Deputy Principal Position / discipline in schools

carolzoo

Just wondering what are the pros and cons of such a position and what it entails. I have an idea - existing teacher but there could be other work behind the scenes that I am unaware of.

What are the advantages of moving to such a position from being an existing teacher?

Disadvantages?


Discipline is an area in need of attention in my own school. mangement seem to ignore the problem and leave it to the individual class teachers to sort - this doesn't work. Teachers needs back up outside of the classroom.

This is one of the reasons why I am interested in becomming a deputy principal. I would like to work to support teachers. I always assumed it was the job of management to facilitate teaching and learning to take place in the classrom (after the teacher had taken all reasonable steps to deal with the problem) - by providing an environment where teachers could teach in the absence of discipline problems. Unfortunately this is not happening in a lot of schools.

Who is there to inspect that management are doing their job?

solerina

I can only speak for my school, but our DP deals mainly with record keeping....the attendances, contacting parents when students have missed a lot of days, passing on the info if the student misses too many days. He also organises the S&S in school. He has only a limited role in discipline.....probably should have more but isnt interested really....isnt really a people person, is much better with paper work !! Also takes on some of the former posts as the post holders retire and there is no one to do the work.

Advantages:
I suppose more flexibility, when you are not stuck to a full time table.

Disadvantages:
Isolated from the rest of the staff.
May have no real support in tough times.
May end up doing more than they are meant to if the principal isnt great.
Loss of class contact (the kids are why I became a teacher).
The money isnt great in smaller schools for the extra responsibility.

bdoo

Hi

I think the role of the dp depends on the school and the principal.

There are no specific tasks thst they should or shouldnt do but the work needs to be divided up so that it gets done by the principal, deputy or post holders.

in some schools a deputy may be a pure disciplinarian in others an administrator and manager. in my view it should be a mixture, they also need to support teachers and learners.

I think if you want to interview for a deputy position you have to know yourself whay you want for the school and what you want for the kids, does it just annoy you that the dp doesnt do discipline or do you think that if they did it would mean x or y that would improve the school I. some way.

there are so many things that go on behind the scenes that need to be done every day, not a job to be taken on lightly...

E.T.

As well as all of the advice above, bear in mind that you'd have to be willing and ready to act as principal in case of their illness/absence.

What you'd end up doing depends a great deal on the size of the school. You'd really have to think over whether all of the extra work and stress would be worth it, whether you feel it would impact on the amount of time you spend doing classroom planning etc.

rainbowtrout

It would also depend on the school you went for DP in. If you were going for it in your own school you have a fair idea of the way the place operates and what could be improved etc. In another school where you are going in as the newcomer the DP role may be more pre-defined. You might find out that the previous DP dealt mainly with discipline or mainly with admin and you might be expected to continue where they left off.

In terms of inspection, when we had our whole school evaluation the inspectors spent most of it with the principal and DP so I guess their management skills are scrutinized then.

carolzoo

Thanks guys,

The deputy is responsible for discipline mainly in our school but spends her time in the office!

Perhaps though there are other things behind the scenes I am overlooking that she must be doing in the office - administration, finance, budgets etc. The school secretary does the S & S forms and roster.

I would just love if there was a uniform policy on discipline that was adheared to. Badly needed in our school. It is a deis school so a lot of disadvantaged students.

Anyhow thanks for your replies - food for thought.

Fizzical

The Principal and the DP run the school. This is the main advantage of the position - you get to influence and take part in the direction the school goes, intake, policies, subjects, curriculum, extra-curricular activities, staff development, community involvement, parents' involvement, sport, finance, buildings, legalities, DES involvement, influence of trustees - the whole shebang. It's a different level, a different point of view, a different job.

TheDriver

it also depends if the principal will let you. My principal lets me do my job as I see fit once I don't do anything which I know contravenes his ideas without saying it first. Discipline is what you make it, I spend a lot of time on the small stuff i.e. hounding uniform every morning but the big stuff disappears quickly and my uniform policy is applied to the hilt. However as much as I back staff up, some staff will present tough cases to you where they are partly to blame but want something done. also be prepared for staff demanding expulsion now whereas in 2 days time, everything is back to normal.
Its all what you make of it. To be honest, discipline is the boring part of the job because its just constant hounding etc. Its other things that make it interesting such as school development, interaction with the kids etc.

The inspectorate see if we're doing our job but discipline is a school internal matter but they will get a vibe if its a nut house when they call

carolzoo

Thanks guys,

Just wondering how many teaching hours you have to do as deputy. I am in a school of 650 students, our deputy teaches but I am not sure how many hours.

does the hours they teach vary from school to school? i know it depends on the number of students but could you have two deputies with the same number of students in a school doing different teaching hours i.e. perhaps one does ten hours teaching the other does six hours teaching, i.e. is it at the discretion of the school ?

Many thanks

TheDriver

there is a circular but we don't teach much, think its 3 hours a week.

carolzoo

Thanks the Driver,


Just wondering what sort of personality you need to be naturally in order to be a good deputy principal?

I just want to see would I be suited to it at all etc

Do you need to be a good public speaker? etc etc.

What are the natural characteristics one would need?

TheDriver

you need to be a people person, able to negotiate, think clearly and on your feet, have the courage to act and make decisions, be able to follow circulars and rules, have foresight. You could be an excellent person with paperwork but in this current age, you need to be sociable and like walking the corridors, meeting kids, talking to people.
And mostly you must be able to go home without carrying the troubles of the world with you, my desk is piled high with crap but i haven't thought about it in 2 weeks and will deal with it on my return.

solerina

The teaching hours does probably depend on the school, our DP teaches 12 class periods per week at the moment

Delphi91

Dept Circular states that the maximum number of hours in a week for a DP is 8 and for a Principal is 5. Whether you actually do any teaching or not will vary from school to school, depending on circumstances - shortage of staff, etc.

The only thing that I'll say in relation to discipline is that you should not be the face of discipline in the school - otherwise you'll find every teacher handing over their problems to you to solve when 9 times out of 10 they can solve/prevent the issue themselves. Discipline should be a school-wide issue with everyone playing their part.

In my school, I am the DP and also chair Disciplinary Committees. I am therefore supposed to be impartial when it comes to a specific issue. This cannot be the case if I, as DP, am involved in the daily disciplinary problems that happen in a school. This year, I've also had to step in a as a year head due to retiring post holders, and already that has caused a problem when a student of mine was before a Disciplinary Committee.

In terms of the whole discipline role, yes, by all means do your best to support the teaching staff, but for various reasons, it is far better if you are a bit up the chain. If teachers send for you or pass a problem on to you everytime there's an issue, what message does it give to the students in their class - "He/she can't control us, they need to call the DP everytime". What happens on the days when both the DP and P are out of the building???

As for what kind of a person you need to be - essentially a people person!! Be prepared for staff and students coming to you with issues - issues at home, requests for time off, looking for advice on issues, complaints about teachers/fellow colleagues. At all times bear legislation in mind, be conscious of circulars, and above all, be aware that you are dealing with people who may not have the same beliefs/information that you do. Be someone who sticks to their guns - when you make make decision, stick to it. Above all, be aware that you are not infallible, and if you screw up, admit it and be honest about it. We all do it. When it comes to making critical decisions, my thought process always looks at the bigger picture - if I make this decision today, what are the ramifications for the running of the school tomorrow, next week, next month, year, etc? Am I setting a precedent? Will this decision cause problems at a later date?

At a seminar I was at in my second year as DP, one piece of advice that was given to us all at the meeting was "Be friendly but not friends" - its important to keep a professional distance, especially from students. Another piece of advice was that "Your management style should be MBWA (management by walking about)". My office is away from the main school office and if I don't leave it regularly, I often discover that things have happened without me even knowing! Walk the corridors, especially at class changeover times. You can often prevent issues happening by a glance at someone, a quiet word in their ear, etc. It's also good to establish a rapport with students - learn their names, know their interests, comment on any successes they've had, etc. Walk around the canteen during breaks, chatting to students.....(Be friendly but not friends!!)

I moved into the post from within the school which gave me a great advantage in that I knew the systems already in place and didn't have quite the learning period that I would have had if I was an outsider.

Apart from teaching (if you do some), you will also have to balance a lot of daily responsibilities - I look after teacher absences (arranging cover, etc), the S&S scheme, recording part-time teacher hours. I also sit on a number of committees in the school. I'm currently working on next years timetabling and options which forces you to make decisions that are not always pallatable. But again, like I said, you have to look at the bigger picture. You are there to manage the school, it's staff and students.

And most of all, like TheDriver said, you have to be able to leave it behind when you go home.

I have to say, I thoroughly enjoy the job, even though at times it can be very tiring and frustrating!

carolzoo

Thanks guys for all the info. Really helpful.