Lowerback and leg pain

Bigtoe107

Posting this here because I figure one of you guys will know somebody to help. Basically I have had lower back and leg pain for about 2 years now and have been sent from pillar to post with different physios and treatments. The pain originally started in my hip when I was running but gradually got worse. I have had an MRI on my back and I have a disk out which is pressing on the nerve. I'm just wondering could anybody recommend a Good physio/ chiropractor/ sports injury specialist around Kildare or Dublin or Laois.

Also has anybody any experience with orthopaedics, can you run with them etc.

Not looking for medical advice just somebody to point me in the direction of people who know what there talking about in relation to sports injuries.
Also if anybody had any similar experiances and were cured that would be nice as I'm feeling quite down in the dumps now Didn't think 21 year olds were affected by chronic back pain

ecoli

Few recommendations I would give to you who are very highly rated by myself and people I train with All have a good background in treatment of runners:

Anthony Geoghegan (Carlow but definitely worth the trip)
Ciaran McDonagh (Dublin)
Vinny Mulvey (Dublin)


In terms of people with experience in orthopedics Mike Davis of Well shod in Monasterevin is the man to go see. You may have to wait to get an appointment (usually takes a couple of months to get one) but he is definitely worth it from anyone I have known that has went to him


Hope this info helps

Bigtoe107

Thats exactly what I was after thank you. Ill get on to Anthony and see what he has to say.

On a side note can anybody reccomend any crosstraining to do that is ok for sciatica sufferers. I'm starting to put on a few pounds now that i'm not running .

kennyb3

With a disc issue i'd strongly suggest staying away from the usual suspects. I would go see a sports physician or other consultant at the SSC or similar and get specialist treatment. This isnt the sort of thing to go messing about with.

I personally wouldnt go to a physical therapist or similar for such an issue (which unfortunately it sounds like you have already).

Bigtoe107

Yeah I have been to two separate physio's; one was good but the results didn't last, the second one which I seen through the public system was useless and actually made things worse. I knew in my head the exercises were the wrong ones but stupidly I still done them.

What's the SSC?

Younganne

Sports Surgery Clinic in Santry

http://sportssurgeryclinic.com/

kennyb3

Bigtoe107 wrote: »

Yeah I have been to two separate physio's; one was good but the results didn't last, the second one which I seen through the public system was useless and actually made things worse. I knew in my head the exercises were the wrong ones but stupidly I still done them.

What's the SSC?

http://www.sportssurgeryclinic.com/about/surgeons_physicians/physicians.html#conSporPhy

I'd go to a physical therapist any day for a muscle issue, and even minor tendon stuff but when it comes to discs, your back, major tendon issues or other more complex issues i'd definitely go see a specialist. These guys can read your MRI in the context of having examined you and your case history and imho you ll get no better diagnosis.

Bigtoe107

Grand ill get on to them so (see if I can afford it first) thanks for all the information. Hopefully they can sort something out for me. Is there any other types of training people in my situation do? Like swimming etc

thebestone

looking for advice ... please. i had microdiscectomy last year for herniated disc at two levels. i had relief of leg pain but continue to suffer with back pain - due to degenerative back disease im told, and its really interfering with my running (dont say give it up please). occasional sciatica too depending on well i stretch and massage back muscles. i can cope with this but its the feeling of lack of power in my leg when i get to a certain distance or speed in my run.
has anyone been to pain specialist in santry? has anyone had facet joint or nerve block? any positive effects on rhysolosis? im blue in the face trying to get safe and effective options for this..
all help appreciated . :mad::)

ecoli

Mod: Just gentle reminder recommendations of professionals to go see is allowed we are not permitted to give medical advice such as diagnosis

belcarra

Just a case history of my situation in early 2011. It may be useful in the context of the thread.
In January i was in huge pain from my lumbar region with nerve pain through my upper left leg. I could not stand or walk for more than 3-5 mins without having to sit down again to relieve the pain. Obviously this meant I was unable to do much running/football. I had visited Clane Hospital for an MRI and they diagnosed me with a bulging disc (L4/L5 region).

I had previously visited SSC and was seen by a physio who advised a bunch of exercises, mainly to strengthen core muscles/trunk, etc. I paid lip service to the advice (Wasn't very clever regarding the causes of the pain) and chose to go to a chiropractor instead.

The chirpopractor lasted in total about 15 sessions, so was very expensive. But within the first couple of sessions I felt I had improved from about 10% to maybe 40%. After this I changed my workstation in my office and raised my monitor about 7 inches so it was now at my eyeline level. I also added a lumbar support to my chair. At this time I was feeling around 75%. Not sure which had most effect in getting me to 75% though.

Only then did I go back to the core exercises which the physio recommended in the beginning and within a few weeks of doing these i was back again at around 90%-100% which allowed me to come back running about this time last year.

Any time since that I feel my back getting sore on a run I can always correlate it with me not having done my core exercises in a few weeks and this focuses the mind once again.

So, if i was to do it all over again I would:

1. Ensure my work station is correct and comfortable (No Cost/High benefit)
2. Do basic core exercises such as the Plank/crunches/leg raises, etc.
3. If I was still not right, visit a good physio and actually listen to them and trust that they know what they are doing!
4. Only then, go to the chiropractor.

This worked for me anyways!

token56

Just a bit of background on my experience. Like the OP I had a herniated disk when I was around 20-21 and couldn't run as a result. I know its very disheartening because it just seems like you'll never get back to running.

In my case I required surgery to get everything corrected because physio simply wasn't successful. The good news is that I was able to get back running and have completed races since pain free but I've suffered other injuries which have prevented me from running for the last year and half or more.

So just a few bits of advice from my experiences. Even if you are not running doing core work and making sure the muscles in your back are strong is vital. It might not solve to issue not whatever course of action is required having a strong core and a strong back will help with your recovery.

If you can swimming is a very good exercise to help (or even walking/jogging in the pool as I had to do). It helps your back get stronger while giving you the cardio workout. Also be strict with doing it, get into a proper routine of doing core work consistently otherwise you wont see any lasting improvements.

Identify what actually caused the injury in the first place. Things like this shouldn't just happen, there is usually an underlying issue that has been there for a while. In my case it was down to my gait and issues with inflexibility caused by differences in leg length which I never knew about. I'd also been misdiagnosed by a previous physio and following their advice was one of the reasons I ended up needing surgery. I'm still trying to get this sorted, and even though its over 3 years since I've had my surgery and I'm without sciatica I'm still not running consistently because I haven't been able to get the underlying cause sorted.

Lastly stay positive, its very difficult to do if you are in anyway used to consistent training and then suddenly it all stops. But try other activities like swimming, possibly even cycling although depending on the pain in your back etc this may not be possible. They will certainly help.

Best of luck to anyone dealing with such issues because I know they are incredibly frustrating at the best of times.

Bigtoe107

token56 wrote: »

Just a bit of background on my experience. Like the OP I had a herniated disk when I was around 20-21 and couldn't run as a result. I know its very disheartening because it just seems like you'll never get back to running.

In my case I required surgery to get everything corrected because physio simply wasn't successful. The good news is that I was able to get back running and have completed races since pain free but I've suffered other injuries which have prevented me from running for the last year and half or more.

So just a few bits of advice from my experiences. Even if you are not running doing core work and making sure the muscles in your back are strong is vital. It might not solve to issue not whatever course of action is required having a strong core and a strong back will help with your recovery.

If you can swimming is a very good exercise to help (or even walking/jogging in the pool as I had to do). It helps your back get stronger while giving you the cardio workout. Also be strict with doing it, get into a proper routine of doing core work consistently otherwise you wont see any lasting improvements.

Identify what actually caused the injury in the first place. Things like this shouldn't just happen, there is usually an underlying issue that has been there for a while. In my case it was down to my gait and issues with inflexibility caused by differences in leg length which I never knew about. I'd also been misdiagnosed by a previous physio and following their advice was one of the reasons I ended up needing surgery. I'm still trying to get this sorted, and even though its over 3 years since I've had my surgery and I'm without sciatica I'm still not running consistently because I haven't been able to get the underlying cause sorted.

Lastly stay positive, its very difficult to do if you are in anyway used to consistent training and then suddenly it all stops. But try other activities like swimming, possibly even cycling although depending on the pain in your back etc this may not be possible. They will certainly help.

Best of luck to anyone dealing with such issues because I know they are incredibly frustrating at the best of times.

Really appreciate this, your situation seems exactly like mine and its nice to know that I won't always be a cripple. Can I ask who figured out that it was underlying causes like leg length differences which caused your problem. The reason I ask is I'm pretty sure one of my legs is shorter than the other and my gait is messed up due to martial arts so it might help if I can fix this.

Also thanks everybody for the replies, I don't want medical advice just general advice and examples of other peoples experiences.

belcarra

Bigtoe107 wrote: »

Can I ask who figured out that it was underlying causes like leg length differences which caused your problem. The reason I ask is I'm pretty sure one of my legs is shorter than the other and my gait is messed up due to martial arts so it might help if I can fix this.

Something similar with me...
The chiropractor diagnosed(?) me as having one leg shorter than the other and it was only after he said it that I remembered I always wear/tear the bottom of my jeans leg on one side much worse than the other and realised it was because I was treading on the bottom of the 'shorter leg/longer jean leg' and not the other leg!
I think it's pretty common to have one leg slightly longer than the other but obviously if you have extreme differences you will 'run' into issues!!

Bigtoe107

belcarra wrote: »

Something similar with me...
The chiropractor diagnosed(?) me as having one leg shorter than the other and it was only after he said it that I remembered I always wear/tear the bottom of my jeans leg on one side much worse than the other and realised it was because I was treading on the bottom of the 'shorter leg/longer jean leg' and not the other leg!
I think it's pretty common to have one leg slightly longer than the other but obviously if you have extreme differences you will 'run' into issues!!

Just looked at my jeans, the leg that I have problems with is worn at the bottom the other is fine. Its food for thought anyway as I'm going to look into getting orthopaedics

JohnnyCrash

Bigtoe107 wrote: »

Just looked at my jeans, the leg that I have problems with is worn at the bottom the other is fine. Its food for thought anyway as I'm going to look into getting orthopaedics

Heres more food for thought.Have sciatic like symptoms close on a year now.Told by the physio i had a leg length discrepency.What was causing it was tight glutes/hammys which were pulling everything up.Showed me some stretches to lengthen the muscles/leg. Upshot-whilst I still havnt fully resolved the issue,I can control it with plenty of stretching and core work and it enables me to get in 30-35 mpw:D

Larry Brent

thebestone wrote: »

looking for advice ... please. i had microdiscectomy last year for herniated disc at two levels. i had relief of leg pain but continue to suffer with back pain - due to degenerative back disease im told, and its really interfering with my running (dont say give it up please). occasional sciatica too depending on well i stretch and massage back muscles. i can cope with this but its the feeling of lack of power in my leg when i get to a certain distance or speed in my run.
has anyone been to pain specialist in santry? has anyone had facet joint or nerve block? any positive effects on rhysolosis? im blue in the face trying to get safe and effective options for this..
all help appreciated . :mad::)

It appears your issue is the lack of power. This is due to impaired nerve function. Facet joint blocks and nerve blocks are pain relieving procedures so will not improve nerve function. Rhysolisis is a last ditch pain relieving procedure so again won't solve your nerve function problem.

I'd advise to carry on running. The weakness may be a permanent minor issue or may gradually improve with time. So effectively I'd ignore it as long as it's not getting worse. Running by improving your general health and circulation may well be the best thing you could do.

Don't focus on the pain (as you are commendably doing 'I can cope with this') and as long as the weakness isn't worsening (extremely unlikely) getting out enjoying your running, gradually progressing distance and speed and I'd say it won't be long before you feel perfect.

Ciaran O'Lionaird had similar trouble with his back and look at him now. Also there's a girl in US was advised not to run due to back problem and recently ran 33mins for 10k so you can run well with low back issues.

Best of luck.

token56

Bigtoe107 wrote: »

Really appreciate this, your situation seems exactly like mine and its nice to know that I won't always be a cripple. Can I ask who figured out that it was underlying causes like leg length differences which caused your problem. The reason I ask is I'm pretty sure one of my legs is shorter than the other and my gait is messed up due to martial arts so it might help if I can fix this.

Also thanks everybody for the replies, I don't want medical advice just general advice and examples of other peoples experiences.

Probably a bit more information than you need but I'll give you a run down of my story. Before I was ever diagnosed with a herniated disk and before I developed sciatica I was having other problems with my knee and hip and my right side. I went to see a physio in my local area who after a while recommended me orthotics and put a heal lift on one side saying one leg was acting shorter than the other. I should clarify this by saying technically in terms of bone structure I dont think there is actually a significant difference in the length of my legs but my pelvis had become slightly imbalanced and rotated so that one leg isacting shorter when I walked etc. I think its known as Anatomic Leg Length Inequality.

I persisted with his treatment and with the orthotics but the problems persisted until I developed the sciatica, at that point I was switched to another physio in the same practice because the original physio wanted a different opinion and was more of less out of ideas. This probably should have been a warning to me at the time to find someone new anyway but I was youngish and naive. I was referred by the second physio to a GP who specialised in sports injuries after I started developing back pain also. An MRI ordered by him showed up the herniated disk. I was given a referral by him to a neurosurgeon who specialised in back problems and met with him once.

However I was uncomfortable with the idea of surgery at the time so decided to get the opinion of a third physio. After a lengthy period of mostly ineffective treatment I decided to go back to the surgeon again who said he thought surgery was my only option to get rid of the sciatica and have a chance of being active in the way I was before. So I took the plunge and went for it. Everything with the surgery went perfectly and after a couple of months the sciatica had more or less went and I was doing work in the pool.

After the whole experience I wasn't sure what to do to get back to running and decided to try do it without the orthotics I originally got from the first physio (pretty naive/stupid). After a period of successful training and completing one or two races I start developing problems again and after some research into names went to see Michael Davis of wellshod (his name has been mentioned here a bit I think). Had to wait a bit to get finally see him but went through my whole history with him and showed him my original orthotics and he was fit to burn them. Said they were terrible and the lift was actually put on the wrong side. So it had basically aggravated everything quicker than probably would have without it. He did say one leg was acting shorter just the original physio put the lift of the wrong orthotic.

Since then I've been using orthotics made by him. They are miles apart from my original pair in how they are made and he can alter them as is necessary very easily. He's had to do this for me a couple of times as we try to find the fit for me and my problems. Obviously I still have the original problems which developed over time, i.e. my pelvis is still misaligned and I'm working on that through exercises but change is slow unfortunately and stopping me from getting back running properly.

It's been a long journey for me that is still on going. I've made a lot of mistakes and learned a lot as a result. I just hope that some of the advice I can give based on the mistakes I made might prevent someone from going through the same experience as me.

If you are worried about things like imbalances, whether in leg length or something else a good tell if something is significantly unbalanced is to look at the sole of runners or the foot ware you use everyday. Comparing the right and left if there is massive differences in the the wear of the sole in terms of position its a good indicator something is off in terms of how you are landing and pushing off your feet. Its not going to tell what is causing it obviously but at least you might be able to help you in narrowing the cause.

My advice would be to first find a good physio to try identify the cause rather than finding one who just wants to treat the symptoms. If you can identify the cause work with them as best you can and hopefully you can treat your problems without something like surgery.

Bigtoe107

token56 wrote: »

Probably a bit more information than you need but I'll give you a run down of my story. Before I was ever diagnosed......

Again very similar to mine I was told by a friend of mine that my pelvis looked rotated. I was running at the time and was getting pain in my upper right hip. Over time the pain went down my leg, so I went to a doctor, who sent me to the local physio. She was pretty useless and ran a kind vibrating thing on my back to ease pain, she also had me doing extensions which I think made things worse.

Anyway after a while she told me I would need to see her more than one a week and until I could do this there was nothing she could do. I then went to another guy, on recommendation of a pt I know; he was pretty good in the sense that my pain went away when after the sessions but he did not even try discern the cause. I went back running and within a few weeks the pain was as bad as ever. I percisted and kept up my streching I even bought new running shoes and had my gait analysed in Amphibian King. The pain simply got worse until it was actually difficult to walk; I went to the doctor again and he sent me for an Mri (2 years later), results came back that I had a herniated disc on L4+L5 and chronic degeneration due to it being out so long.

That leaves me where I am now, the doctor suggested surgery but to be honest I only want surgery if I'm sure nothing else will work. My father had/has a bad back but lately he is grand even manages to run about 7-10k 3 or four times a week. He seen a chiropractor but again their medical history is debatable. I suppose a good sports related physio/surgeon is the way to go, I just took a look at my shoes there and their is way more wear on my left shoe so that is a definite indicator.

I'm not sure whether this post will even interest you all but still this is where I am coming from and tbh this thread has helped a lot and I can't thank you enough for sharing your own experiences.

padgo

Yes i have a similar issue. i went to Dr Ruth Gregory in the Kilcullen Chriopractor clinic. dnt think she is on the web ill try find u a number

kennyb3

@ bigtoe, go see a consultant or even a second and see what each suggests. This is your health and life and its clearly affecting you hugely do it sooner rather than later.

Physios by their nature will want to try rehab you with stretches and surgeons will obviously want to operate.

I think you should get a couple of opinions from these highly qualified individuals, decide on a definitive course of action and follow it through and see where it gets you.

thebestone

Larry Brent wrote: »

It appears your issue is the lack of power. This is due to impaired nerve function. Facet joint blocks and nerve blocks are pain relieving procedures so will not improve nerve function. Rhysolisis is a last ditch pain relieving procedure so again won't solve your nerve function problem.

I'd advise to carry on running. The weakness may be a permanent minor issue or may gradually improve with time. So effectively I'd ignore it as long as it's not getting worse. Running by improving your general health and circulation may well be the best thing you could do.

Don't focus on the pain (as you are commendably doing 'I can cope with this') and as long as the weakness isn't worsening (extremely unlikely) getting out enjoying your running, gradually progressing distance and speed and I'd say it won't be long before you feel perfect.

Ciaran O'Lionaird had similar trouble with his back and look at him now. Also there's a girl in US was advised not to run due to back problem and recently ran 33mins for 10k so you can run well with low back issues.

Best of luck.

Thanks for the explanation of the nerve blocks and rhysolosis. Im so frustrated i would try anything but at the same time i dont want to have any proceedure that is not appropriate. (ie, i want to continue to train , not just get rid of pain and retire). Thats why i am not anxious to get advice from a "non-sports-specific" medical professional (i have done that for long enough!). It can be difficult to find someone who "understands" the desperation of the athlete!!
Thanks again for the encouragement... it makes such sense.