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Titanic -Treatment of lower classes
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10-04-2012 2:03pm#1
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For me, I don't see a lot to celebrate. Life is far better for everybody now. Living conditions are far better and even a cheap plane ticket to the US guarantees you better comfort than those third class passengers had. If anything, the event should be a period of reflection on human nature and the dangers of arrogance and of putting profit before people. (I'm not a People Before Profit type btw). I wonder of any of those heading off on commemorative cruises or gigging have ever taken the time to read any of the accounts or read through the lists of those who died? I don't think that you would have much to celebrate if you did!
These things are always relative. The life that those in 1912 were living could by the same token be considered better than their predessesors.
The thread could be of value though to look at the lot of third class passengers on the Titanic (I will edit title to make it more specific in line with OP)as they do endure controversial treatment in folklore and it would be good to see if that was real, i.e. were they really locked down in their holds. People survived from third class so it is not the same for all. This is an account of one Maggie Madigan:
And from same site is Maggies ticket re-production:Once aboard Titanic, Daniel and Patrick separated from Bertha and Maggie to
find their quarters. Daniel and Patrick were berthed in the bow with the other single men and Bertha and Maggie were given accommodations in the stern area of the ship with the other single women. The voyage was relaxing but largely uneventful, with most of their
time spent in the third class general room aft on Titanic's C deck.
Maggie and Bertha had retired early Sunday evening, April 14, and were asleep when Titanic had
her fateful brush with the iceberg off Newfoundland. Having a cabin so deep within the ship, they felt the collision much more vividly than the first and secondclass passengers with accommodations on higher decks. They were actually jolted awake by the collision and roused from their sleep by the commotion in the hallway outside their cabin. Confused and frightened,
Maggie and Bertha were soon joined by Daniel and Patrick who hustled them to the third class promenade area where they luckily managed to climb to the boat
deck with many other steerage passengers, after having been held back by crewmen for a period of time.
Having ascended to the boat deck at the stern of Titanic, Maggie and her friends found Father Thomas R.D. Byles, an English priest from Ongar, Essex, ministering to and consoling many of Titanic's
steerage passengers, reciting prayers and trying to calm them as attempts were being made to place the
women and children in the last of the lifeboats, notably numbers 13, 14, 15 and 16. Daniel and Patrick
fought to place Maggie and Bertha into lifeboat 15 shortly before it descended from the boat deck. After
narrowly avoiding crushing boat 13, which had become entangled under it as it descended from the boat deck, the overcrowded lifeboat hit the water and barely
stayed afloat that long cold night. Sadly they never saw Daniel and Patrick again.
Following her rescue from the freezing Atlantic by the Carpathia, Maggie was removed to St. Vincent's
Hospital for a few days recovery from her ordeal. She then went to live with her married sister, Mary
Horgan, in Manhattan. http://www.askeatonbynet.com/titanic_survivor.htm
Seeing as how the sinking is so widely known it should be possible to use decent sources to look into this.0 -
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Commemorate rather than celebrate should be the way but there's more money to be made with the latter. Some of the bad taste being shown is really grating.
I've watched everything I can on Titanic over the years and I have a special movie which I'm saving for the 15th April - the German propaganda movie of the same name that was made in 1943. The movie was not a success despite the only heroic figure on the shipping being German and the few audiences that were able to view it in war ravaged Germany empathised with the drowning passengers.
Since starting this reply I have come across an amazing fact that I didn't know before - the ship that was used for the role of Titanic in the movie (SS Cap Arcona) was sunk by the RAF towards the very end of the war with a loss of life far greater than on the actual Titanic sinking.
Some 5,000 people, mainly inmates of German concentration camps died in the attack which according to Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Cap_Arcona was a truly appalling episode with German soldiers shooting many who reached the shore.
More here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/9124111/The-strange-sinking-of-the-Nazi-Titanic.html0 -
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The following table is useful in seeing whether the class system favoured the richer passengers.
http://www.anesi.com/titanic.htm
From this it is clear that in terms of survival the better class you could afford gave you a better chance of survival.
First class passenger survival rate- 62%
Second class passenger survival rate- 41%
Third class passenger survival rate- 25%
There is an excellent analytical look at the reasons for these differentials in the figures in this 1986 paper by a Wayne Hall- see hereThe Mersey inquiry restricted its attention to considering three
possible explanations of the class differences in survival: (1) that the third class passengers were
deliberately excluded from the lifeboats; (2) that the conditions of the ship operated to the disadvantage of
the passengers; and (3) that the third class passengers reduced their chances of survival by their own
behaviour.
The inquiry rejected the first explanation largely on the authority of a statement made by Mr Harbisson
who appeared before the inquiry to represent the interests of the third class passengers. Harbisson claimed
that there was not “one atom or tittle of evidence” that “any attempt was made to keep back the third class
passengers” nor that “there was any discrimination practised either by the officers or the sailors putting
them into the boats ...” [13].
Harbisson’s assertion could not have been based on the evidence of any third class passengers because
none gave any evidence before the inquiry. The claim that there was not an ‘atom’ of evidence that
discrimination occurred, does not withstand critical examination. Beesley gives examples of second class
passengers being denied entry to boats on the first class deck [8, p. 36], Lord [2, p. 95] and Padfield [10,
p. 75] both provide instances of third class passengers and crew being denied access to the first class
deck; and Lord [2, p. 96] reports that many of the men in the third class were kept below decks until the
last boats were leaving the ship.
........
The explanations of the class difference in survival preferred by the Mersey inquiry were that the
emigrants had been reluctant to leave their belongings, and that their lack of English prevented them from
following the crew’s instructions [1, pp. 40, 70]. The evidence for the former was a conjecture by the
Attorney General that emigrants would be 1oth to leave the ship because they “would certainly be
carrying all they possessed with them ... more 1oth probably than a person whose property was not all in
the vessel ...” [13, p. 73]. The evidence for the latter explanation was that many of the third class
passengers were ‘foreigners’ and thus did not understand what was required of them [1, p. 70]. The
warrant for this assertion was the supposedly greater rate of survival among the Irish third-class
passengers; a claim which is refuted by the results of the statistical analysis reported here.0 -
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Judgement Day wrote: »Off topic but I can't resist posting. This painting is included in Whyte's forthcoming History, Literature & Collectables Sale on Saturday 21st April. So, if you have a spare €3 - 4,000 get in there.
Passing the Fastnet?0 -
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One of my upcoming treats is reading the book 'Irish Aboard Titanic' by Senan Moloney. I'm hoping there'll be some more insight in that publication.
The author was on the Pat Kenny show yesterday
It's not up on the website yet, maybe tomorrow
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/todaywithpatkenny/#Podcasts
There in itunes if you subscribe that way
He spend a bit of time on officers having revolvers to control the crowds.
But I'm certain I saw a documentary years ago that this never happened and it was just a story, the dutiful British officers having to shot and control the unruly lower orders. Ruffians and no sense of order don't you know, what what
Was just a story glorifying the crew and driving home the class divide and of course the steerage passengers had to be locked downstairs in case there was disorder.
But the author was certain that it actually happened and that Irish steerage passengers were shot.
Other passengers would hold back but the Irish passengers didn't take kindly to being ordered around by the officers and so came forward
So now I'm completely lost, did it happen or not.
Only one Irish person was interviewed for the American enquiry but the author has information of another survivor who confirmed the shootings but she was never asked to give evidence.
The author give another story of an officer shooting four men who refused to leave a lifeboat.
I'm hearing authors and different documentary makers giving different stories
Check out the podcast anyway0 -
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What was the view of the wider public at the time of the sinking.
This rather caustic cartoon titled 'the eternal collision' suggests sympathy was not universal.
http://www.google.ie/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1608&bih=850&tbm=isch&tbnid=Rjj79Lf2_V32ZM:&imgrefurl=http://www.freewebs.com/graham7760/titaniccartoons.htm&docid=llV3sIVOklP3-M&imgurl=http://www.freewebs.com/graham7760/cart02.jpg&w=328&h=360&ei=6KKGT5PfBI2ChQfb8OXDCA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=386&sig=111515631264059462964&page=1&tbnh=150&tbnw=137&start=0&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:64&tx=67&ty=81
Similar from the Literary digest, 1912
Perhaps these were more targeted at the owners of the White star line. It is interesting that the film about the Titanic made WWII Germany as a Nazi propaganda film took the view that the main cause of the disaster was corporate greed. If JD has watched the film he might be able to comment on this. This third satire certainly has that view from the San francisco examiner in 1912. To what extent was this correct.
http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist5/titoon.html 0 -
There were lots of hero's on the Titanic but here is mine , Laurence Beesley
Had you been a woman traveling in second class on the Titanic a century ago, your chances of survival were quite favorable — 86 percent were saved. For the men in second class, one of whom was my grandfather Lawrence Beesley, the odds were the reverse — only 14 percent survived, and the rest were drowned in the freezing waters of the Atlantic.
Notions of male chivalry toward the weaker sex have since been cast aside, and it is no longer de rigueur for a man to yield his seat on a bus, or a lifeboat, to someone of the opposite sex. But in the Edwardian era it was a moral code with a force stronger than law. When the order was given on the Titanic for families to be separated and for women to board lifeboats first, no man rushed ahead.
I have often wondered how my grandfather managed to beat the heavy odds against his survival. But I was too young, while he lived, ever to ask such an impertinent question. I have since come up with a possible answer, based on many readings of “The Loss of the Titanic,” a book he wrote within a few weeks of his rescue.
My grandfather earned first-class honors in science at Cambridge University and had discovered a new species of algae before he graduated. But instead of pursuing a career in science he chose to become a high school physics teacher in his home town, Wirksworth, in northern England. Perhaps he needed the steadier income — he was already married to his first wife and had a young son, Alec (who was to marry Dodie Smith, the playwright and author of “101 Dalmatians”).
He left his next job, as a physics master at Dulwich College in London, to become a Christian Science practitioner. Given that Christian Science values spiritual healing over scientific medicine, this was a surprising departure for him. It was to meet one of his brothers, also a Christian Scientist, in Toronto that my grandfather bought a second-class ticket on the Titanic for £13 (about $60 at the time). He boarded the ship at Southampton on April 10, 1912.
Traveling at high speed through an iceberg field without searchlights, the Titanic brushed past an iceberg at 11:40 p.m. on April 14. An underwater extension of the iceberg sliced through the ship’s thin metal skin so smoothly that the passengers noticed no impact. The ship was designed to stay afloat with four of its forward sections flooded, but could not survive the compromise of six. It sank at 2:20 the next morning.
The captain ordered the lifeboats to be readied shortly after midnight. Presumably he knew that there were not enough to save everyone but did not advertise this information. Many passengers were at first unwilling to leave the vast ship, believing it unsinkable, and the first lifeboats left half filled.
My grandfather was standing on the top starboard deck of the boat with a large group of men when a rumor went around that the men were to be taken off on the port side. Almost everyone moved across the ship. Only he and two others stayed where they were.
Shortly after, he heard a cry of “Any more ladies?” from a lifeboat swinging level with the deck below. Leaning over the edge of his deck, he looked down at the boat.
“Any ladies on your deck?” a crew member asked him.
“No,” my grandfather replied.
“Then you had better jump.”
My grandfather put his feet over the side of the deck, threw his dressing gown ahead of him, and dropped onto the stern of the lifeboat.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/10/science/beating-the-odds-to-survive-the-titanics-sinking.html?_r=1
The odds of surviving as a man in 2nd Class was 14 % and a woman 86%.
Thank God for feminism.0 -
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jonniebgood1 wrote: »
From this it is clear that in terms of survival the better class you could afford gave you a better chance of survival.
It's interesting that twice as many men in terms of % from 3rd class were saved as from 2nd, though...
and in actual numbers, same number of men as women in third. No outdated moral code there, then Surprised about the kids in 3rd though 0 -
I know I am opening up a can of worms here but what would you expect people to do tonight? Stay in and mourn the dead of 100 years ago? I myself intend on heading to Addergoole in County Mayo that remembers 14 people from that village that travelled on the Titanic, 11 of whom died. All steerage. There is an annual event down there culminating in a candlelit procession through the village at 2.20am on the 15th.
From what I've heard, the 14 were nearly forgotten about completely until the 1990's when a local man took an interest in them and set up a society to find out about them. This society has organised a week of activities at considerable expense in terms of time and money.
Now there will be huge activity in the area tonight (with Im sure many a pint of porter drank) and you can argue that that is distasteful, but to put a different slant on it, I've read about those 14 people, their relatives now and then and their life circumstances that I may never have if the event wasnt taking place. These 14 will always be remembered in this area. Indeed being a bit morbid here, should i die in tragic circumstances, then I find it nice that someone might know my name in 100 years time.
Basically what Im trying to say is that while we shouldnt forget the past, we can never change it and while it was a terrible tragidy (not the biggest in maritime history mind), we should celebrate life rather than mourn the dead.
And before anyone says anything, I have a huge interest in the Titanic (not just from the film!
) and have read plenty about the conditions of all passengers, the string of errors that lead to the accident and the heroics/villanry that fateful night.
Final note, my favourite Titanic film is A Night to Remember.0 -
It's interesting that twice as many men in terms of % from 3rd class were saved as from 2nd, though...
and in actual numbers, same number of men as women in third. No outdated moral code there, then Surprised about the kids in 3rd though
72 % of Women Survived , 50% of Children and 19 % of Men.
It was women first and you know it .
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Flange/Flanders wrote: »I know I am opening up a can of worms here but what would you expect people to do tonight? Stay in and mourn the dead of 100 years ago? I myself intend on heading to Addergoole in County Mayo that remembers 14 people from that village that travelled on the Titanic, 11 of whom died. All steerage. There is an annual event down there culminating in a candlelit procession through the village at 2.20am on the 15th.
From what I've heard, the 14 were nearly forgotten about completely until the 1990's when a local man took an interest in them and set up a society to find out about them. This society has organised a week of activities at considerable expense in terms of time and money.
Now there will be huge activity in the area tonight (with Im sure many a pint of porter drank) and you can argue that that is distasteful, but to put a different slant on it, I've read about those 14 people, their relatives now and then and their life circumstances that I may never have if the event wasnt taking place. These 14 will always be remembered in this area. Indeed being a bit morbid here, should i die in tragic circumstances, then I find it nice that someone might know my name in 100 years time.
Basically what Im trying to say is that while we shouldnt forget the past, we can never change it and while it was a terrible tragidy (not the biggest in maritime history mind), we should celebrate life rather than mourn the dead.
And before anyone says anything, I have a huge interest in the Titanic (not just from the film! ) and have read plenty about the conditions of all passengers, the string of errors that lead to the accident and the heroics/villanry that fateful night.
Final note, my favourite Titanic film is A Night to Remember.
That's quite alright, its Celine Dion warbling across Cork Harbour on a PA system gets my goat, plus THIS...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129971/Titanic-100th-anniversary-Twitter-users-just-Titanic-really-happened.html?printingPage=true0 -
That's quite alright, its Celine Dion warbling across Cork Harbour on a PA system gets my goat, plus THIS...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129971/Titanic-100th-anniversary-Twitter-users-just-Titanic-really-happened.html?printingPage=true
Makes you wonder how 'we' ever had an Empire or perhaps it's why 'we' did. 0 -
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This gives a small insight...
http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/51086/white-star-chairman-j-bruce-ismay-finds-peace-in-the-west
Thanks! I love his local nickname, Brú síos mé. 0 -
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