Can bars/clubs refuse passport as a form of identification?

Colibri

I was at a friend's going away party last month and when we went up to order some drinks, the barman told us he wasn't going to accept passport, only Garda ID as a form of identification.

Was this legal for him to do so?

I've also avoided some clubs/bars because of stories where they refuse passports. My Garda ID is coming soon, but in the meantime..

PammyD

I think everywhere is different.. Some wont accept passports or driving licences where others will.. I think its a joke being honest, imo i think whether its passport, age card or driving licence it should be accepted..

coylemj

They can refuse to admit or serve you for any reason other than the grounds for discrimination which are illegal such as gender, race, membership of the travelling community and sexual orientation.

So was it legal to refuse to accept a passport? Yes it was and if you turn up next week with a Garda ID and they also refuse to serve or admit you, that would be legal as well.

Delancey

Some licensed premises operators believe that if they are found to have served an individual who offered a fake licence or passport as proof of age then they have no defence if prosecuted whereas if a fake Garda ID was handed up then they have a defence.
How accurate this belief is I really can't comment on but it does exist.

Many establishment now have signs stating the only ID that will be accepted is the Garda ID.

Delancey

Carmen Mushy Savanna wrote: »

What law actually says they can do this. & could it be challenged, the only reason I would think nothing is done about it is because it only really affects the younger crowd.

I don't think it's a case of what law allows them to refuse certain types of ID but rather what law says that they can't.

hession.law

The general rule is that owners reserve the right to admit and after admitting also the right to refuse to serve. This can be applied any time at the owners discretion without a reason being given to a customer. If the owner gives a reason, shoes, drunk, or wrong ID as in this case the owner opens the door for his discretion to be challenged, that it is was not arbitrarily applied.

ResearchWill

The following case deals with the issue of Age Cards http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a3f34669680256ef3004a27de/491cd9c28228ffbe802576bf004b7705?OpenDocument

In a prosecution under section 31(1) of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1988, under the act as originally enacted there was a broad defense, same was amended, from the decision

"Subsection 4 of s. 31 of the Act of 1988, as enacted provided as follows:-

“In any proceedings against a person for a contravention of subsection (1) or (2) of this section, it shall be a defence for such person to prove that the person in respect of whom the charge is brought produced to him an age card relating to such person or that he had other reasonable grounds for believing that such person was over the age of 18 years, or, if the person is charged with permitting another person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor contrary to the said subsection (1) or (2), to prove that an age card was produced by the person concerned to that other person or that that other person had other reasonable grounds for believing as aforesaid.”

This subsection was amended by s. 14(1)(b) of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2000, (No. 17/2000), by the substitution of the following provision:-

“In any proceedings for a contravention of subsection (1) or (2) of this section, it shall be a defence for the defendant to prove that the person in respect of whom the charge is brought produced to him or her an age card relating to that person or, if the defendant is charged with permitting another person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor contrary to either of those subsections, to prove that an age card relating to the person to whom the intoxicating liquor was sold or delivered was produced by that person to that other person.”

So the only defense to a charge under section 31 1 is the production an Age Card.

The matter I believe is under appeal to the SC.

hession.law

26.—(1) A person who uses an instrument which is, and which he or she knows or believes to be, a false instrument, with the intention of inducing another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, or to provide some service, to the prejudice of that person or any other person is guilty of an offence.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.

This is from the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud) Act 2001, and it would apply to a fake driving licence/passport in this case.

Delancey wrote: »

Some licensed premises operators believe that if they are found to have served an individual who offered a fake licence or passport as proof of age then they have no defence if prosecuted whereas if a fake Garda ID was handed up then they have a defence.
How accurate this belief is I really can't comment on but it does exist.

Many establishment now have signs stating the only ID that will be accepted is the Garda ID.

ResearchWill

hession.law wrote: »

26.—(1) A person who uses an instrument which is, and which he or she knows or believes to be, a false instrument, with the intention of inducing another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, or to provide some service, to the prejudice of that person or any other person is guilty of an offence.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.

This is from the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud) Act 2001, and it would apply to a fake driving licence/passport in this case.

Yes the use of a fake passport is a serious offense, but it makes it a criminal offense for the person using the passport not the pub. On the other hand as in the Waxys case if a 17 year old produces a fake passport then the pub can be prosecuted for serving drink to a person under 18, where if a fake Garda national age card is produced then they can not.

ResearchWill

Delancey wrote: »

Some licensed premises operators believe that if they are found to have served an individual who offered a fake licence or passport as proof of age then they have no defence if prosecuted whereas if a fake Garda ID was handed up then they have a defence.
How accurate this belief is I really can't comment on but it does exist.

Many establishment now have signs stating the only ID that will be accepted is the Garda ID.

You are exactly right I put in a link to the case above in which the issue was raised. But simply if pub accepts Garda I'd card no prosecution as there is a defense in the act. Any other I'd can lead to prosecution.

jblack

Carmen Mushy Savanna wrote: »

What law actually says they can do this. & could it be challenged, the only reason I would think nothing is done about it is because it only really affects the younger crowd.

The law of contract, and as coylemj points out unless there is something that makes refusal illegal, then no there is no challenge.

Laissez-faire.

Procrastastudy

Urban Myth probably - but isnt there some issue in requesting to see a passport as that's not it's purpose?

If its given over when someone requests "photo ID" that's fine...

as I say probably an UM but if it rings a bell with anyone...

Del2005

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Urban Myth probably - but isnt there some issue in requesting to see a passport as that's not it's purpose?

If its given over when someone requests "photo ID" that's fine...

as I say probably an UM but if it rings a bell with anyone...

I doubt it as a PP is excepted in every other country in the world as a valid form of ID.

Which leads to the question how do 18-25ish foreigner holiday makers get served if they can't use their PP?

Procrastastudy

That not what I mean Del - Its fine if you PRESENT it as ID but can it be REQUESTED?

Carawaystick

Would the insistence of a garda age card from foreigners who would find it particularly hard to obtain, especially EU citizens living abroad.

An age card is only available to people with an irish address and with no non-std characters in their name.
Also EU identity cards are not accepted for this scheme.

This would seem to favour Irish citizens more than other EU citizens and be incompatible with the EU.

Also www.agecard.ie seems to imply there is no legal method for citizens between the age of 18 and 18 and 20odd days( depending on date of birth and the occurrence of the first full moon after the vernal equinox) to get an age card and no legal way for them to be able to present acceptable id. This seems to fall foul of article 40.1 equality before the law and article 40.3.1 I can think of a far easier method of a citizen applying in advance and collecting their age card from the garda station they applied for on or after midnight on their 18th birthday

ResearchWill

Carawaystick wrote: »

Would the insistence of a garda age card from foreigners who would find it particularly hard to obtain, especially EU citizens living abroad.

An age card is only available to people with an irish address and with no non-std characters in their name.
Also EU identity cards are not accepted for this scheme.

This would seem to favour Irish citizens more than other EU citizens and be incompatible with the EU.

Also www.agecard.ie seems to imply there is no legal method for citizens between the age of 18 and 18 and 20odd days( depending on date of birth and the occurrence of the first full moon after the vernal equinox) to get an age card and no legal way for them to be able to present acceptable id. This seems to fall foul of article 40.1 equality before the law and article 40.3.1 I can think of a far easier method of a citizen applying in advance and collecting their age card from the garda station they applied for on or after midnight on their 18th birthday

In relation to the EU point, if the person finds that the requirement causes problems with their treaty rights then maybe, but it is not a treaty right to go on holidays, the right to free movement is based on the right to work an economic right.

In relation to article 40.1 the important part is the second paragraph,

1. All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

This shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function.

In relation to article 40.3.1

1° The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.

Controling the access to alcohol is in the interests of society, so having to wait a few weeks to prove your age would not in my opinion be at issue with article 40.3.1, especially when you consider the verdict in the Waxys case which said a strict liability law in relation to the publican and age cards was constitutional.

Carawaystick

ResearchWill wrote: »

In relation to the EU point, if the person finds that the requirement causes problems with their treaty rights then maybe, but it is not a treaty right to go on holidays, the right to free movement is based on the right to work an economic right.

But if a person is resident abroad but works here, they are precluded from getting an age card as they don't have an address here.

ResearchWill wrote: »

In relation to article 40.1 the important part is the second paragraph,

1. All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

This shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function.

Could you outline the differences in capacity of a person 18 years old and 18&12days old? or in the case of people turning 18 in the spring, those whose 18th birth day falls in that time just before the first sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox, such that they may be precluded from getting an age card for some days longer than a person born at a time of year with no public holidays or fridays that just don't count as working days?

ResearchWill wrote: »

In relation to article 40.3.1

1° The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.

Controling the access to alcohol is in the interests of society, so having to wait a few weeks to prove your age would not in my opinion be at issue with article 40.3.1, especially when you consider the verdict in the Waxys case which said a strict liability law in relation to the publican and age cards was constitutional.

But this could be done pre-turning-18, and collection of the card could happen once you turn 18.
Either you're a citizen with the same rights as every other adult or the state can pick and choose how it deals with citizens arbitrarily. It is not at all a burden on the state, nor is it very impracticable to implement the scheme in a way that does not discriminate against citizens who have just turned 18.

Similarly, it is not impracticable to sync the system with national id cards of other EU citizens, if it's acceptable for every other identity related issue in the state, then it should be acceptable for purchasing a drink.

Procrastastudy

There's no state involvement here. I've every right not to serve you unless you prove to me you're over 18. I've also every right not to serve you if you dont have on a pair of purple trousers.

We're talking about having a drink, buying an adult movie or fags - note that other age restricted activities, such as joing the PDF, Gardai or voting the proof of age requiremnt is dealt with differently.

Okay I'll bite - what has an equinox got to do with it?

ResearchWill

Carawaystick wrote: »

But if a person is resident abroad but works here, they are precluded from getting an age card as they don't have an address here.

Could you outline the differences in capacity of a person 18 years old and 18&12days old? or in the case of people turning 18 in the spring, those whose 18th birth day falls in that time just before the first sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox, such that they may be precluded from getting an age card for some days longer than a person born at a time of year with no public holidays or fridays that just don't count as working days?


But this could be done pre-turning-18, and collection of the card could happen once you turn 18.
Either you're a citizen with the same rights as every other adult or the state can pick and choose how it deals with citizens arbitrarily. It is not at all a burden on the state, nor is it very impracticable to implement the scheme in a way that does not discriminate against citizens who have just turned 18.

Similarly, it is not impracticable to sync the system with national id cards of other EU citizens, if it's acceptable for every other identity related issue in the state, then it should be acceptable for purchasing a drink.

The Garda National Age Card web site does not say you must live here just be able to provide an address,

"All correspondence will be posted to the address you provided in your Application
The address provided must be within Ireland"

Such an address can be where you work, if you are not living here, but I dont really think there are many late teen early 20's working her from overseas, and not living here in other word commuting to say Berlin, and as any person from over the border can provide an address within Ireland don't think the guy from Newery would hav a problem having a pint in Dublin after his shift.

BTW for the law to fall foul of the treaty you would have to show that it was a barrier to the free movement of workers, don't think that would really work, say an italian who moved here could then say our restrictive opening hours are a barrier as at home he can buy drink 24/7.

There is no difference in capacity between a person aged say 17 years and 364 days and say 18 years and 1 day but our society has set arbatiary ages to purchase alcohol not drink it, there is no law broken in a 17 year old drinking in the privacy of their own home. For that society to set a rule that you must achieve the age of 18 before you can apply for the card does not in my opinion fall foul of the constitution. For example you can only vote when 18 but some people get to vote for the first time when they reach that age others have to wait a number of years to exercise that right.

In relation to age and drinking, my own view is that we have got the thing totally wrong in this country, in southern European countries it's not unusual to see teens having a wee drink in public and it's easy to purchase drink any time. But for some reason we have picked a more Victorian and restricted method, but I don't see how that method is unconstitutional, if you feel it is take a case, you could be right while the HC will go against you the SC may agree.

Del2005

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

That not what I mean Del - Its fine if you PRESENT it as ID but can it be REQUESTED?

Sorry my question was more into holiday makers and the fact that pubs are only serving alcohol on production of a Garda Age Card.

I know there is no right to buy alcohol, but like it or not some people come here to sample our pub culture or spend the day surfing/walking etc and want a hearty meal and drink at the end of the day.

What sort of message are we sending out to people, from countries where alcohol can be purchased from vending machines on the street, who are legally allowed to drink in our country and have ID that is excepted everywhere else in the world. But are told to PFO by a bar person as they don't have an ID which they can't get.

Ireland of the Thousand welcomes, but don't for the love of God try and enjoy our night life if you have the good fortune to look under 25.

Procrastastudy

My question wasnt worded very well Del tbh.

To be fair I think it's only certain pubs - probably with particular issue of it being a young crowd. Certainly not somewhere I can frequent anymore!

I'm a in The Brazen now and again - they don't seem have an issue and they get some pretty young tourtists in there. I have to admit if I was running Dicey's or some where like that I'd be very careful - I know a few 17 year olds (now 18) from my year that used to try and get in there.

I think they also use the ID thing as a good excuse not to get in the "you're way to pissed to come in here matey" argument.

Victor

ResearchWill wrote: »

The Garda National Age Card web site does not say you must live here just be able to provide an address,

"All correspondence will be posted to the address you provided in your Application
The address provided must be within Ireland"

And those workers that commute from Anglesey? Regardless, "Ireland" means the country, not the island.

Such an address can be where you work, if you are not living here

That varies from the preposterous to the offensive. And what if there is no fixed place of work?

don't think the guy from Newery would hav a problem having a pint in Dublin after his shift.

Well the matter seems to be mentioned regularly enough.

BTW for the law to fall foul of the treaty you would have to show that it was a barrier to the free movement of workers

While not persuasive, American courts seem to consider such matters part of inter-state trade, so it could be a barrier to the free movement of workers.

There is no difference in capacity between a person aged say 17 years and 364 days and say 18 years and 1 day

But 18 years and 20 days? There has to be some difference.

but our society has set arbatiary ages to purchase alcohol not drink it, there is no law broken in a 17 year old drinking in the privacy of their own home. For that society to set a rule that you must achieve the age of 18 before you can apply for the card does not in my opinion fall foul of the constitution. For example you can only vote when 18 but some people get to vote for the first time when they reach that age others have to wait a number of years to exercise that right.

Only that you can vote if there is a vote to be had. I've just turned 40, but I can't vote today. By your suggestion I should be able to vote today.

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

There's no state involvement here. I've every right not to serve you unless you prove to me you're over 18. I've also every right not to serve you if you dont have on a pair of purple trousers.

Not quite. Equal Status Act says otherwise.

We're talking about having a drink, buying an adult movie or fags

While they aren't fundamental or constitutional, they are still rights.

Okay I'll bite - what has an equinox got to do with it?

The office no doubt doesn't work public holidays or Good Friday. Eaater is set according to the moon.

http://www.agecard.ie/faqs.html

I have an old style Age Card, is it still valid?

Yes, there is no expiry date on your old card. However, the last old style “black” age card ceased production in March 2007 and many establishments no longer accept it.

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