GAA Standard of referring.- No Consistency

Mr. Incognito

I was at the Kerry game today (Well done to Mayo btw) and the Referee ruined the game.

Kerry and Mayo are both open teams and play an expansive games, lads weren't going too hard as it was the league for hefty challenges or that and yet the referee's whistle never stop going. Practically every minute.

He refused to play advantage in a few key situations for both teams and honestly it was like a basketball ref. A number of times a player in possession was surrounded and wasn't touched and yet he blew for a free.

There was some outstanding defending that was totally legal and yet was deemed a foul. It was an utter joke. I don't know how many yellow cards were issued and imo only one was merited and that was an accidental closeline.

Watching the Cork game afterwards was total opposite- the ref let the game play and it was a much more enjoyable spectacle.

There has to be some mechanism for improving the standard of referees. They all seem to conform to a sterotype of small statured lads that obviously never played the game at a high level. I really think ex county players would make better referrees.

I have a serious problem with the refereeing in the last number of years and while it is improving it is still an overall joke. They need to look at TV replays as the pitch is too big for one person to police effectively. So many things that could be resolved easily they are getting wrong. The Meath goal against Louth which denied them a historic win springs to mind. I'm just sick of games being ruined by one clown in the middle.

I understand they give up their time and are amateurs and need to be comended but this doesn't make them immune from criticism as the gulf between the top two or three refs and the rest is immense.

Also- I see Congress has removed the square ball rule for the championship. There are going to be problems over this I reckon such as people obstructing keepers.

themandan6611

the standard of referring has gone from bad to terrible over the last 5 years.

never have I seen so many yellows being flashed, in the hurling a judo throw went unpunished.

to be fair, the players ain't helping with the hand under the defenders arm dragging down looking for the free coupled with dives.

players in the 80's and earlier must be turning in their grave

Didn't see todays game, but in relation to Football in general. I think it's a tough game to officiate, the rules on winning possession don't fit in with a physical game.
If played to the letter of the law, it would be next to impossible to disposes a man(effectively like basketball where you're trying to win clean possession without contact) and lads would be bearing down on goal with ease.

So the only way to effect pressure on a runner is to foul him, it's then up to the ref to decide how overly aggressive it was, and this will vary from person to person as you can't enact the ruling 100% as it would lead to no contact bar shoulders.

It's a lot easier to call a foul in soccer where you can't make contact with the player, and Aussie Rules where a player is only deemed to have fouled if he tackles too high or low, pushes or pulls a man backwards.
It's a lot more clear cut in other sports even hurling as the ball is presented for hooking opportunites.

cgpg5

Ref was a joke at Mayo/Kerry game blowing for nothing Vaughan got penalised about 3 times for nothing fouls, then McLoughlin was running through on the 30, was blatantly pushed and nothing. Horan was fuming and rightly so. It was infuriating to watch tbh

Hammer Time

Gaelic football probably sufferers more than hurling with regards poor refereeing. In my opinion there are a number of factors that can be looked at.
The pace of intercounty football has increased enormously in the last 5 years, especially among Div 1 and 2 teams where conditioning practices are in line with other professional sports. This makes it harder on (less conditioned) referees to keep with the play and also keeping a decent angle on the action which is essential for accurate decision making. Also the size of the playing area must be taken into account. The bigger pitches are simiaalr in size to AFL ptches. In my opinion the intercounty game game would probably benefit from the addition of a second official which would lessen the workload placed on a single referee.
Secondly, as someone rightly pointed out, the current set of rules for football are not clear in their description of many facets of of football play. This is clearly apparent in the area of the tackle where almost everyone has a different opinion of what is legal and what is not. I think the GAA could learn a lot from the AFL here. The rules in the AFL are very clear and the referee clearly states what the infringement was to the offending player. If they argue, they go on report.
I think the GAA alo has a lot to answer for with regard to referee training. Almost every referee on the intercounty panel will be known for having his own style. If the training they received was adequate then this would become less apparent and we would have a more consistent level of decision making.
On the flip-side referees in the GAA are not professional, unlike their counterparts in the Premiership/AFL. So just like the players, they must balance their training/officiating with job/family commitments etc. They must put up with a lot of verbal (and sometimes physical) abuse and it is a job that I would not envy one bit.

cuttothechase

This is something I thought about a lot watching the first game yesterday. I think it is an issue which has to be addressed immediately even before the Championship starts. Refereeing has been frustrating to say the least over the past few years, especially if you are from Kildare, Louth or Kerry. Being loyal Cork supporters myself and my dad turned to each other and smiled when we watched the replays on the Sunday game last night of the Mayo penalty and that free that Mayo got to draw, very soft. The same can be said for the free awarded to Bernard Brogan in last years Leinster Final against Kildare which resulted in the winning point, we won't even mention the All Ireland Final's winning free kick. Consistancy has been lost across all levels and sometimes referess just don't give anything to certain teams. Look at the Cork/Mayo All Ireland quarter final last year. Fair enough Mayo destoyed Cork and Cork were useless but for a Cork player to get a free that day in Croke Park he would nearly have to have been lying unconcious first, there was nothing given. I don't think you can copare AFL umpiring to GAA as there are 2 umpires on the pitch at all times, making it easier. It could also be an option for GAA. I think they should take a leaf out of the IRB's book. Look at what happened to Wayne Barnes and Dave Pearson after their dreadful performances in this years 6 Nations. They were relegated to a lower tier of refereeing. There has to be a standard raised and ref's should adhere to that standard, or else face the consequences. Somebody needs to monitor the referees.

blackbelt

cuttothechase wrote: »

Being loyal Cork supporters myself and my dad turned to each other and smiled when we watched the replays on the Sunday game last night of the Mayo penalty and that free that Mayo got to draw, very soft. The same can be said for the free awarded to Bernard Brogan in last years Leinster Final against Kildare which resulted in the winning point, we won't even mention the All Ireland Final's winning free kick..

Shall we not mention the wrongfully given sideline ball Cork were given in the 2010 All Ireland semi final that cost Dublin a point to get Cork level?I don't think so.Every county gets the rub of the green at some stage then other counties are simply constantly rode.I have to admit Kildare have gotten some really bad decisions against them but moreso the square ball Coulter scored a goal with.Thats the one that sticks out in my mind even though if you look back through most of those games,Kildare are outplayed until they start coming back.

Cork don't seem to be rode by any referee as Kerry outplay them when it matters.It is only until another team beats Cork out the gate that I hear Cork fans moan about referee decisions.

cuttothechase wrote: »

There has to be a standard raised and ref's should adhere to that standard, or else face the consequences. Somebody needs to monitor the referees.

What standard do you use though?GAA is twice as fast as rugby and soccer combined.Rules are open to interpretation by the referee and often enough common sense is applied in some situations over others.There is very rarely if even a game where a referee gets 100% of the decisions correct.I could watch a replay of a game I refereed and I would probably say I could have let play continue by playing advantage in one situation or I should have branded a yellow card in situations where I was more lenient.

I do however agree that referees should be relegated and promoted like teams would based on an assessment and performance related appraisal.You take into account the weighted importance of the game, the conditions, the tempo and the teams involved per game and get an average marking for the referee whilst taking his county origin into account for appointments for championship games.

I would go as far as to say that some referees are seen as sacred cows in the GAA.Marty Duffy,Michael Collins and Maurice Deegan spring to mind.At this moment in time the best referees out there are David Coldrick and Eddie Kinsella.There are other referees out there that are lower division who could well do a job and Damien Brazil from Offaly would be one that springs to mind.

Hammer Time

I dont think a quick fix would solve all the problems. Its something that would need to be hammered out over a longer period. The GAA could benefit form taking a look at as many team sports as possible. Ladies GAA could be looked at also. For example, the set timer is a great idea in my opinion.

The issue isnt whether your team comes out on top out of a certain situation, the issue how to improve the level of officiating in the game itself especially at the top level where the stakes are higher. My points were suggestions at how the GAA might improve the level of officiating.

You gave the example of the Dub v Kildare. I dont care about the result in this instance. If you look at the footage again you can that when the incident happened the referee was ~40 m away (in the wrong half) and on the wrong side. If there was 2 officials on the field then maybe a more accurate decision could have been made.

You could make the same case with the (now amended) square ball rule. Its a difficult rule to police because a lot of the time pass toward the square is from a long distance meaning the referee is out of position. The umpires arent allowed call a square ball either so the odds are a little against a referee in there instances.

The fact of the matter is that these bad calls happen a lot during the championship and in my opinion it is down to i) inadequate fitness ii) not enough training/monitoring and feedback for referees themselves and iii) an outdated rule book with too many grey areas. The aim is too make the decision making across the board as homogenous as possible so when players go out to play the game they know exactly what they can and cannot do and have confidence in the official(s) to make the right call.

cuttothechase

I was only using examples off the top of my head. Sorry, should have known better, this thread is about refereeing and not about what went on in certain games, yes these things happen in all games, the examples I had in my post were the ones that just sprang to mind, didn't mean to upset anybody. Some good points made in the last post Hammer Time. Fitness could be a big thing that should be looked at.

Hammer Time

I didnt mean to put you down or anything. I was just trying to stick with the OP. There's enough moany threads on GAA forums where people complain about how their county "got done" by the referee. Its annoying to listen to and ruins so many discussions.

The games are evolving because teams are quicker and stronger then ever before. The skill levels, in both codes, are also much higher than they were 20 years ago. One person alluded to the speed of the game and how it makes it very difficult to call in real time. So this is one area where having fitter refs would benefit decision making.

[I remember reading an article from the Guardian Newspaper (sorry cant find the link) where the referees assoc showed 5 offside decisions to some top soccer journalists and asked them to say whether it was offside or not. The journos got 20% right between them demonstrating how hard it actually is to referee at the top level. Another stat was that in one instance where a wrong decision was made re an offside, the linesman was 0.3 m off the line of the play. The refereeing standard in the Premiership is v high with approx ~95% of decisions being correct. These referees are full-time professionals and are in very good shape. Compare this to their counterparts in the GAA.]

All this makes the games harder to officiate. I also think the GAA needs to be more progressive in its approach to the officiating. We havent seen a major rule change since the free was allowed to be taken from the hand. The AFL changed its rules in the 90s and the total time that the ball was in play jumped form 40% to ~60% in the space of a few years. At the moment, our games are well below 50% and some of the Ulster championship matches can be even lower again. All of this indicates that the GAA is failing to move with the game itself.

Mr. Incognito

A ref for each half of play, in cases of dispute it goes to a video ref.

Video replays. The GAA is not curropt like soccer and doesn't have to wait to follow suit. This was mentioned in last years all ireland programme and still......nada.

Qualified, trained umpires. Right now they are whoever the ref nominates,

Please do not go down how your contry was screwed EVERY county is screwed MANY MANY times, in EVERY game. If they made some effort to reduce that and bring up the standard of consistency we would be a happier viewing public

corny

What i'd like to see is a return to common sense.

This constant push for 'consistency' (i blame the the soccer types constantly moaning about it) is a dream and the more you push for it the poorer the relative performance of referees is going to become. You can't create a breed of homogeneous refs and a referee will never take the pitch and not make a mistake. Think of it this way. If a player can't go out and do everything absolutely perfectly every game why does everyone expect a referee to be infallible. Its ridiculous.

The referee should be given leeway to apply the rules as he sees fit and if that means differing interpretations amongst referees then so be it.

The rules and the letter of the law have become a noose around the neck imo. I'm not saying abandon the rules and lets have a free for all, just i see referees running around and i could swear they have a computer program in their heads instead of a brain. Let them use the brain ffs.:)

Pharaoh1

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Didn't see todays game, but in relation to Football in general. I think it's a tough game to officiate, the rules on winning possession don't fit in with a physical game.
If played to the letter of the law, it would be next to impossible to disposes a man(effectively like basketball where you're trying to win clean possession without contact) and lads would be bearing down on goal with ease.

So the only way to effect pressure on a runner is to foul him, it's then up to the ref to decide how overly aggressive it was, and this will vary from person to person as you can't enact the ruling 100% as it would lead to no contact bar shoulders.

It's a lot easier to call a foul in soccer where you can't make contact with the player, and Aussie Rules where a player is only deemed to have fouled if he tackles too high or low, pushes or pulls a man backwards.
It's a lot more clear cut in other sports even hurling as the ball is presented for hooking opportunites.

Correct.
There are a few technical issues but the tackle is the area where the vast majority of the problems are.
I'm amazed that on programmes like the Sunday Game there has never been even a 20 minute segment devoted explicitly to a serious in depth look at the tackle and the tackle rules.
Many inter county managers like Kildare have brought in referees to try to give their players a clearer understanding of what is allowed and its got nowhere.
I heard an inter county manager (can't remember who) on the radio recently saying that before a game the referee had told him that the tackle had to be "hand in, hand out" or he would give a free.

The manager just laughed when he though about it and wondered what would be allowed by the next ref next week.