Are Contractors Busy these days?

BONDIred

Just wondering if anyone is actually doing much these days, we are really struggling and if we do get the odd call then people are looking for unrealistic prices (We are not dear at all).

Cant see anything picking up soon esp with the Euro`s this summer, lots of people will be saving their money for that instead of home improvements!

billybunty

BONDIred wrote: »

Just wondering if anyone is actually doing much these days, we are really struggling and if we do get the odd call then people are looking for unrealistic prices (We are not dear at all).

Cant see anything picking up soon esp with the Euro`s this summer, lots of people will be saving their money for that instead of home improvements!

I think its swings& roundabouts. My husband was definately busier last year, but that was from may to december. Up until now this year has been quiet. Hes a handyman, does a bit if everything. Gets lots of repeat calls & referrals.

People will have €10k to spend no prob then quibble & haggle over the small stuff like €50-€70.

I do think theres light, i think small contractors need to advertise more, not necessarily paid for but there are many areas to do it free& also come up with an angle thats diff from your local competition. Thats what we did & it seems to be working.

JohnnieK

My situation is the opposite. I was mad busy coming up to Christmas and then it has continued on after. Not as busy but out everyday making a buck. I am loosing out al right to nixer kings coming in at low low prices but it's even Steven.

The only advertising I do is my website (which I put a lot of money into initially) and a good bit is referral.

I am hopeful that it continues but hell I'll probably do nothing for six months now after posting this:D:D:D

anheneti

JohnnieK wrote: »

My situation is the opposite. I was mad busy coming up to Christmas and then it has continued on after. Not as busy but out everyday making a buck. I am loosing out al right to nixer kings coming in at low low prices but it's even Steven.

The only advertising I do is my website (which I put a lot of money into initially) and a good bit is referral.

I am hopeful that it continues but hell I'll probably do nothing for six months now after posting this:D:D:D

I was the same mad busy up to march, changed the van (with the help of a scania) even got a newish car. I haven't worked since I got the van but its starting to pick up again. I am fairly middle of the road when it comes to pricing not that dear and overheads are low, but the next time i lose a job because i am undercut by someone getting a bonus of E188 a week I will report them.

kerryplumbing

I have been desperately quiet from Feb and March but fortunately these last few weeks have picked up somewhat. Like the rest of you the nixer kings seem to be taking a lot of the work as we cant compete with their unrealistic pricing structure.

Was so fed up last week that I even sent a letter of to my local TD complaining about the black economy and suggesting that they take their fingers out and do something about it as it is going to drive the legitimate contractors to the wall. Not holding my breath on getting a response!!!

BONDIred

kerryplumbing wrote: »

I have been desperately quiet from Feb and March but fortunately these last few weeks have picked up somewhat. Like the rest of you the nixer kings seem to be taking a lot of the work as we cant compete with their unrealistic pricing structure.

Was so fed up last week that I even sent a letter of to my local TD complaining about the black economy and suggesting that they take their fingers out and do something about it as it is going to drive the legitimate contractors to the wall. Not holding my breath on getting a response!!!

Good to hear there is work out there, it's actually my dad and brothers business and the have done very little, almost nothing the last few months. Trying to help them out with thinking of ways to advertise etc! It's very hard to compete with the niker kings, as someone else said ESP with their weekly "bonus".

Hopefully people will learn that buy cheap buy twice could very well ring through!

JohnnieK

The cheapest I've heard a boiler chop around hear was €1000. How a person who runs a legitimate company can compete with that I just dont know.

If it was me up against that particular job, I would have made it by business to find out who it was and the social and or revenue would have been informed.

Kerryplumbing is right, pester the local td and keep pestering. I have to laugh Pat Rabbit reduced the grant and said it will lead to 2000 new jobs in the industry, The grant enquiries have almost dried up so where are these 2000 jobs going to come from.

When I set up on my own I had visions of eventually hiring an apprentice and teaching him/her the trade and then hopefully have a small crew and growing. I wont be able to do that now as it is nearly impossible to grow because it is stagnant out there because people are looking for services and not willing to pay the price so I'm just covering a meagre wage and overheads and tiny profit for the company and this is not enough to hire.

JohnnieK

JohnnieK wrote: »

The cheapest I've heard a boiler chop around hear was €1000. How a person who runs a legitimate company can compete with that I just dont know.

If it was me up against that particular job, I would have made it by business to find out who it was and the social and or revenue would have been informed.

Kerryplumbing is right, pester the local td and keep pestering. I have to laugh Pat Rabbit reduced the grant and said it will lead to 2000 new jobs in the industry, The grant enquiries have almost dried up so where are these 2000 jobs going to come from.

When I set up on my own I had visions of eventually hiring an apprentice and teaching him/her the trade and then hopefully have a small crew and growing. I wont be able to do that now as it is nearly impossible to grow because it is stagnant out there because people are looking for services and not willing to pay the price so I'm just covering a meagre wage and overheads and tiny profit for the company and this is not enough to hire.

As a outsider:cool: I always found that commercial installations and installers are at a high standard with the installers being self motivated, where as in the domestic environment that same professionalism has been diluted, there are far to many tradesman who meet the man bit, but are lacking in the trade bit and they do it because they can, their customers get won over by the great price.

I would love to see a independent body set a standard of tradesmanship that customers and trades had easy excess to in disputes, it would give us a level playing field and prevent trades advertising silly prices for work that wouldn't meet a set standard, I can dream:D

BONDIred

gary71 wrote: »

As a outsider:cool: I always found that commercial installations and installers are at a high standard with the installers being self motivated, where as in the domestic environment that same professionalism has been diluted, there are far to many tradesman who meet the man bit, but are lacking in the trade bit and they do it because they can, their customers get won over by the great price.

I would love to see a independent body set a standard of tradesmanship that customers and trades had easy excess to in disputes, it would give us a level playing field and prevent trades advertising silly prices for work that wouldn't meet a set standard, I can dream:D

Good idea, do people like he RGII not provide this sort of comeback?

BONDIred

BONDIred wrote: »

Good idea, do people like he RGII not provide this sort of comeback?

I couldn't possibly comment.

oikster

The way domestic plumbing and heating is going nowadays it's bordering on commercial work. With the amount of control demanded by the clients,and rightly so, and the vast array of systems and inter linking of different technologies that has to be done ,I can see a time soon when a proper set of M+E drawings will be mandatory on all work. At the moment we are almost always design and install. We are all basically ending up with the same results,there or thereabouts,whereas with a proper course of planning and proper drawings properly qualified personnel would move closer to evening out the playing field when it came to getting good work. Pie in the sky I suppose.

oikster

oikster wrote: »

The way domestic plumbing and heating is going nowadays it's bordering on commercial work. With the amount of control demanded by the clients,and rightly so, and the vast array of systems and inter linking of different technologies that has to be done ,I can see a time soon when a proper set of M+E drawings will be mandatory on all work. At the moment we are almost always design and install. We are all basically ending up with the same results,there or thereabouts,whereas with a proper course of planning and proper drawings properly qualified personnel would move closer to evening out the playing field when it came to getting good work. Pie in the sky I suppose.

I'm a domestic heating engineer(gas), the approach to domestic heating design in the UK is similar to the commercial approach here, you wouldnt need M+E drawings as domestic installations are uniform once you've decided on type.

The approach taken in the UK is stringent, all aspects of a installation are broken down into sections, flueing, system controls, fused spur/electric's, efficiency etc.. you would need to pass a paper every five years to prove competency with each section. To do the job I'm qualified to do there is now 156+ papers that I would now have to sit to carry on doing the same job, Bord Gais was offered the ACS scheme by Corgi but declined as Irish gas installer wouldn't be able to work to their standard, not a belief I hold.

Every installation is reported to Gassafe at completion and paperwork is sent in, Gassafe will inspect some of your work without telling you:eek:, anything not matching currant standards can mean immediate suspension ie.. over or undersized boiler, I would love to see a system like that here to allow tradesmans to get on with it and show the fellas with all the gear and no idea the door.

The level of heating control looked for here has been commen place since the 60's in London, the SEI are the only body that has had an effect on boiler installations and I wonder how many up grades would of been done without the grant.

kerryplumbing

I totally agree with Gary - I am from the UK originally and spent over 20 years working in London. Stringent checks were carried out. But this was not just on Gas work but also on construction where the local building control officer would have to come out and sign off each stage of the work. To be perfectly honest we used to think of it as a pain in the proverbial but at least you would never see such issues such as Priory Hall.

I fully believe that it is time that we were all registered in much the same way as electricians so that all work has to be officially signed off. I know its all bureaucratic nonsense but we have to somehow control the number of opportunities for the dodgy installers

The installation of a unvented cylinder in the UK requires a G3 safety course where you see lots of cylinders blowing up :cool:, the G3 takes two days and must be redone every 5 years, every cylinder is registered then inspected by the local building officer, this all done due to past explosions and high levels of damage done by bad installations, In Ireland the regulations are ?? Um???umm.... sorry there are none:eek: except in Dublin the discharge pipe must terminate 1 inch above the ground:)

Even mains fed under sink water heaters have regulations, which if followed prevent serious water damage, most 99% fitted in this country do not take expansion in to account which unfortunately for the installer leads to a insurance payout:eek: if there is a issue.


I'll shut up now:D

quietsailor

gary71 wrote: »

I'll shut up now:D

I've a pretty good hunch I'm going to get attacked here for posting but I'm so sick of dodgy tradesmen that I had to write something.

Seriously, all ye tradesmen need to keep on and on about this subject. You'll get laughed at a lot (probably) and there will be complaints that your trying to somehow make the market into a "jobs for the boys" situation but really you won't be. If the people within the building industry push for proper training and oversight there is a much better chance it will come into force rather than it being forced onto the industry from outside.

Our tradesmen (and engineering) standards are abysmal here. Of the 10-12 tradesmen I've used in the last 13 years of owning my house I trust 4;
- One large company for gas boiler servicing work,
- one plasterer who's brother is a roofer so they work as each others labourer as the job requires
- One fitted kitchen installer
- One electrician

That's a 25% sucess rate or more importantly a 75% failure rate. I'm not pernickity, as long as the final job works correctly and isn't ugly I'm happy. I've ran 2 plumbers out of my house and refused to pay one electrician due to the shoddy work they did** and I'm not a qualified trades, I'm a Marine Engineer so I'm not aware of every last rule, I may have missed some of the bad work they did.

Those 4 above get my repeat work, I mightuse someone else if one of these 4 recommend them but I would watch that new tradesman like a hawk** and check their prices - especially for materials which I get the counter, NOT trade, price in the building suppliers.


There needs to be (and I include engineers in this as well);
a proper system of training.
continous assesment throughout our careers
be forced to go for training on new methods and rules so everyone is current.
A registered number for each tradesman & job so that any work carried out can be tracked and traced.


** = I can back up those statements and tell you what happened if you want but I'm keeping this post as short as possible, if anyone asks I'll post them up.

kerryplumbing

Well quiet sailor you wont get any arguments from me on your assessment - I agree totally with you. Proper standards is something that has to be brought into my trade - to many rogue traders out there for my liking

DoneDL

quietsailor, good post but the main problem is the lack of building control. Until there are sufficient inspectors with the proper authority to inspect and pass installations then the quality of work in this country will never improve.

quietsailor

Do you think we can ever have a proper regulatory authority? Most of the ones I can think of in Ireland are voluntary bodies

Alcohol - voluntary
Tradesmen- voluntary
Engineers- voluntary
Auctioneers- voluntary

It doesn't work, or at least not correctly, would the majority of tradesmen choose to bring in a regulatory body - say if a secret ballot was used?

JohnnieK

quietsailor wrote: »

Do you think we can ever have a proper regulatory authority? Most of the ones I can think of in Ireland are voluntary bodies

Alcohol - voluntary
Tradesmen- voluntary
Engineers- voluntary
Auctioneers- voluntary

It doesn't work, or at least not correctly, would the majority of tradesmen choose to bring in a regulatory body - say if a secret ballot was used?

I wouldn't be secret about it. I would welcome such things with open arms and anyone who knows me, knows that I have been saying this for years.
I spend a lot of my life now fixing other peoples F**K up's and a lot are simple mistakes that you learn in the first year of collage.

When you tell customers the errors of there previous plumbers way's and what it would take to rectify it, they look at you like your some kind of twat or you are trying to rip them off. I'm sick of getting tarred with the same brush.

quietsailor

quietsailor wrote: »

It doesn't work, or at least not correctly, would the majority of tradesmen choose to bring in a regulatory body - say if a secret ballot was used?

I would love it and again no secret ballot required.

quietsailor

JohnnieK wrote: »

I wouldn't be secret about it. I would welcome such things with open arms and anyone who knows me, knows that I have been saying this for years.
I spend a lot of my life now fixing other peoples F**K up's and a lot are simple mistakes that you learn in the first year of collage.

When you tell customers the errors of there previous plumbers way's and what it would take to rectify it, they look at you like your some kind of twat or you are trying to rip them off. I'm sick of getting tarred with the same brush.

You sound like how I feel about Landlords, I rent out one house and do my best to meet all the requirements but some people out there just take the piss and I'm lumped in with them, At this stage any one who comes on boards with a problem with a landlord my first advice is to shop them to the PRTB

rant over, sorry lads

JohnnieK

It's finally happened to me. I've only heard stories up till now, but it has happened to me today.

I do work for an Auctioneer who manages a number of houses for different Landlords (serious landlords not poor unfortunates not able to live in there own home any more).

Long story short I have inherited some badly maintained heating systems, one imparticular has damaged the boiler and to rectify would be a large bill.

Changing the boiler would be more cost effective. I gave the Auctioneer a reduced price for boiler changes after Christmas for all his Landlords.

He called today to say the Landlord has got someone cheaper. I thought €50 maybe.

For a new condensing boiler this contractor will do it for €1100 :eek:. He is coming over from the south side and he hasn't even see the set up. The condense will have to go into a purpose made soak away which was included in my price. Apparently this is an invoiced job too:eek:.

Now all independent lads hear on boards can you please have a go at doing the maths on this one because I'm bamboozled as to how he will make a profit or even a day or two's wage out of this, let alone diesel coming from the south side.:mad::mad::mad:

anuprising

I have heard something similar also .they were installing those band b vokeras buying them about €700 .

JohnnieK

anuprising wrote: »

I have heard something similar also .they were installing those band b vokeras buying them about €700 .

I dont get it. Why would some one install a band B boiler? We only have them all over hear because they are band in the UK.

kerryplumbing

That's just another sign of the way things are going - guys out to make a quick buck and taking advantage of an unassuming customer I am afraid. :mad:

sundula

I feel sorry for qualified, registered and insured contractors in all areas - Plumbing, Plastering, Electrical etc. How you guys are making any money now I dont know. I dont mind paying a fair price for work I know is right, done by a tradesman with qualificaions and insurance but alot of people I know want jobs done for nothing.

I know people in the electrical game and how they are stilling trading against the black economy is a miracle.

Government has alot to do with this, I know they have hammered contractors who tendered for local authority work in the S/E - €20.00 per hour for a wheeled digger with driver ?? Madness how is that guy to run a machine, tax, insurance,diesel, feed himself and then have money left for repairs and maintenance.

There is no doubt some contractors robbed people during the boom but the whole industry is paying for it now.

JohnnieK

sundula wrote: »

I feel sorry for qualified, registered and insured contractors in all areas - Plumbing, Plastering, Electrical etc. How you guys are making any money now I dont know. I dont mind paying a fair price for work I know is right, done by a tradesman with qualificaions and insurance but alot of people I know want jobs done for nothing.

I know people in the electrical game and how they are stilling trading against the black economy is a miracle.

Government has alot to do with this, I know they have hammered contractors who tendered for local authority work in the S/E - €20.00 per hour for a wheeled digger with driver ?? Madness how is that guy to run a machine, tax, insurance,diesel, feed himself and then have money left for repairs and maintenance.

There is no doubt some contractors robbed people during the boom but the whole industry is paying for it now.

Pay peanunts get monkeys . Or at least someone who will not come back when there is a problem.

Micky Dolenz

Things are quiet alright but they are quiet right across the board. The company I work for stopped advertising a couple of years ago and now depend mainly on repeat custom and commercial maintenance contracts.

We made the decision to cut our client numbers and would only work for the people who would be likely to pay. Thankfully our reputation is carrying us through the recession but of course we have not been left without scars.


I've been lucky enough to work all over the world with ,y trade and have found that our 4 year apprenticeship to be among the best. I worked in the UK and while all those things Gary spoke about are in place, it is still as bad as here for dodgy handymen having a go. Only the tradespeople who operate by the book take notice of regs and rules.

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I've been lucky enough to work all over the world with ,y trade and have found that our 4 year apprenticeship to be among the best.

I have no doubt your apprenticeship is the best in the world, but how many RGI's are plumbers? I havn't met many.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I worked in the UK and while all those things Gary spoke about are in place, it is still as bad as here for dodgy handymen having a go.

I couldn't agree more, you will always have idiots that can't be regulated for, which is handy as they make me look good;) the difference is these handy men are less likely to be card carrying tradesman.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Only the tradespeople who operate by the book take notice of regs and rules.

It's a lot harder to get away with things in the UK than here, I would void a warranty for any installation defects I would come across, ie sludge, wiring, auto filler, condense line etc.... I may reinstate later but the installer would get a tuff time from me, that's because there's a agreed standard, here there are no agreed standards.