Air crash investigation - any fans?

JoeA3

hi guys,
I browse on this forum the odd time and I've never seen any threads here commenting on National Geographic's Air Crash Investigation TV docu-series. I always try to catch it when its on and there's a new series running at the moment, I really find it fascinating stuff!

I'm wondering if people on here with real flying experience watch it, what they think of it, is it generally accurate in its representation of what goes on in the cockpit, or is it there a heavy dose of dramatization for "entertainment" value?

tippilot

JoeA3 wrote: »

hi guys,
I browse on this forum the odd time and I've never seen any threads here commenting on National Geographic's Air Crash Investigation TV docu-series. I always try to catch it when its on and there's a new series running at the moment, I really find it fascinating stuff!

I'm wondering if people on here with real flying experience watch it, what they think of it, is it generally accurate in its representation of what goes on in the cockpit, or is it there a heavy dose of dramatization for "entertainment" value?

Generally a good show. Flight deck mock ups they use are mostly not close to the actual aircraft in question. Headsets used on 25 year old crashes sometimes look too modern. The RT can also be a bit off as well. Runway Thirty four instead of Runway Three Four for example.

St. Leibowitz

Sometimes they use video of the wrong airplane type, which is a major bugbear of mine, and for a supposedly thoroughly researched program is unforgivable IMO. Also, i find the way the dramatisation of cockpit interaction is done can be cringing at times ... pilots smiling across at each other like lovestruck teens has been my impression on a couple of occasions, or quizical expressions that a silent movie actor would be proud of. On a couple, the tension buildup becomes almost comical.

But generally, I enjoy it. It's nice that they're now coming up with more "obscure" accidents that I don't immediately know the details of, having covered most of the majors in the first few series.

JoeA3

Thanks guys.

A few episodes that really stood out for me were:

- The Russian Airbus where the pilot allowed his son sit in his seat to play with the controls :eek:
- The mid-air collision of the plane carrying all those school children and the DHL freighter
- The Tenerrife disaster

And then there were ones where the pilot saved the day through incredible skills, such as
- the Hudson River landing
- the BA 747 that flew into the ash cloud and lost all engines
- an incident (can't recall exact details) where a plane ran out of fuel over the ocean and the pilot managed to land with no engines


I've noticed the same actors appearing across a few episodes too, either as pilots or ground controllers! The narrator is always at pains to remind us of the importance of the voice/data recorder too in every single episode which is a bit repetitive.

The interviews with the investigators / crash experts though can be very interesting.

murphym7

JoeA3 wrote: »

Thanks guys.

A few episodes that really stood out for me were:

- The Russian Airbus where the pilot allowed his son sit in his seat to play with the controls :eek:
- The mid-air collision of the plane carrying all those school children and the DHL freighter
- The Tenerrife disaster

And then there were ones where the pilot saved the day through incredible skills, such as
- the Hudson River landing
- the BA 747 that flew into the ash cloud and lost all engines
- an incident (can't recall exact details) where a plane ran out of fuel over the ocean and the pilot managed to land with no engines


I've noticed the same actors appearing across a few episodes too, either as pilots or ground controllers! The narrator is always at pains to remind us of the importance of the voice/data recorder too in every single episode which is a bit repetitive.

The interviews with the investigators / crash experts though can be very interesting.

Don't forget the BA 777 at Heathrow that had ice build up in the fuel system - or was that another show?

Really enjoy the show though, some more interseting than others.

mikedragon32

JoeA3 wrote: »

Thanks guys.

A few episodes that really stood out for me were:

- The Russian Airbus where the pilot allowed his son sit in his seat to play with the controls :eek:
- The mid-air collision of the plane carrying all those school children and the DHL freighter
- The Tenerrife disaster

And then there were ones where the pilot saved the day through incredible skills, such as
- the Hudson River landing
- the BA 747 that flew into the ash cloud and lost all engines
- an incident (can't recall exact details) where a plane ran out of fuel over the ocean and the pilot managed to land with no engines


I've noticed the same actors appearing across a few episodes too, either as pilots or ground controllers! The narrator is always at pains to remind us of the importance of the voice/data recorder too in every single episode which is a bit repetitive.

The interviews with the investigators / crash experts though can be very interesting.

The last one you mention was an Air Transat flight which landed at the air force base on the Azores on a flight from Toronto to Lisbon.

Great show but the recreations won't be winning any awards for the actors, that's for sure!

JoeA3

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Great show but the recreations won't be winning any awards for the actors, that's for sure!

True! The odd one isn't too bad though, some of them do manage to convey the sheer terror of the situation they are in! The Russian pilot springs to mind as does the guy who played the Dutch pilot in Tenerife.

tippilot

JoeA3 wrote: »

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Great show but the recreations won't be winning any awards for the actors, that's for sure!

True! The odd one isn't too bad though, some of them do manage to convey the sheer terror of the situation they are in! The Russian pilot springs to mind as does the guy who played the Dutch pilot in Tenerife.

A certain poster on this forum has appeared in an air crash type documentary as a pilot...

A320

tippilot wrote: »

A certain poster on this forum has appeared in an air crash type documentary as a pilot...

Haha come on tippilot,tell us when you featured????????

tippilot

A320 wrote: »

Haha come on tippilot,tell us when you featured????????

I have a face more suited to radio myself!

Fear not though, acting greatness is among us ..

I don't see him around today..maybe he'll reveal himself when he sees this thread;)

PapaQuebec

JoeA3 wrote: »

Thanks guys.

A few episodes that really stood out for me were:

- The Russian Airbus where the pilot allowed his son sit in his seat to play with the controls :eek:
- The mid-air collision of the plane carrying all those school children and the DHL freighter- The Tenerrife disaster

And then there were ones where the pilot saved the day through incredible skills, such as
- the Hudson River landing
- the BA 747 that flew into the ash cloud and lost all engines
- an incident (can't recall exact details) where a plane ran out of fuel over the ocean and the pilot managed to land with no engines


I've noticed the same actors appearing across a few episodes too, either as pilots or ground controllers! The narrator is always at pains to remind us of the importance of the voice/data recorder too in every single episode which is a bit repetitive.

The interviews with the investigators / crash experts though can be very interesting.

Strange (but true!!), Vitaly Kolayev who went on to murder the Air Traffic Controller involved lives in my OH's street!!

galwayjohn89

PapaQuebec wrote: »

Strange (but true!!), Vitaly Kolayev who went on to murder the Air Traffic Controller involved lives in my OH's street!!

He lives now or used to live? Is this in Ireland? Thought he'd still be jail but just saw he got released a while back.

roundymac

He's now elected to parliment, in what ever state he's living in.

argosy2006

I watch it, Most of the time its a paper clip placed on wrong corner of paper that brings plane down and kills everyone on board,

amdublin

I love this program so much i worry i might be a bit sick

PapaQuebec

roundymac wrote: »

He's now elected to parliment, in what ever state he's living in.

Vladikavkaz, Respublika Servernaya Ossetiya-Alania

fletch

I have watched so many episodes of this that I geniunely think I would be of a benefit in the cockpit were something to go wrong ha

monkeysnapper

I have to say my favorites are when they all live, my favorite by far was when there was a leak in right hand engine and they left feed valve on and plane ran out of fuel, .. The captain was like ..... Its a computer error........ Oh no its not..... And they land and they all live to tell the tale

lord lucan

Love the shows myself. Lately though i've noticed a tendency to sensationalise everything(applies to a lot of other Nat Geo programming too) and try and rack up the suspense.

In saying that,they're great at breaking down the whole event and the processes involved and rather than frighten potential flyers(like Mrs. Lucan) it should reassure them how safe aviation is and the lessons learned are put to great use in keeping it safe.

squonk

I've seen a lot of the earlier shows. I'm not very up to date. I have some catching up to do. I love the shows though. Watching them really gave me an even higher level of respect for the work that pilots and aircraft mechanics do. I did get that the shows were about entertainment first and hard facts second but there was always a good balance and the ones I've seen never got to the 'Ice Road Truckers' level of obsurdity! I learned a few things about flight decks and aircraft in general through the show too. There isn't much I can say that's bad about it!

LLU

murphym7 wrote: »

Don't forget the BA 777 at Heathrow that had ice build up in the fuel system - or was that another show?

Really enjoy the show though, some more interseting than others.

The funny thing about that one was the fact that they couldn't resist dramatizing the water element! The 'investigators' were constantly drinking glasses of water and refilling their glasses in the most unlikely places, such as while holding a discussion standing in front of a whiteboard. If nothing else their bladders got a good workout filming that one! Good program though.

adamski8

Great show, amazing how they get actors that look so like thir real life counterparts

SouperComputer

Wife and I have an unhealthy obsession with these. I have probably about 3GB or more stored on the media server.

cml387

I don't really get too hung up about the odd inaccuracy in detail.

What is fascinating is the chain of events,this happened then this happened then this happened and then just one more link led to disaster.

The crash of AA965 in Cali was a particular stand out for me.
A different runway approach the one they expected caused a chain of events that led a highly experienced crew to crash into a mountain.

Wicklowleaid

I think personally this is a fascinating documentary series; doesn't it engage us all so well that have an interest in aniavition. My one particular call to mind is the Swiss Air 111 tragedy how that unfortunate crew made all the right moves and unfortunately time ran out. I think such toxic substances have been removed from airplanes whilst burning? I'm open to correction folks?

cocoshovel

This may sound a bit crude, but do you think they will ever do one on the crash at Cork? Id like to see that.

JoeA3

cocoshovel wrote: »

This may sound a bit crude, but do you think they will ever do one on the crash at Cork? Id like to see that.

I'm sure it's possible. They've done a few episodes where lighter aircraft like that were involved.
I don't think they've done the Air France one from 2009 yet either... Although I think the official investigation into that one is only recently completed (if at all?).

jmayo

cocoshovel wrote: »

This may sound a bit crude, but do you think they will ever do one on the crash at Cork? Id like to see that.

I would say probably not as it is a small aircraft, not a very sensational accident, there were very few lives lost and it didn't involve anyone famous in the US.
It might be done by a British show.

The thing that really gets me about some of these programs, and I think from recollection it happens on this one, is the constant reminders and rehashing of something that was already stated or shown earlier.

Thus you see the same scene multiple times.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact these were made for US market where there there are ad breaks every 10 minutes and the viewers it appears have the memory of an amoeba and they need to be reminded what they are watching once again.
Also this can explain how they sensationalise the events in order to keep the viewers attention.

As regards famous incidents/accidents the few that come to mind with reasonable outcomes or way better than expected outcomes were the :
Air Canada 767 flight that glided into Gimli
US Airways A320 that landed in the Hudson.
United Airlines DC10 that landed at Sioux city with no functioning controls.
Ethiopian Airlines 767 that was hijacked, ran out of fuel and landed in the water in the Comoro Islands.
Leua Abate the captain has been hijacked three times in total.
Aloha Airlines 737 that suffered massive decompression but yet landed in Maui, Hawaii.

cailinoBAC

I don't know how accurate it is, but according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mayday_episodes

Air France will be part of the next season.

galwayjohn89

cailinoBAC wrote: »

I don't know how accurate it is, but according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mayday_episodes

Air France will be part of the next season.

Did Seconds from Disaster do a episode on Air France crash. Pretty sure I've seen on thought it was ACI.

cailinoBAC

Would that be, I think the BBC documentary? I remember there was one done before they had found the black boxes.

fletch

Vuzuggu wrote: »

Did Seconds from Disaster do a episode on Air France crash. Pretty sure I've seen on thought it was ACI.

Pretty sure I've seen it too

adamski8

fletch wrote: »

Vuzuggu wrote: »

Did Seconds from Disaster do a episode on Air France crash. Pretty sure I've seen on thought it was ACI.

Pretty sure I've seen it too

There was one but it was speculation as it was before the black boxes were found and the report was published. They got it nearly spot on though I think

Calibos

The Air India episode was on a week or so ago. The Cork accent was terrible.....though the actors did a pitch perfect rendition of it

SouperComputer

Google "apapele182" and you'll find a lot of stuff.

Sterling Archer

Episode 13 is due to air today according to wiki... OOOHHH episode 13 on friday the 13th (couldn't help myself sorry ha)

Cork boy 55

great show , the ones where the pilots land against all the odds are the best
it's better when you don't know about the details or true story of crash before hand.

Seems to me that most aircrashes appear to have multiple causes
there are a series of events rather than just one part failure or mistake.

owenc

murphym7 wrote: »

Don't forget the BA 777 at Heathrow that had ice build up in the fuel system - or was that another show?

Really enjoy the show though, some more interseting than others.

Naw that was the British airways flight.

owenc

LLU wrote: »

The funny thing about that one was the fact that they couldn't resist dramatizing the water element! The 'investigators' were constantly drinking glasses of water and refilling their glasses in the most unlikely places, such as while holding a discussion standing in front of a whiteboard. If nothing else their bladders got a good workout filming that one! Good program though.

What's wrong with drama? Id rather have drama than no drama. I guess some just like being negative.

LLU

owenc wrote: »

What's wrong with drama? Id rather have drama than no drama. I guess some just like being negative.

Ah come on, how did you pull a negative from that?! It was an observation and as valid an opinion as your own. Guess somebody must have gotten out of the wrong side of the bed this morning:)!

shamwari

Calibos wrote: »

The Air India episode was on a week or so ago. The Cork accent was terrible.....though the actors did a pitch perfect rendition of it

I liked the "stereotypical" Irish Air traffic controllers in Shannon, complete with a cuppa cha and a smouldering fag. All that was missing was a pint of Guinness...

eatmyshorts

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Seems to me that most aircrashes appear to have multiple causes
there are a series of events rather than just one part failure or mistake.

Exactly right. That's the big thing with investigations. It may seem that there is one simple answer or cause to any accident, but in reality it is always a combination of events. In the industry it's referred to as an "Error Chain". By breaking one link in the error chain, an accident can be prevented.

If you're interested, google the "Swiss Cheese Model".


I do watch the programmes and like them. I agree with previous posters though that it is a bit over-hyped in places; pilots wrestling with controls usually with both having their hands on the controls at the same time, over egged quizical looks between crews etc.
There's usually also a myriad of factual errors. Things like "runway thirty-four R" instead of "3-4 Right" etc.
Over simplification of details also tends to creep in, but I suppose that is to be expected when it is aimed at the layman audience.

localcentra

Having read the recent AAIU report on the IRISH AER CORPs PC9 crash in Mayo a short while ago ,I was wondering if something like that incident would ever be included in those reconstruction dramas?.
Its probably one of a very few crashes in Ireland where there was recorded evidence of what happened.

Cork boy 55

localcentra wrote: »

Having read the recent AAIU report on the IRISH AER CORPs PC9 crash in Mayo a short while ago ,I was wondering if something like that incident would ever be included in those reconstruction dramas?.
Its probably one of a very few crashes in Ireland where there was recorded evidence of what happened.

I don't think I have seen crashes that small in terms of deaths featured on the show, sometimes they do small planes but usually it's small passenger planes.
To be brutal the small death toll does not make for good drama and ratings.

Cork boy 55

Interesting new show last night called Split Decision

They covered the 1985 Arrow Air Flight 1285 in Canada in 1985
Arrow Air Flight 1285 was a DC-8-63CF jetliner, registered N950JW, which operated as an international charter flight carrying U.S. troops from Cairo, Egypt, to their home base in Fort Campbell, Kentucky, via Cologne, Germany and Gander, Newfoundland. On the morning of December 12, 1985, shortly after takeoff from Gander en route to Fort Campbell, the aircraft stalled, crashed, and burned about half a mile from the runway, killing all 256 passengers and crew on board

250 soldiers from the 101st airborne where on board.
If that happened to Irish Army just imagine the loss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_Air_Flight_1285


The interesting thing is that they never really solved it 100%
due mainly to the intense fire damage and the fact it had a old type black box and voice recorder where not working.

The accident board split in two camps.
producing a majority and a minority report
with two completely different conclusions

The Majority offical report said it was a combination of
(1) the crew miscalculating the weight of soldiers and their gear
(2) small amount of ice on plane but not enough Ice for de-iceing to go ahead
Which effected lift and caused a stall and crash

The minority report said it was destroyed by an onboard explosion of unknown origin