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New Hydrogen Bus made in the North.

  • 13-04-2012 5:04pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,167 gsxr1


    Would be great to see CIE take up such a step in this direction.

    A Bus that does not burn fossil fuel.



    http://youtu.be/Mm7o61OQg2w


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭ Terrontress


    gsxr1 wrote: »
    Would be great to see CIE take up such a step in this direction.

    A Bus that does not burn fossil fuel.



    http://youtu.be/Mm7o61OQg2w

    All depends where you're getting your Hydrogen from.

    I saw Hydrogen buses in Reykjavik about 6 years ago. They'd use the hydrothermal energy to manufacture the hydrogen. Byproduct at the hydrogen plant was water, exhaust from the bus was water.

    Fair enough.

    But if you are using electricity derived from coal or gas to make your hydrogen then what is the point?


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭✭✭ Ghost_of_ED209


    Heard it goes a bomb...

    ** Observes tumble weed. **


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,287 ✭✭✭ n97 mini


    Thankfully it's a fuel cell, not burning hydrogen and feigning environmental credentials like that awful BMW Hydrogen 7.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,279 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    The UK could probably make a decent amount of hydrogen from its nuclear reactor stock via electrolysis and later via thermochemical cracking using Generation IV reactors. None of those are very near London though so then you have to transport it.

    Hydrogen has a crappy energy density - you'd probably build a whack of trolleybuses for the same money as building out a hydrogen distribution infrastructure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,998 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    Heard it goes a bomb...

    ** Observes tumble weed. **

    The vehicles are in use on the RV1 route in central London,and well worth a spin if you're there.

    They are part of a wide ranging Fuel Cell Bus experiment involving 3 continents.

    Quite a bit of gen here....

    http://www.global-hydrogen-bus-platform.com/Partners/PartnerCities/London

    As for the CIE question,given that each of the Wright Bus vehicles cost c.£3 Million ,it can be deduced that unless specific subsidy and/or Government backing is forthcoming,we'll not be whizzing around Dublin in them any day soon..

    I would suggest that Cork will most likely be Irelands Eco-Cradle in public transport terms given it's importance as the spiritual HQ of Bord Gais Eireann.....:)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭ Mr Simpson


    AlekSmart wrote: »

    As for the CIE question,given that each of the Wright Bus vehicles cost c.£3 Million ,it can be deduced that unless specific subsidy and/or Government backing is forthcoming,we'll not be whizzing around Dublin in them any day soon..

    I don't know if the video is correct, but at 0.48, it states that each bus costs £1m.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,998 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    mmcn90 wrote: »
    I don't know if the video is correct, but at 0.48, it states that each bus costs £1m.

    That could indeed be correct...the figure I got may well have been a TOTAL of £3 Million for buses and infrastructure....I think we can agree on the fact of it being a substantial sum...:)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭ cruizer101


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Thankfully it's a fuel cell, not burning hydrogen and feigning environmental credentials like that awful BMW Hydrogen 7.

    Tell me more or link, I had thought the only way to extract enegry any way effecitivly was to use a fuelcell, my understanding was hydrogen couldn't be burned in IC engine as it would combust to early due to heat. I had heard it may be possible in a wankel due to the point of fuel injection and the combustion area being different areas of the engine.

    With regards to people saying about how the energy is still being produced by fossil fuels in power plants, afaik power plants are far more efficient in producing energy than IC engines so in long run it is more environmentally friendly, I couldbe wrong and have no source but I have heard and it doesn't sound of the wall either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭ Mr Simpson


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    That could indeed be correct...the figure I got may well have been a TOTAL of £3 Million for buses and infrastructure....I think we can agree on the fact of it being a substantial sum...:)

    Yep, its a vast amount of money, but as was stated by somebody in the thread about the boris bus, thats probably not the true cost of the vehicle, as I assume it's a prototype vehicle, making it much more expensive than if it were in full production. Personally, I would imagine that it would be very expensive to introduce hydrogen fuel vehicles into an existing fleet as you would have to do some serious upgrading of infrastructure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,287 ✭✭✭ n97 mini


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    Tell me more or link,

    http://bit.ly/HJOwuG


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  • Registered Users Posts: 47 ✭✭✭ One Question


    In Irish times today.
    Ballymena-based Wrightbus will on Wednesday deliver the world’s first double-decker hydrogen buses in Aberdeen, Scotland, a city best known as a base for some of the world’s top oil companies.

    The 15 buses made by Wrightbus, which was bought by Jo Bamford, the son of JC Bamford Excavators chair Anthony Bamford, will give Aberdeen one of the world’s biggest fleets of hydrogen buses.

    The formerly family-owned Wrightbus was placed in administration last year with the immediate loss of 1,200 jobs, having been one of the North’s most successful manufacturers. It was rescued by Mr Bamford.

    Wrightbus also makes electric buses but because of the complication around charging and range-anxiety, Mr Bamford is backing hydrogen which refuels like a petrol pump.

    “When it comes to zero emissions the most difficult thing to change is human behaviour,” he said. “We’re creatures of habit, so if you can do something that mimics how we use transport today I think you get mass adoption.”

    Hydrogen is already making progress in public transport. Last week the first hydrogen-powered trains were trialled in Britain. They could be carrying passengers by 2022. Buses are ready today, and the cost of running them will come down, according to Mr Bamford, who has been in the business for 15 years.

    “We can fill it up at the same cost and it has the same running costs pretty much as a diesel bus but the capital cost is twice as expensive,” Mr Bamford said in an interview. “With a bit of volume we can get the cost down to the same.”

    He has asked the UK government for £500 million (€548 million) to support him to build 3,000 hydrogen buses by 2024. Wrightbus is about to complete an order of 20 double-decker hydrogen buses and will take delivery in London at the start of next year.

    Fuel network

    Another of Mr Bamford’s companies, Ryse Hydrogen, is focused on creating a network for the fuel. The company produces hydrogen using electricity from wind farms, installs and operates storage, transport networks, and dispensing equipment. London will be his first supply customer starting in 2021.

    Mr Bamford is looking to set up a $500 million (€425 million) fund that’ll invest in creating an entire supply chain for the gas. He’ll be putting some of his family money into it but he’s looking for someone who has run a private equity energy fund to come and work with him raising the capital.

    “Once people start figuring out how to finance this kit this stuff becomes really interesting for the financial world to get going with,” he said. “Everyone knows it’s gonna be a big market. The question is how do you get into it.”

    Aberdeen’s green-coloured buses will be road tested for a few weeks before going into service at the end of the month.


  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭ belfast stephen


    Dublin Bus and BE are due Hydrogen buses built by Wrightbus but they will be in a NTA livery as far I as I know they should be near finished or finished in the factory


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭ IE 222


    Surely they could apply a special livery to show case and promote the buses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭ ax586


    Dublin Bus and BE are due Hydrogen buses built by Wrightbus but they will be in a NTA livery as far I as I know they should be near finished or finished in the factory

    There is 3 due and all going to B.E


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    The question I always have about Hydrogen, is how are you producing it?

    People always talk about hydrogen being produced by Electrolysis/Wind, but in reality 95% of the worlds Hydrogen are produced by techniques using Coal/Oil/Gas which are almost as polluting in terms of green house gases as Diesel.

    Now in fairness, they claim they are also building out Hydrogen production facilities using wind, which is great.

    But the question I have is are they giving guarantees?

    Are they guaranteeing that 100% of the Hydrogen produced comes from Electrolysis? That they can produce enough and that no Hydrogen from oil/coal/gas sources will also be used?

    And if yes, what percentage of renewables are they guaranteeing to use?

    For instance it would be pretty poor if it ends up only a small percentage comes from electrolysis and the majority comes from the other techniques.

    I note they say the Hydrogen will cost the same as Diesel, but currently hydrogen is about twice as expensive as Diesel and that is for hydrogen produced by the cheaper oil/coal/gas techniques, electrolysis tends to be even more expensive!

    BTW Each Hydrogen bus costs €800,000, about twice the cost of Diesel versions. And the refuelling infrastructure has been estimated at about 1 million per depot.

    I'm glad they are trialling this and I hope I'm proven wrong and that costs will come down and 100% comes from electrolysis/wind. But I remain very cautious and dubious about this technology.

    BTW I'm convinced hydrogen has no place in city buses, they will be battery. It is intercity and commuter where Hydrogen might be needed, though even then I think it is only a matter of time before battery technique is good enough for them too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭ whippet


    There is a company lined up to produce the hydrogen via electrolysis in conjunction with Wright Bus

    https://www.cph2.com/news/cph2-enters-new-joint-venture-for-hydrogen-production-in-northern-ireland/


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    whippet wrote: »
    There is a company lined up to produce the hydrogen via electrolysis in conjunction with Wright Bus

    https://www.cph2.com/news/cph2-enters-new-joint-venture-for-hydrogen-production-in-northern-ireland/

    Yes, but still many unanswered questions:

    - Will they be able to produce enough hydrogen via electrolysis for large fleets of buses?
    - Will it be 100% guaranteed electrolysis?
    - What percentage of renewables used to produce the hydrogen?

    According to their website, they are currently producing only 6kg of Hydrogen per day. That is less then 600km of range for a single vehicle per day. Maybe enough for 2 or 3 vehicles running shorter distances.

    They say they are currently building a 60kg per day capacity and have long term plans for 450kg per day facility.

    While better, still on the low side. 60kg would be roughly enough for 4 intercity coaches running Cork to Dublin, 3 times a day each. At 450kg, 30 such coaches.

    It sounds small scale to me, which is fair enough, but the question would be can they economically and quickly scale up to the needs of large fleets or would fleet operators be forced to buy from the less clean sources to make up the difference?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    I guess they can't build it unless they've got someone to sell it to.

    There was some discussion of hydrogen trains on another thread and someone (you BK?) mentioned that using electricity (wind-generated or otherwise) to make hydrogen was very inefficient compared to storing it in a battery.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    loyatemu wrote: »
    I guess they can't build it unless they've got someone to sell it to.

    There was some discussion of hydrogen trains on another thread and someone (you BK?) mentioned that using electricity (wind-generated or otherwise) to make hydrogen was very inefficient compared to storing it in a battery.

    Yeah, that was probably me. The so called well to wheel efficiency (with cars anyway) looks like:

    - Battery 70 to 90%
    - Hydrogen 25 to 35%

    So with Hydrogen you need 2 to 3 times as much energy to drive the same distance.

    Which is why I don't think it has a place in cars. But with larger vehicles, trains, coaches, etc. the weight and recharge time of batteries can be a con versus hydrogen, making it a possible option despite the inefficiency.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,696 ✭✭✭ Markcheese


    While it has to be looked at for the nearish future , and if no one is the early adopter of the tech ,then it won't continue to develop ,I always get a bit worried about something like this .
    My fear is that, instead of improving the service offered , ( better routes,shorter journey times ,more frequent services) we just replace the existing buses with newer more expensive ones , budget spent on a single big project , and most people still commuting in diesel/ petrol cars ... But the few buses on the road emit water... hurrah ...
    The current euro 6 standard is pretty damn good , the new hybrids are even better .they're far from "perfect " but better than a city full of cars ( ice or electric ) ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,279 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    Do the electric buses over in Ireland/UK have an onboard Diesel engine for cabin heating? Over here they do. I suspect the same would be true for hydrogen buses given the strain electric heat would put on fuel cell output


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