800m fast 800m recovery

outforarun

Hi, little bit of debate over on my training log over my approach to intervals.

For my interval sessions I run 800ms fast (target 6:15 to 6:45 pace), then 800ms recovery at (target 8:00 to 8:30 pace). From my log:

"Say over a period of time I do 10 sessions of my non-standard intervals. On session 1 my average fast-interval is 6:40 pace and my average recovery pace is 8:25, by session 5 they've become 6:30 and recovery pace 8:15 and by session 10 they read 6:15 and 8:05. Surely this is progress and would be beneficial in a race environment?"

Just wondering if anybody thinks there is a different benefit in my approach versus a standard interval approach with shorter/slower recoveries. Or am I wasting my time with this sort of interval session? I find them useful because my running week sees me run my long runs the day after my speedwork and these 'softer' interval sessions seem to allow the two runs sit comfortably together.

Woddle

I don't think it's anything new. In the last issue of racing times they call it alterations and it's main advantage is

training your muscles to more effectively use lactate

They give an example of a 30 min 10k runner doing 800 on/off and his prescribed times are 2:24 (10k goal pace) and 2:42 (marathon pace).


Mark Hadley (long distance coach) calls them wave tempos and he has the paces set at 5% slower than half marathon pace and 3% faster than half marathon pace.

He thinks that it's great for mental training as your constantly staying focused with the changes in pace. He also says

these workouts help to increase the permeability of the cell membranes, helping them get rid of lactate and other waste products at a quicker rate.

He also suggests doing them only once every 3/4 weeks.

drquirky

Just had a brief look at your training log. I see two distinct issues.

1) Perhaps the biggest problem with your strategy is you seem to be doing the same workout over and over again. Not a good idea as it makes you very good at that one specific workout but not great at much else. That is evidenced by how your recovery time is getting faster in the 800's. Diverstiy of training is a key component to getting faster.

2) Those recoveries on the 800m workout are way way way too long. You are depriving yourself of a whole host of benefits derived from shorter recoveries. What you are essentially doing is training yourself to be good at running hard over 800m and then recovering at a pace 2 min/mile off this. You are getting faster as the session goes on because you are getting huge recovery so essentially starting each 800m at 0 like it was at the start of the workout. I would totally suggest you read Daniels or the like to get a bit of perspective on the point of training...

ecoli

With relation to Woddle's reference to alterations I think the distinction is that your reps are too fast and recovery too slow for you to get the prescribed benefits designed from an alteration session.

The idea behind this is lactate clearance. Basically they are designed to produce minimal amounts of lactate in the reps and the recoveries work on clearing this allowing your body to become more efficient at clearing lactate at Marathon pace.

The fact you are running around 45 secs slower in recovery than MP and running over a min quicker means you wont get this affect and as such the session listed is more in line with a standard interval session.

I also agree with quirky the recovery is way too long. If these are designed to be Vo2 max type sessions (3k-5k pace) you should aim to try have a recovery which is roughly equal in length to the amount of time taken in the rep.

If you want to change the dynamics and aim more towards strength I would aim for 10k pace and roughly 1/2-1/3 the time of the rep recovery


At the moment you will probably see some benefit simply because you are putting some variety in your training compared to just easy running. If you are worried about the session taking too much out of you for your long run move it to during the week. You seem to do 4 sessions a week so I would line them up as follows

Mon- OFF
Tues- Steady run
Wed - Recover
Thurs- OFF
Fri - Intervals
Sat- OFF
Sun - LSR

Or you can move thurs and fri around but this way you will get sufficient recovery around sessions

Woddle

ecoli wrote: »

With relation to Woddle's reference to alterations I think the distinction is that your reps are too fast and recovery too slow for you to get the prescribed benefits designed from an alteration session.

Ecoli totally correct on this and it's why I gave you

paces set at 5% slower than half marathon pace and 3% faster than half marathon pace.

and rather than considering this session an interval one it's actually closer to tempo work.

Is it the Cork marathon you're doing?
If so I think the session above is ideal every couple of weeks as a tempo type session but ecoli and drquirky are right in that you need a bit of variation and the interval work I think you'd benefit more from is 5x1k (10k pace) off 2 min jog (10 min pace and slower) or 6x 1 mile (10 mile race pace) off 2/3 min jog recovery.

What is your goal time for Cork?
and the session your doing now, what distance race pace is 6:15-6:45 and 8:00-8:30

outforarun

Thanks all for the feedback. Seems like I'm falling between stools with my interval format, not quite standard intervals not quite alterations, and so I'm losing out on the benefits specific to both of these.

I'm entering into a key period in my current training cycle and I'm reluctant to make any drastic changes just right now so I'll stick with my current format until after target race - Cork City Marathon. Then for my next races I'll start to introduce standard intervals with shorter recoveries. In the meantime I'll be content if both my fast and recovery 800 continue to get faster. Plus I enjoy the session as is.

Target time for Cork is 3:29:59. My PB is 3:41:30.
The 6:15 to 6:45 range is based on McMillan training plans supposing a 3:29 marathon time. The 8:00 to 8:30 range was plucked out of the air.