croke park

carolzoo

does croke park agreement only stand till january 2014.

does that mean the govt just has to wait a year and half before they start cutting pay? and expect us to continue doing croke park duties???


if they cut pay then (i.e. in jan 2014) do we still have to abide by the croke park rules ? e.g. extra 33 hours etc etc.??

first our pay, then our pensions, then croke park, next it will be pay cuts again, when they have everything else squeezed out of us i.e. 33 hours, huge pupil teacher ratio, riduculus incidential insepctions, excessive planning/paper work - which means we are heading towards the english system - and we all know that has lead to deterioration in standards in england (p.s. apparently the uk are trying to reverse all the paperwork now to allow teachers focus more on actual teaching) . croke park was a bad deal imo.

doc_17

If the cutting pay element only holds until 2014 and then they can cut it again then I'd imagine the same is true of the hours. Why should we have to do them?

But I'd say the CPA might not make it that far. There are no real savings from it. Doing 33 extra hours might be worth x million euro but it doesn't save x million euro unfortunately

Tigerandahalf

Tbh those extra hours are only a sham. Most schools seem to be trying to figure out how they will use up the extra 36 hours. I was against CP at the start and I think it still has been a bad deal. We left ourselves open to have contracts changed and it has been used as a stick to beat us with by the press. The feeling out there now is that we have been protected from the recession even though an average 14% cut has been taken between direct paycut and pension levy.

Darwin

In reality, the CPA introduced pay cuts by the back door when it was introduced. In third level, the agreement gave an additional 2 timetabled hours for lecturing staff which translates to 6 hours+ given class preparation time, etc. Asking someone to work additional hours for no additional remuneration is a pay cut no matter how you dress it up.

On the subject of pensions, the biggest unreported scandal is the raiding of the National Pension Reserve Fund which was established to pay PS pensions and social welfare from 2025 onwards. How are future pensions going to be funded now? There has been much talk about PS Rolls Royce pensions from IBEC et al, now we have Rolls Royce contributions and nothing at the end of it.

Powerhouse

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Tbh those extra hours are only a sham. Most schools seem to be trying to figure out how they will use up the extra 36 hours.

Absolutely. I probably speak for all teachers when I say that virtually any meetings I have been involved throughout the year about inspections, sports (training etc.), seachtain na gaeilge, mock orals etc. have been done as they were needed outside of Croke Park hours.

By the time the Croke Park meeting came around, as you say, it was a question of what are we going to do with the time because we simply could not wait for the Croke Park hour when things needed to be done on the hoof. Their very existence shows a complete lack of knowledge as to how schools actually work. You would resent giving up lunch-times for meetings when that BS has to be done for 33 hours anyway.

Godge

carolzoo wrote: »

does croke park agreement only stand till january 2014..

Think it is 2014 all right but maybe not as early as January.

carolzoo wrote: »

does that mean the govt just has to wait a year and half before they start cutting pay? and expect us to continue doing croke park duties???.

Yes, teachers have agreed to no pay cuts before 2014 in exchange for industrial peace and continued funding.

carolzoo wrote: »

if they cut pay then (i.e. in jan 2014) do we still have to abide by the croke park rules ? e.g. extra 33 hours etc etc.??.

Yes, the teacher unions agreed to permanent changes in working conditions in return for short-term protetion of those who are surolus.

carolzoo wrote: »

first our pay, then our pensions, then croke park, next it will be pay cuts again, when they have everything else squeezed out of us i.e. 33 hours, huge pupil teacher ratio, riduculus incidential insepctions, excessive planning/paper work - which means we are heading towards the english system - and we all know that has lead to deterioration in standards in england (p.s. apparently the uk are trying to reverse all the paperwork now to allow teachers focus more on actual teaching) . croke park was a bad deal imo.

yes, more to come eventually.

doc_17

If we agreed to reforms under the croke park deal when it expires I have no problem not doing doing those extra hours. The media always use terms like industrial action as if it means strikes and closing schools. But if pay is cut again industrial action could mean not fulfilling those hours.

At least the ASTI have taken a proactive stance on those hours and are trying to gain recognition for extra-curricular activities under those extra hours. I'd have no problem with that since I'm doing that anyway and yet have to these idiotic hours on top of that.

Someone else here mentioned that they feel the school have wasted their hours. Well, you wouldn't believe some of the people who came in to speak to us. Total waste of time. Left us anfry, annoyed, frustrated that someone could think that that would be of any benefit to us.

bdoo

my understanding is that once croke park expires, the extra hours do too...

fries

There is no way you'll return to the old system once Croke Park expires. I would envisage they are already planning further changes to kick-in after 2014. Unless everyone mobilizes in street protests / mass shutdowns, the government of Kenny will continue his EU lapdog attitude. I recommend making the campaign more inclusive of all sectors instead of being one-sided. That way, more people may join you on the streets when the strikes hit the country.

Of course pay is going to be cut, and probably sooner than 2014 in my opinion. There is simply no money and there will be less and less every year. It is inevitable. Along with massive reforms, with regards to holidays etc. Not to mention allowances. All of the public sector will suffer further cuts, along with social welfare payments.

Tigerandahalf

Holidays won't be touched as they don't save any money. Making the school year longer would actually cost the gov extra money.

byhookorbycrook

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Holidays won't be touched as they don't save any money. Making the school year longer would actually cost the gov extra money.

But is this not what the Croke park hours did?Extend the school year?

Tigerandahalf

Sorry, how did they extend the year?
Maybe teachers are working 'extra' hours but the gov are not paying extra money.

I put the extra in quotes as teachers were already doing lots of extra hours anyway.

implausible

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Sorry, how did they extend the year?
Maybe teachers are working 'extra' hours but the gov are not paying extra money.

I put the extra in quotes as teachers were already doing lots of extra hours anyway.

Well, in my school, we voted to go back a day early to use up some of these pointless hours - that is making the year longer. The new calendar stipulates that students must all be back by a certain date and be present in school on the last day of term.

Personally (and I'll be shot for this), I don't see why the Govt. haven't gone for the most straight-forward option - get rid of s/s and include an extra hour of this in every full-timer's contract. This would actually save money, save the grief about that allowance being cut and make some actual productive use of teachers' time. Given the choice between listening to someone sh*ting on at 5 o'clock on a November Thursday and doing lunchtime supervision, I know what I'd choose...

spurious

Personally, I think the biggest effect of the Croke Park hours has been to kill the good will by which almost everyone did something in their own time after school.
Not on your nelly now.

Trollish and anti-charter stuff deleted. Please read the charter.

doc_17

Spurious said it in one line: goodwill. I stayed back with the JCHL class every year I had them for 1h 15mins every week. This was great as it allowed for revison and improved results. Now i don't do this. Even if principals were allowed to have more discretion with those hours then that would be helpful.