a yellow card is harsh enough.

Red cards should be reserved for violent conduct or deliberate cheating that stops a goal. If the keeper jumps on the player's back or tackles him to the floor, rugby style, then fair enough.

aidan24326

It's a stupid question really. Of course you take the goal, espcially when you're 2 down as Tottenham were at the time. Ball on penalty spot does not equal goal. Plenty of them get missed. And the oppostion going down to 10 men is more of an advantage if you're defending a lead rather than coming from behind, imo.

Skid

If you could be certain that the Ref would give a Red Card, I would take the penalty.

Even more so if the other team has used all their Subs and would have to throw an Outfield player in Goal to replace the Red Carded keeper. That would really turn the game around.

Guy:Incognito

Lukker- wrote: »

If its a red card offense play has to be stopped.

He coudl have been given a yellow though. I missed a chunk of the match so I dont know if he was.

Guy:Incognito

aidan24326 wrote: »

It's a stupid question really. Of course you take the goal, espcially when you're 2 down as Tottenham were at the time.

Circumstances can be different. What if Chelsea had used all their subs at that stage? Then your talkign about a penalty and over half an hour against a team with an outfield player in goal.

Dempsey

Gbear wrote: »

So, if in the buildup to a goal any player fouls another and it warrants a card, the ref plays on and the other team scores, he can't book the player?
Or is it just the keeper?
If you're caught cheating, surely the penalty should be determined by that fact and not by whether your cheating affected the outcome or not?

Either way, it's stupid. Keepers have to dive for balls like that. A penalty and a yellow card is harsh enough.

Red cards should be reserved for violent conduct or deliberate cheating that stops a goal. If the keeper jumps on the player's back or tackles him to the floor, rugby style, then fair enough.

Just checked the ruling and I'm surprised to learn that what Bale did with the advantage mattered in the referee's decision making. I think the onus should be on the play to take the advantage if its there by not allowing a recourse if they mess it up. Thats just my thinking because so many players nowadays try to manipulate the rules into unfair advantages.

FIFA's Laws of the Game, Law 12, Article 78

If the referee applies advantage during an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and a goal is scored directly, despite the opponent's handling of the ball or fouling an opponent, the player cannot be sent off but he may still be cautioned.

Now you can argue that Cech should have been cautioned but he did apply the laws of the game correctly.

Fuhrer

Dempsey wrote: »

Just checked the ruling and I'm surprised to learn that what Bale did with the advantage mattered in the referee's decision making. I think the onus should be on the play to take the advantage if its there by not allowing a recourse if they mess it up. Thats just my thinking because so many players nowadays try to manipulate the rules into unfair advantages.

FIFA's Laws of the Game, Law 12, Article 78



Now you can argue that Cech should have been cautioned but he did apply the laws of the game correctly.

What happens in that case if Cech was already yellow carded?

Skid

Dempsey wrote: »

FIFA's Laws of the Game, Law 12, Article 78

One pedantic point, FIFA don't make the Football laws, the International Football Association Board do. FIFA have 50% of the votes, the English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland FA's have the rest.

http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/history/law/ifab.html

Dempsey

Fuhrer wrote: »

What happens in that case if Cech was already yellow carded?

Its the discretion of the referee to issue a yellow card or not. As I said, you can argue whether he should have been booked or not but he couldnt issue a straight red card.

Skid wrote: »

One pedantic point, FIFA don't make the Football laws, the International Football Association Board do. FIFA have 50% of the votes, the English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland FA's have the rest.

http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/history/law/ifab.html

How is that relevant? This is about the rules of the game, not who decides them.

CSF

aidan24326 wrote: »

And the oppostion going down to 10 men is more of an advantage if you're defending a lead rather than coming from behind, imo.

This is insanely stupid. If it was easier to attain a win when in front, with 10 rather than 11 players, I'm pretty sure somebody might have tried that tactic at some point.

Leiva

easy .

goals win games.

Luap

Happened in the Barca Arsenal Champions League Final. The Ref should of gave the goal but instead gave a penalty and red card which wrecked the game.

CSF

We had an incident against Pats in the cup semi final last year while 1 nil down. Keeper fouled Dawson and was sent off and we got a peno. We scored it and then got 2 more to win 3-1

I can't help but feel that even if we had missed that peno and been 1 down against 10 men, that it'd have been easier than being 1-1 away from home against 11

Beefy78

There was a bit of research done a couple of years ago which suggested that red cards very rarely have an impact on a game's result, despite the popular opinion. They tend to lock down the score as it is when the red card is awarded - especially in cases where the stronger team are the one who are reduced to ten.

http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~vecer/redcard.pdf

aidan24326

CSF wrote: »

This is insanely stupid. If it was easier to attain a win when in front, with 10 rather than 11 players, I'm pretty sure somebody might have tried that tactic at some point.

And your post is insanely stupid as I never said any such thing. Read posts properly in future before you make silly knee-jerk replies and make yourself look like an eejit.

CSF

aidan24326 wrote: »

And your post is insanely stupid as I never said any such thing. Read posts properly in future before you make silly knee-jerk replies and make yourself look like an eejit.

Touché.

BOHtox

G.K. wrote: »

It's irrelevant, if a goal is scored then the ref cannot send off the player.

Yes he can! Have you never seen a ref go back and book a player after he has played advantage? Happens all the time.

Also, at the time I thought I'd rather a Peno and a red card instead of the goal and I haven't changed my mind since.

Beefy78

BOHtox wrote: »

Yes he can! Have you never seen a ref go back and book a player after he has played advantage? Happens all the time.

He can go back and book him but can't send him off, as per Dempsey's post in this thread (post 27)

FIFA's Laws of the Game, Law 12, Article 78

If the referee applies advantage during an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and a goal is scored directly, despite the opponent's handling of the ball or fouling an opponent, the player cannot be sent off but he may still be cautioned.

BOHtox

Beefy78 wrote: »

He can go back and book him but can't send him off, as per Dempsey's post in this thread (post 27)

FIFA's Laws of the Game, Law 12, Article 78

If he's already on a yellow and gets cautioned again well then he can get sent off.

Beefy78

Yes you're right but that's a lot of 'ifs'. In the situation that we're talking about (Sunday's FA Cup Semi), Cech wasn't already booked and didn't commit a yellow card worthy tackle, IMO, so G.K's claim that he couldn't have been sent off is right.