Texas Yanks Thomas Jefferson From Teaching Standard

RichieC

That's what he gets for coining "separation of church and state", I guess.

This, I've read could have a profound effect on the school curriculum of many parts of America due to the huge student market of Texas. A rather worrying idea. It's clear the knock on effect of parochial and insular teaching in schools has for generations on a population. The prevalence of Creationists in the US is testament to that.

Widely regarded as one of the most important of all the founding fathers of the United States, Thomas Jefferson received a demotion of sorts Friday thanks to the Texas Board of Education.

The board voted to enact new teaching standards for history and social studies that will alter which material gets included in school textbooks. It decided to drop Jefferson from a world history section devoted to great political thinkers.

According to Texas Freedom Network, a group that opposes many of the changes put in place by the Board of Education, the original curriculum asked students to "explain the impact of Enlightenment ideas from John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, Voltaire, Charles de Montesquieu, Jean Jacques Rousseau and Thomas Jefferson on political revolutions from 1750 to the present."

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/12/texas-removes-thomas-jefferson-from-teaching-standard/

Amerika

Conservative influences bad... Liberal indoctrination good?

sarumite

Amerika wrote: »

Conservative influences bad... Liberal indoctrination good?

So conservatives only influence whereas as liberal indoctrinate? Word games aside, I personally don't like the idea of ideologues (liberals or conservatives) interfering in the educational curriculum. I really don't see how this change improves educational outcomes.

Amerika

Hmmm… I don’t see how any school can teach about the Declaration of Independence without discussing Thomas Jefferson, and I seriously doubt they would.

I have two children enrolled in our progressive indoctrination camps, aka -- public school system. How about this… I ask my youngest how school was today. Her answer… "I didn’t learn anything… the teachers had to spend all their time with the dumbos." In a class of 20 students, they have 3 teachers. THAT’S’S 3 TEACHERS FOR 20 STUDENTS. And why… because they can’t establish class makeup anymore based on the learning/intelligence levels of students, as it would stigmatize the less intelligent students to be put into classes with other students of their own learning abilities. I kid you not! Therefore their answer is to put 3 teachers in one class. Unfortunately they now need to teach the entire class only to the learning ability of the lowest of students. The more intelligent students are bored senseless. And our school worries that their standards are falling in testing. IMO, this, and other liberal/progressive rules, are far more serious matters to our education system than if Thomas Jefferson is eliminated from one curriculum on "enlightenment."

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

Hmmm… I don’t see how any school can teach about the Declaration of Independence without discussing Thomas Jefferson, and I seriously doubt they would.

I have two children enrolled in our progressive indoctrination camps, aka -- public school system. How about this… I ask my youngest how school was today. Her answer… "I didn’t learn anything… the teachers had to spend all their time with the dumbos." In a class of 20 students, they have 3 teachers. THAT’S’S 3 TEACHERS FOR 20 STUDENTS. And why… because they can’t establish class makeup anymore based on the learning/intelligence levels of students, as it would stigmatize the less intelligent students to be put into classes with other students of their own learning abilities. I kid you not! Therefore their answer is to put 3 teachers in one class. Unfortunately they now need to teach the entire class only to the learning ability of the lowest of students. The more intelligent students are bored senseless. And our school worries that their standards are falling in testing. IMO, this, and other liberal/progressive rules, are far more serious matters to our education system than if Thomas Jefferson is eliminated from one curriculum on "enlightenment."

A bizarre OT rant there.

You think it's more worrying that teachers are doing their best not to leave children behind than a school board is selectively omitting pieces of history that might go against their world view?

Man, that's some leap.

Amerika

briankeating wrote: »

You think it's more worrying that teachers are doing their best not to leave children behind than a school board is selectively omitting pieces of history that might go against their world view?

Man, that's some leap.

That’s what you took from that?

I’ll quote you "Man, that's some leap."

RichieC

Amerika wrote: »

Hmmm… I don’t see how any school can teach about the Declaration of Independence without discussing Thomas Jefferson, and I seriously doubt they would.

I have two children enrolled in our progressive indoctrination camps, aka -- public school system. How about this… I ask my youngest how school was today. Her answer… "I didn’t learn anything… the teachers had to spend all their time with the dumbos." In a class of 20 students, they have 3 teachers. THAT’S’S 3 TEACHERS FOR 20 STUDENTS. And why… because they can’t establish class makeup anymore based on the learning/intelligence levels of students, as it would stigmatize the less intelligent students to be put into classes with other students of their own learning abilities. I kid you not! Therefore their answer is to put 3 teachers in one class. Unfortunately they now need to teach the entire class only to the learning ability of the lowest of students. The more intelligent students are bored senseless. And our school worries that their standards are falling in testing. IMO, this, and other liberal/progressive rules, are far more serious matters to our education system than if Thomas Jefferson is eliminated from one curriculum on "enlightenment."

What in Christ has that got to do with the price of cabbage? So you picked a lousy school for your kids. Cry moar in a relevant thread.

joseph brand

Amerika wrote: »

Hmmm… I don’t see how any school can teach about the Declaration of Independence without discussing Thomas Jefferson, and I seriously doubt they would.

I have two children enrolled in our progressive indoctrination camps, aka -- public school system. How about this… I ask my youngest how school was today. Her answer… "I didn’t learn anything… the teachers had to spend all their time with the dumbos." In a class of 20 students, they have 3 teachers. THAT’S’S 3 TEACHERS FOR 20 STUDENTS. And why… because they can’t establish class makeup anymore based on the learning/intelligence levels of students, as it would stigmatize the less intelligent students to be put into classes with other students of their own learning abilities. I kid you not! Therefore their answer is to put 3 teachers in one class. Unfortunately they now need to teach the entire class only to the learning ability of the lowest of students. The more intelligent students are bored senseless. And our school worries that their standards are falling in testing. IMO, this, and other liberal/progressive rules, are far more serious matters to our education system than if Thomas Jefferson is eliminated from one curriculum on "enlightenment."

Sounds like Santorum, Bachmann and Gingrich are culpable for holding back their intelligent classmates.

Also, how can you be fine with one of the 'Founding Fathers' being taken from the history books? Who's next?

Here we can clearly see the bad influence of religion on education. Forget the truth, let's pick and choose the parts that fit. It's disgusting.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html

Cynthia Dunbar, a lawyer from Richmond who is a strict constitutionalist and thinks the nation was founded on Christian beliefs, managed to cut Thomas Jefferson from a list of figures whose writings inspired revolutions in the late 18th century and 19th century, replacing him with St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin and William Blackstone. (Jefferson is not well liked among conservatives on the board because he coined the term “separation between church and state.”)

Cynthia is full of self importance.

Amerika

RichieC wrote: »

So you picked a lousy school for your kids.

In a way I have to agree with you. The progressive influences on our public school system do tend to make them lousy schools. And I guess by your thinking, if someone has a problem with Jefferson being eliminated from the curriculum of enlightenment, they could just "pick" another school to send their children to? So no problem eh?

Amerika

joseph brand wrote: »

Also, how can you be fine with one of the 'Founding Fathers' being taken from the history books?

Huh?

RichieC

Amerika wrote: »

Huh?

Did you even read the thread or just spin off into your unrelated rant?

Amerika

RichieC wrote: »

Did you even read the thread or just spin off into your unrelated rant?

I read what you wrote and I read the link, and even some of the other accompanying links. No where did I see it mentioned that any of it had to do with "separation of church and state." Do correct me if I’m wrong here. Now if you are the only one allowed to vary and editorialize on the matter of topic, then I guess you have a point.

RichieC

Amerika wrote: »

I read what you wrote and I read the link, and even some of the other accompanying links. No where did I see it mentioned that any of it had to do with "separation of church and state." Do correct me if I’m wrong here. Now if you are the only one allowed to vary and editorialize on the matter of topic, then I guess you have a point.

You're a dishonest poster. get out of my sight.

philologos

OP: It's certainly a wrong way of going about it. The honest thing to do would be to teach about enlightenment philosophy, but also not neglecting some of the massacres that occurred as a result of it in France. Impartiality and honesty in respect to history would be nice, not only in respect to the US curriculum, I think Irish history curriculum concerning the Reformation, and the varying uprisings between 1798 and 1921 being updated would be nice.

Amerika

RichieC wrote: »

You're a dishonest poster. get out of my sight.

Okay, as soon as you prove to me that this change in the Texas curriculum came about because of the influence of "Creationists," as you noted in the OP.

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

That’s what you took from that?

I’ll quote you "Man, that's some leap."

Ahem...

Amerika wrote: »

IMO, this, and other liberal/progressive rules, are far more serious matters to our education system than if Thomas Jefferson is eliminated from one curriculum on "enlightenment."

So yes. You clearly state that you're more worried about test scores than wiping history lessons clear of Thomas Jefferson.

RichieC

Amerika wrote: »

Okay, as soon as you prove to me that this change in the Texas curriculum came about because of the influence of "Creationists," as you noted in the OP.

Did I say that? read it again.

Amerika

briankeating wrote: »

So yes. You clearly state that you're more worried about test scores than wiping history lessons clear of Thomas Jefferson.

Actually, Thomas Jefferson is my third favorite US president, after George Washington and Abraham Lincoln (Ronald Reagan being fourth). I never said anything about wiping Jefferson from history lessons. I did state I thought there were more important matters facing our school system "than if Thomas Jefferson is eliminated from one curriculum on 'enlightenment.'" I would be horrified if our school system eliminated Jefferson from our history books. I believe our kids would be better served if they were taught more about our founding fathers, expecially regarding their thought processes in coming up with the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. Also, I think our kids will get plenty teaching about Jefferson even without him included in this one curriculum. What I took offense to was the use of "separation of church and state" and "creationists" as being major influences in the Texas decision on curriculm, in the OP. I hope that clears some things up.

Amerika

RichieC wrote: »

Did I say that? read it again.

I dunno... "The prevalence of Creationists in the US is testament to that" seems pretty clear to me.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

Conservative influences bad... Liberal indoctrination good?

Seperation of Church and state? Really Joseph? Really??

briankeating wrote: »

A bizarre OT rant there.

You think it's more worrying that teachers are doing their best not to leave children behind than a school board is selectively omitting pieces of history that might go against their world view?

Man, that's some leap.

Actually it's not... I agree with PJ if thats going on its absurd. When I went to US Public Schools I was part of the accelerated learning classes, and happily sponsor organized attempts to teach students at their ability levels. Though it should be pointed out Amerika:

Amerika wrote: »

In a way I have to agree with you. The progressive influences on our public school system do tend to make them lousy schools.

Wasn't No Child Left Behind a conservative, GWB thing?

Amerika wrote: »

Actually, Thomas Jefferson is my third favorite US president, after George Washington and Abraham Lincoln (Ronald Reagan being fourth). I never said anything about wiping Jefferson from history lessons. I did state I thought there were more important matters facing our school system "than if Thomas Jefferson is eliminated from one curriculum on 'enlightenment.'" I would be horrified if our school system eliminated Jefferson from our history books. I believe our kids would be better served if they were taught more about our founding fathers, expecially regarding their thought processes in coming up with the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. Also, I think our kids will get plenty teaching about Jefferson even without him included in this one curriculum. What I took offense to was the use of "separation of church and state" and "creationists" as being major influences in the Texas decision on curriculm, in the OP. I hope that clears some things up.

Unfortunately though it's not that far off the mark, given that just last year we were having this exact same discussion, only about Evolution and Intelligent Design curriculum, again, revolving around the TSB.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

Wasn't No Child Left Behind a conservative, GWB thing?

First, George W Bush was no conservative. Second, The bill was proposed by President George W. Bush, and coauthored by Representatives John Boehner (R-OH), George Miller (D-CA), and Senators Ted Kennedy (D-MA) and Judd Gregg (R-NH).
(here's proof LOL)




I like NCLB. I thought it was about time we got serious and got some level of control on public education through annual testing, annual academic progress, report cards, and teacher qualifications (man... do the teachers hate that one!). Yeah the democrats complained the funding increases were not enough (but there never seems to be enough government spending to make them happy), even though we spend more than any other country in the world per student I believe. Heaven’s forbid we want our children educated enough (especially in math and science) to meet the challenges of the world for all the money we already spend.

hooradiation

Amerika wrote: »

First, George W Bush was no conservative.

I hear he's not a true Scotsman either.

Amerika

hooradiation wrote: »

I hear he's not a true Scotsman either.

Is that some sort of Off-Kilter joke? :pac:

Manic Moran

I'm not entirely sure I see the problem here.

The American education system is somewhat deservedly mocked for being rather Ameri-centric. Dropping an American from a "world history section devoted to great political thinkers" and "replacing him with St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin and William Blackstone." who are, if memory doesn't fail me, an Italian, a Frenchman and an Englishman, and all of whom are fairly significant names, strikes me as being a very positive move.

It's not as if Jefferson is being removed from the domestic history book, is it? The section on the American Revolution?

Also, isn't the article two years old anyway?

NTM

Overheal

Well now that you mention Calvin, thats pretty much where the whole separation of Church and State began to originate anyway.

SteveS

Manic Moran wrote: »

Also, isn't the article two years old anyway?

NTM

Good point. Supposedly, Texas has a huge influence on what goes into textbooks because of their large market share, but there are numerous publishers. I haven't seen anything on this since 2010, so I wonder if Jefferson really got demoted in any other state besides Texas.