FreeBSD - Is it worth it?

humbert

I want to use an old laptop as a home server. I want it to run a file server and maybe xbmc and perhaps a webserver for testing.

Ubuntu is a safe and sensible choice but I'd learn nothing.

I run gentoo on my laptop and like it but it takes more setting up that I want and I'm on mobile broadband so downloading packages regularly isn't appealing.

Arch linux has similar advantages and disadvantages. Downloading compiled packages would probably be quicker and smaller but at the expense of familiarity.

So I thought FreeBSD, I'd heard about it and know it as being secure and stable and used in business(not sure about that). So I installed it from usb and was transported back to a world of no frills text based installers(and not even a framebuffer :eek:).

Everything was going well, installing packages from ports until I tried plugging in a TP-Link USB Wifi dongle(laptop's wifi card is buggered). It didn't work so I looked into it and I'd need the ath9k_htc driver here.

Well, here in lies the difference. No bash, scripts failing. Make errors, gmake advised. Search the web, very very little community info available. (The Makefile is buggy also which is no fault of FreeBSD). EDIT: While the errors I was getting had nothing to do with the actual kernel, the fact that BSD isn't linux and doesn't share a kernel probably means I'm wasting my time trying to compile any linux kernel module...which pretty much means I'll have to use some flavour of linux.

So I'm wondering, persevere and get this installed then it's smooth sailing or am I just giving myself a headache so that I can use a slightly outdated system for the sake of stability and security beyond what I need?


Oh, I should say that installing the driver in Ubuntu or Gentoo would be a piece of cake.

syklops

Well it depends on how much time you want to spend on it. As you said you could use Ubuntu, everything would work but you would learn nothing. However, be prepared to spend a lot of time on BSD. I used to run it on a laptop, and I administered it in work. At least in work you get paid to spend hours on it. Depending on what stage of your life your in, you may not necessarily want to spend hours evenings and weekends, getting stuff working.

Would you consider Fedora? The new release is out shortly*. It, too is used in industry, under the guise of RHEL, and you will learn lots of relevant information. You can train for an RHCSA/RHCE on a fedora system, they are so similar.




If the guy who asked me for a disc is reading this, I didnt forget you just waiting for it to go RTM. If anyone else wants a disc let me know.

ntlbell

I think the old FreeBSD is for server use only is a bit old hat at this point.

I used it on the desktop since around FreeBSD 3.x which must be over 12 years or more at this stage after failing miserably with RH 5.x

You have things like PC-BSD desktopbsd etc which are I guess the equivalent of something like mint or ubuntu.

FreeBSD does require more time usually in the initial stages but will run like **** brick house from then on in.

Generally if you pay attention to the hardware requirements you shouldn't have many problems.

But if it's specifically for entertainment purposes and you don't want too much of a learning curve sticking with one of the other linux distro's might be a better option for you.

humbert

Hmm, I'll look into Fedora (I wonder could I use that as an excuse to start wearing a fedora, if so, I'm sold), CentOs might be ideal too.

With regard to Gentoo and downloading source; it's not the source I mind it's the rolling updates on shit bandwidth which, as I understand it, isn't the case with FreeBSD.

I see someone else having difficulty connecting a FTDI usb to serial chip to it, something else that's very easy in linux.


I have to say, getting it up and running was very straight forward and getting xorg working. Even building the kernel and installing it went without a hitch. I just hate the thought of wrestling with hardware.

Oh and there is an XBMC port!

Thanks for the suggestions!

ntlbell

The hardware problem is not a FreeBSD problem.

It's a lazy vendor problem

humbert

Went for CentOS. Installation went smoothly, there was an option to implement disk encryption which I liked.

Complied the Compat-Wireless drivers after an initial hiccup because I downloaded the wrong kernel-devel package and after that the latest RC1 version of the driver didn't compile for me but the latest stable version did.

XBMC compiled very smoothly after adding the EPEL repository and installing all the requirements. The android remote makes for a very sexy combination.

I've NFS up and running. It's the first time using it instead of Samba. Had some difficulty with mapping users using NFS4 but that was mostly ignorance on my part(I didn't know the idmap service should be running on the client side).

As for CentOS. It seems grand. Bog standard Gnome desktop and the yum package manager.

I was a bit surprised that the documentation for things like NFS focused largely on GUI based configuration tools, especially for an enterprise oriented system.


Next on the list is software raid but I don't have time to set that up at the moment as I suspect it wont be done and dusted in one evening.

schrodinger

"Is it worth it?"

Of course it is, you'll learn something new! FreeBSD assumes you know what you are doing and what you want to achieve. if you don't have this in mind before installing any operating system you're on the wrong path from the start. Ubuntu and similar distros attempt to setup what THEY assume to be what a user will need and is trying to do. All by happy coincidence. That's why a lot of people prefer a UNIX - they have to do it themselves.

humbert wrote: »

I want to use an old laptop as a home server. I want it to run a file server and maybe xbmc and perhaps a webserver for testing.

Ubuntu is a safe and sensible choice but I'd learn nothing.

I run gentoo on my laptop and like it but it takes more setting up that I want and I'm on mobile broadband so downloading packages regularly isn't appealing.

Arch linux has similar advantages and disadvantages. Downloading compiled packages would probably be quicker and smaller but at the expense of familiarity.

[...]

FreeBSD has binary packages.

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/packages-using.html

humbert wrote: »

[...]

So I thought FreeBSD, I'd heard about it and know it as being secure and stable and used in business(not sure about that). So I installed it from usb and was transported back to a world of no frills text based installers(and not even a framebuffer :eek:).

Everything was going well, installing packages from ports until I tried plugging in a TP-Link USB Wifi dongle(laptop's wifi card is buggered). It didn't work so I looked into it and I'd need the ath9k_htc driver here.

Well, here in lies the difference. No bash, scripts failing. Make errors, gmake advised. Search the web, very very little community info available. (The Makefile is buggy also which is no fault of FreeBSD). EDIT: While the errors I was getting had nothing to do with the actual kernel, the fact that BSD isn't linux and doesn't share a kernel probably means I'm wasting my time trying to compile any linux kernel module...which pretty much means I'll have to use some flavour of linux.

[...]

Glad you figured that one out But did you check the ath(4) man page in FreeBSD? Was the driver loaded? Or the HCL to see if it was supported rather than checking how Linux supported your card and looking for something similar in BSD ...

humbert wrote: »

[...]

So I'm wondering, persevere and get this installed then it's smooth sailing or am I just giving myself a headache so that I can use a slightly outdated system for the sake of stability and security beyond what I need?

Oh, I should say that installing the driver in Ubuntu or Gentoo would be a piece of cake.

Use what ever suits your needs and will be the simplest for you to manage. If you're not afraid of having to old your own hand and go through a learning experience than pick something new. Otherwise don't bother.

All I can say is that if you didn't spend time with http://www.freebsd.org/handbook before setting out, the install was always doomed.

I suggest you stay away from OpenBSD Although I find that even simpler than FreeBSD but let's please try and not start Yet Another Religious Distro War.

G'luck with CentOS. I find it's too far behind other distributions in terms of software versions and eventually you feel like you're stuck at the claws of a succubus that you were always unsure of from the beginning but the other girl seemed like too high maintenance but would have rocked your world!

humbert

schrodinger wrote: »

"Is it worth it?"

Of course it is, you'll learn something new! FreeBSD assumes you know what you are doing and what you want to achieve. if you don't have this in mind before installing any operating system you're on the wrong path from the start. Ubuntu and similar distros attempt to setup what THEY assume to be what a user will need and is trying to do. All by happy coincidence. That's why a lot of people prefer a UNIX - they have to do it themselves.

Maybe you're not familiar with Gentoo but you set that up to suit your purposes to an even greater degree, which is why I like it. I don't really agree that you need to have your desired 'achievements' in mind before starting either, sure it's expedient if you do, but the great thing about setting up your own system is trying anything and everything.

schrodinger wrote: »

FreeBSD has binary packages.

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/packages-using.html

I'm aware of that. I wasn't complaining about downloading source code for BSD, I was explaining why rolling updates on systems like Gentoo and Arch were undesirable for me.

schrodinger wrote: »

Glad you figured that one out But did you check the ath(4) man page in FreeBSD? Was the driver loaded? Or the HCL to see if it was supported rather than checking how Linux supported your card and looking for something similar in BSD ...

Yes, I checked to see if BSD supported the wireless card because I was using BSD and so it seemed sensible to check if BSD supported it first. It doesn't and development for that particular USB chip isn't planned as far as I've read.

schrodinger wrote: »

Use what ever suits your needs and will be the simplest for you to manage. If you're not afraid of having to old your own hand and go through a learning experience than pick something new. Otherwise don't bother.

All I can say is that if you didn't spend time with http://www.freebsd.org/handbook before setting out, the install was always doomed.

Again I feel compelled to point out that after setting up Gentoo, installing FreeBSD was a cakewalk. Overall I I found it very straight forward to use, but it simply doesn't support my wifi chipset.

schrodinger wrote: »

I suggest you stay away from OpenBSD Although I find that even simpler than FreeBSD but let's please try and not start Yet Another Religious Distro War.
G'luck with CentOS. I find it's too far behind other distributions in terms of software versions and eventually you feel like you're stuck at the claws of a succubus that you were always unsure of from the beginning but the other girl seemed like too high maintenance but would have rocked your world!

CentOS is working but it's not pretty and it's not fancy and feels more geared toward being a desktop system but I'll stick with it for the time being and perhaps grow to like it.

schrodinger

humbert wrote: »

Maybe you're not familiar with Gentoo but you set that up to suit your purposes to an even greater degree, which is why I like it. I don't really agree that you need to have your desired 'achievements' in mind before starting either, sure it's expedient if you do, but the great thing about setting up your own system is trying anything and everything.

I was a Gentoo user for a few years many moons ago but the USE flags for the Portage system became unusable after a while. I typically always use a Linsux on my laptops for the same reason you switched to it - wireless support; but I rock (Free|Open)BSD everywhere else.

humbert wrote: »

[...]

I'm aware of that. I wasn't complaining about downloading source code for BSD, I was explaining why rolling updates on systems like Gentoo and Arch were undesirable for me.
[...]

My misunderstanding then. Next time I read :

humbert wrote: »

[...]
I run gentoo on my laptop and like it but it takes more setting up that I want and I'm on mobile broadband so downloading packages regularly isn't appealing.
[...]

I will be sure to add the words "rolling updates" each time for clarity.

humbert wrote: »

[...]

Yes, I checked to see if BSD supported the wireless card because I was using BSD and so it seemed sensible to check if BSD supported it first. It doesn't and development for that particular USB chip isn't planned as far as I've read.

Hmm, no mention of it in 10-CURRENT either. Pity, BSD could use more wireless support although I've not had that many problems.

humbert wrote: »

[...]

Again I feel compelled to point out that after setting up Gentoo, installing FreeBSD was a cakewalk. Overall I I found it very straight forward to use, but it simply doesn't support my wifi chipset.

[...]

I think I took your comment "Search the web, very very little community info available." to be FreeBSD related rather than the community of the wireless driver. BSD is very well documented in either case.

humbert wrote: »

[...]

CentOS is working but it's not pretty and it's not fancy and feels more geared toward being a desktop system but I'll stick with it for the time being and perhaps grow to like it.

What about Scientific Linux ? I've tried it out before and found it a littler bit more robust than CentOS. But YMMV. CentOS gives you that warm fuzzy feeling that anything that claims to work with RedHat will work with CentOS, given the odd extra rpm.

syklops

Of course it is, you'll learn something new! FreeBSD assumes you know what you are doing and what you want to achieve. if you don't have this in mind before installing any operating system you're on the wrong path from the start.

Far be it from me to disagree, but if you cast your mind back to when you were first getting your feet wet with *nix, there is a period where you know what you want to achieve just not entirely sure how. During that period something like Ubuntu is completely the wrong thing to use as it does everything for you and you learn feck all. However, I am not sure if BSD is the right one as, as you say it assumes you know what you are doing. If the community is like what it was like when I was dabbling in it, it will assume similar, and requests for help will be greeted with "Read the man page or install ubuntu".

I can recommend the FreeBSD handbook to the OP. If you do decide to dip your toe in the water, that is a must have, and if you are prepared to spend enough time learning it, in the long run it is worth it. I don't know how much previous experience. I suppose what I am trying to say is, I would not recommend it as a first distro.

Considering where I work its not surprising I run Fedora everywhere, and RHEL where stability is an absolute must. On my personal box I run Fedora and I find it powerful and stable enough that I am not always fixing it, but still presents enough of a challenge that I have to engage some part of my brain to operate and administer it.

schrodinger

syklops wrote: »

Far be it from me to disagree, but if you cast your mind back to when you were first getting your feet wet with *nix, there is a period where you know what you want to achieve just not entirely sure how. During that period something like Ubuntu is completely the wrong thing to use as it does everything for you and you learn feck all. However, I am not sure if BSD is the right one as, as you say it assumes you know what you are doing. If the community is like what it was like when I was dabbling in it, it will assume similar, and requests for help will be greeted with "Read the man page or install ubuntu".
[...]

Those kinds of RTM comments are quite typical of the *BSD community but in most cases it is simply because the question being asked is answered clearly in the documentation or the man page but I've yet to find many BSD people who would just recommend using Ubuntu instead Oh and you should always feel free to disagree, in fact one can't post much on the Internet without disagreeing with someone else

humbert

I think the attitude is just because of the OS's heritage the people using it have a tendency to feel a little superior.

I'm a bit tempted to just get a new wifi card and go with BSD but real life is a bit hectic so it'll be a while before I have the time to replace a working CentOS.

The BSD documentation does look good which is one reason I'd be enthusiastic about giving it a go.


Out of curiosity, a couple of people have recommended Scientific Linux and I'm curious why? Is it that it's very similar to RedHat? I just assumed it was linux with some free science utilities?

schrodinger

From the Scientific Linux documentation:

The base SL distribution is basically Enterprise Linux, recompiled from source.

Our main goal for the base distribution is to have everything compatible with Enterprise, with only a few minor additions or changes. Examples of items that were added are Alpine, and OpenAFS.

[-0-]

I went to FreeBSD about a month ago thanks to schrodinger. I never looked back to be honest. It is brilliant. I love everything about it so far. I did an OS reinstall recently and it went very smoothly. The longest part of the restoration was uploading my backups. I have multiple daemons running in jails and I found a mountain of information online.

I don't think the community is that bad to be honest. I had issues setting up named at the start because I had not done it in years. schrodinger helped a little and I ended up figuring out what I was doing wrong.

Don't expect to be spoon fed and do a little research. I picked the OS because I wanted to learn something new, because it's secure & stable, and because the latest distro just came out in January.

ntlbell

The FreeBSD having a bad name is complete nonsense.

They're extremley knoweldable and helpful.

They just expect you to do a bit of ground work before asking a question.

glancing over a man page or providing some relative info logs is hardly aching to a superoirty complex.

[-0-]

My FreeBSD server became the victim of a large scale DDOS recently, and it took it on the chin without any impact. To say I was impressed is an understatement. It was able to discard most, if not all of the packets.

Dum_Dum

For me it's the barebones nature of a FreeBSD that appeals. No cruft, no doing things behind my back and an application of the principle of 'least surprise'.

druidhill

I'm a complete novice to this whole non Windows OS, but the one I like the most no question is OpenBSD. I read up quite a bit before I even switched on the PC though. It's the no-frills part that I liked.

I also got my laptop wireless card working on it quite easily too, however I'm quite happy to stick with Windows if a desktop is involved.

humbert

I went with Gentoo in the end. The fact that you can tailor it to do absolutely anything is the single greatest thing about *nix for me and Gentoo epitomises that.

I also find that Gentoo is much more stable these days. I haven't run into errors with an update in recent memory. Actually made a donation to the organisation which is very much a first for me.

Everything is working perfectly. Xfce, XBMC, wireless N USB stick, bluetooth audio interface, NFS.

Khannie

humbert wrote: »

I also find that Gentoo is much more stable these days.

Honestly....It would want to be. I had a massive pain in my face with it when I used to use it. Super fast distro and no question about it, but I found even trying to get simple things working (usb auto mount for example) painful. Kept it for about 2 years iirc and learned a lot with it, but wouldn't go back to it now.

humbert

Khannie wrote: »

Honestly....It would want to be. I had a massive pain in my face with it when I used to use it. Super fast distro and no question about it, but I found even trying to get simple things working (usb auto mount for example) painful. Kept it for about 2 years iirc and learned a lot with it, but wouldn't go back to it now.

Ah, well that's not really a question of stability. The 'shininess' it lacks is one the things that does tempt me away from it.

I use fluxbox/xfce and accept that it won't look as polished as a preconfigured distro.

I would never say(or at least I should never say) that Gentoo is better than X but the flexibility and learning opportunities(requirements) makes it right for me.

What I really meant is things like circular dependencies when upgrading or exotic compiler errors. A bit like existence proofs, I'm happier just avoiding them.