Decline in English Club Rugby

OldRio

It seems, after the Sarries defeat by Clermont Auvergne, the navel gazing has begun. Nigel Wray the owner of Saracens is blaming the salary cap.

Interesting article in the Guardian.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/apr/08/saracens-clermont-auvergne-heineken-cup?newsfeed=true

Fishooks12

Salary cap my arse

Compare Saracens budget to Ulsters and Edinburgh's and come back to me Mr Wray

Big Nelly

OldRio wrote: »

It seems, after the Sarries defeat by Clermont Auvergne, the navel gazing has begun. Nigel Wray the owner of Saracens is blaming the salary cap.

Interesting article in the Guardian.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/apr/08/saracens-clermont-auvergne-heineken-cup?newsfeed=true

Constant whinging out of the English rugby clubs now for a while. They are playing a poor brand of rugby. Saracens where awful, once they couldn't bulldoze there way through CA they where lost. Didn't know what to do. Headless chicken. And the great Saracens scrum was rubbish.

Harlequins where poor on Friday as well. Terrible match.

Watched some of Wasps match and they should of been hammered by Biaritz who butchered so many try chances.

justsomebloke

On a side note I thought it was interesting that there was over 83,000 fans for their match against Harlequins on the 31st of March and only 11,000 for their HEC quarter final a week later.

pickarooney

Love some of the comments:

really thought the ipads would have swung it Saracens way

Basing your attack strategy on "Angry Birds" probably isn't the wisest...

Big Nelly

justsomebloke wrote: »

On a side note I thought it was interesting that there was over 83,000 fans for their match against Harlequins on the 31st of March and only 11,000 for their HEC quarter final a week later.

Yeah it was a record for the Aviva Premiership.....Saracens complain because they have to use Vicarage Road? its a kip. They even where talking about it on Sky that one of the stands is about to fall down.......

I think they have a plan for new ground in the near future???

lologram

Nathan Hines ‏ @Wagga5
I find the insinuation that Sarries couldn't win the game because of the salary cap laughable. Tell that to @EdinburghRugby

You tell'em big man!

thomond2006

moan moan moan, bunch of plonkers

OldRio

justsomebloke wrote: »

On a side note I thought it was interesting that there was over 83,000 fans for their match against Harlequins on the 31st of March and only 11,000 for their HEC quarter final a week later.

To lose that amount of supporters over 7 days is odd. No wonder some of the clubs have serious financial problems. The over reliance on rich owners to pay the bills instead of bums on seats is starting to bite. An increase in the salary cap would put clubs like Sarries at an advantage over some of their competitors.

The Rugby Club on Sky said that Sarries had received planning approval for a new ground.
I, they love to moan

stephen_n

Look at the make up of the semis and you will see the real difference is not salary it's simply the amount of games played. Three Rabo teams who can afford to use their players more sparingly throughout the season one Top 14 side and no GP where they are playing upwards of 40 matches a season with relegation and qualification restricting the ability to rest players. The HC is rapidly becoming biased in favour of Rabo teams.

liammur

OldRio wrote: »

To lose that amount of supporters over 7 days is odd. No wonder some of the clubs have serious financial problems. The over reliance on rich owners to pay the bills instead of bums on seats is starting to bite. An increase in the salary cap would put clubs like Sarries at an advantage over some of their competitors.

The Rugby Club on Sky said that Sarries had received planning approval for a new ground.
I, they love to moan

Let's look at some of the facts. Both grounds were sold out. They played that match in their small home ground thinking it would give them a good advantage, hindsight is wonderful, they should have played in at twickenham.

liammur

stephen_n wrote: »

Look at the make up of the semis and you will see the real difference is not salary it's simply the amount of games played. Three Rabo teams who can afford to use their players more sparingly throughout the season one Top 14 side and no GP where they are playing upwards of 40 matches a season with relegation and qualification restricting the ability to rest players. The HC is rapidly becoming biased in favour of Rabo teams.

Rabo teams are much better than people think. Most of them are full of internationals, that's the bottom line.

marienbad

stephen_n wrote: »

Look at the make up of the semis and you will see the real difference is not salary it's simply the amount of games played. Three Rabo teams who can afford to use their players more sparingly throughout the season one Top 14 side and no GP where they are playing upwards of 40 matches a season with relegation and qualification restricting the ability to rest players. The HC is rapidly becoming biased in favour of Rabo teams.

Yet a few years back when Wasps and Leicester were winning the HEC all round them this was the very reason given for their success, the cutthroat nature of the Premier league made them tougher than the rest in competition and promotion/relegation was a vital part of that .

They want it both ways it seems . The sport has just moved on and they hav'nt is all.

clevtrev

liammur wrote: »

Let's look at some of the facts. Both grounds were sold out. They played that match in their small home ground thinking it would give them a good advantage, hindsight is wonderful, they should have played in at twickenham.

Vicarage road wasn't sold out. There was only 11,000 in a stadium with capacity of 18,000. Loads of empty seats looking at it on Sky.

liammur

clevtrev wrote: »

Vicarage road wasn't sold out. There was only 11,000 in a stadium with capacity of 18,000. Loads of empty seats looking at it on Sky.

Well that is very odd. Maybe Clermont didn't bring any fans ?

rrpc

stephen_n wrote: »

Look at the make up of the semis and you will see the real difference is not salary it's simply the amount of games played. Three Rabo teams who can afford to use their players more sparingly throughout the season one Top 14 side and no GP where they are playing upwards of 40 matches a season with relegation and qualification restricting the ability to rest players. The HC is rapidly becoming biased in favour of Rabo teams.

Are you counting A-League matches in that total? Because excluding A-League games, the total is more in line with Rabo teams also playing in the HEC.

The only difference is the added LV= cup games which are also played by the Welsh regions.

OldRio

liammur wrote: »

Let's look at some of the facts. Both grounds were sold out. They played that match in their small home ground thinking it would give them a good advantage, hindsight is wonderful, they should have played in at twickenham.

'Lets look at the facts'
???????????????
The fact is both stadiums were not sold out.
Clermont brought 2,000 fans to Vicarage Road.
Enough facts for you ????????

liammur

OldRio wrote: »

'Lets look at the facts'
???????????????
The fact is both stadiums were not sold out.
Clermont brought 2,000 fans to Vicarage Road.
Enough facts for you ????????

Clevtrev told us it wasnt sold out, we don't need anymore updates, thank you.

justsomebloke

liammur please either be civil or don't bother posting, and please don't go around stating things as 'fact' when you don't actually know they are

armchaircoach

Big Nelly wrote: »

They are playing a poor brand of rugby. Saracens where awful, once they couldn't bulldoze there way through CA they where lost. Didn't know what to do.

Before we all get on our high horses and start giving back slaps all round, remember the above quote would also apply exactly to another of the teams playing a quarter final last wekend.

skregs

armchaircoach wrote: »

Before we all get on our high horses and start giving back slaps all round, remember the above quote would also apply exactly to another of the teams playing a quarter final last wekend.

Back slaps and high horses for just the Leinster/Ulster fans so

CatFromHue

05/06 there were 3 English teams in the HEC QF's (Leicester, Bath, and Sale) and 5 in the Amlin (Gloucester, London Irish, Newcastle, Worchester, and Northampton).

06/07 there were 3 English teams in the HEC QF's (Leicester, Wasps, and Northampton) and 4 in the Amlin (Newcastle, Bristol, Bath, and Saracens).

07/08 there were 3 English teams in the HEC QF's (Saracens, London Irish, and Gloucester) and 5 in the Amlin (Sale, Bath, Leeds, Newcastle, and Worchester).

08/09 there were 3 English teams in the HEC QF's (Harlequins, Leicester, and Bath) and 5 in the Amlin (London Irish, Worchester, Northampton, Newcastle, and Saracens).

09/10 there was 1 English team in the HEC QF's (Nothampton) and 3 in the Amlin (Wasps, Gloucester, and Newcastle). This was the first year that teams from the HEC entered the Amlin.

10/11 there was 2 English teams in the HEC QF's (Northampton and Leicester) and 2 in the Amlin (Harlequins and Wasps).

11/12 there was 1 English team in the HEC QF's (Saracens) and 3 in the Amlin (Harlequins, Exeter, and Wasps).

It's my understanding that the Salary Cap of £4m was first brought in for the 10/11 season. Whatever happened in 2009 made a big difference to the English teams performance in Europe. They were getting 7 to 8 QF in both European comps up to and incl 08/09 which then halved to 4 each season from 09/10 onwards.

2009 would have been when the recession first hit hard, well in Ireland anyway, so maybe money has more to do it with than people think. I don't know where to go to find out attendance levels for the Aviva Premiership so everything is just anecdotal at the moment. What is certain though is that the salary cap was brought in for a reason, too many clubs where overspending and were running at a loss, and the clubs themselves would have noticed this in the season or so before the cap was brought in i.e around 09/10.

sock puppet

Big Nelly wrote: »

Constant whinging out of the English rugby clubs now for a while.

Obviously not true. If the English clubs as a whole had a problem with the salary cap then it wouldn't exist.

rrpc

CatFromHue wrote: »

05/06 there were 3 English teams in the HEC QF's (Leicester, Bath, and Sale) and 5 in the Amlin (Gloucester, London Irish, Newcastle, Worchester, and Northampton).

06/07 there were 3 English teams in the HEC QF's (Leicester, Wasps, and Northampton) and 4 in the Amlin (Newcastle, Bristol, Bath, and Saracens).

07/08 there were 3 English teams in the HEC QF's (Saracens, London Irish, and Gloucester) and 5 in the Amlin (Sale, Bath, Leeds, Newcastle, and Worchester).

08/09 there were 3 English teams in the HEC QF's (Harlequins, Leicester, and Bath) and 5 in the Amlin (London Irish, Worchester, Northampton, Newcastle, and Saracens).

09/10 there was 1 English team in the HEC QF's (Nothampton) and 3 in the Amlin (Wasps, Gloucester, and Newcastle). This was the first year that teams from the HEC entered the Amlin.

10/11 there was 2 English teams in the HEC QF's (Northampton and Leicester) and 2 in the Amlin (Harlequins and Wasps).

11/12 there was 1 English team in the HEC QF's (Saracens) and 3 in the Amlin (Harlequins, Exeter, and Wasps).

It's my understanding that the Salary Cap of £4m was first brought in for the 10/11 season. Whatever happened in 2009 made a big difference to the English teams performance in Europe. They were getting 7 to 8 QF in both European comps up to and incl 08/09 which then halved to 4 each season from 09/10 onwards.

2009 would have been when the recession first hit hard, well in Ireland anyway, so maybe money has more to do it with than people think. I don't know where to go to find out attendance levels for the Aviva Premiership so everything is just anecdotal at the moment. What is certain though is that the salary cap was brought in for a reason, too many clubs where overspending and were running at a loss, and the clubs themselves would have noticed this in the season or so before the cap was brought in i.e around 09/10.

Although that's an impressive piece of research, it's a tad one-sided. It could be equally argued that standards rose in the other nations competing which started to make inroads on the English share of the spoils. The average French participation at QF stage has increased in the latter years with three and even sometimes four making it through whereas it seemed to be just Toulouse and A.N. Autre making it through previously.

irishbucsfan

Their salary cap is so tight that they're addind Chris Ashton to the wage bill next season for mad money.

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Their salary cap is so tight that they're addind Chris Ashton to the wage bill next season for mad money.

Who's no special winger by any means

Podge_irl

stephen_n wrote: »

Look at the make up of the semis and you will see the real difference is not salary it's simply the amount of games played. Three Rabo teams who can afford to use their players more sparingly throughout the season one Top 14 side and no GP where they are playing upwards of 40 matches a season with relegation and qualification restricting the ability to rest players. The HC is rapidly becoming biased in favour of Rabo teams.

Leinster have managed to stay top of the Pro12 by rotating their squad intelligently and using a hell of a lot of academy developed players through the season. I've seen little from the Premiership to make me believe that if Leinster were in that league they would perform significantly poorer in it or the HEC as a result.

CatFromHue

rrpc wrote: »

Although that's an impressive piece of research, it's a tad one-sided. It could be equally argued that standards rose in the other nations competing which started to make inroads on the English share of the spoils. The average French participation at QF stage has increased in the latter years with three and even sometimes four making it through whereas it seemed to be just Toulouse and A.N. Autre making it through previously.

Yeah without any info on the clubs financial records for 2008/09 it's just interesting but useless info. It is bizarre though that there was such an immediate and continuous drop off in English teams qualifying for European knockout stages.

Flincher

I'm sure the salary cap has been around since before 09/10. My recollection is that it was increased from 3.5m to 4.0m then, so it shouldnt have had a detrimental effect on performances.

I think the Premiership needs to look at excluding academy graduates from the salary cap. At the moment, there is a huge amount of movement between clubs. It seems a huge amount of players hop between clubs on 2 year contracts.

Cooper.

Would it be too far-fetched to suggest that Rabo teams are simply better than their English counterparts?

rrpc

Cooper. wrote: »

Would it be too far-fetched to suggest that Rabo teams are simply better than their English counterparts?

It might be a bit unfair. Possibly a chicken-egg scenario as more Rabo teams get into the HEC and by extension are exposed to a higher standard of rugby then they get in their own league.

This year it was 4 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Scottish and 2 Italian teams. 11 out of a possible 12. In contrast there were 7 Premiership teams involved. As this is by and large the numbers every season, all the Rabo teams have to factor in HC matches and build their squads accordingly.

As a result, there's more development of academy players and more game time for them which in turn leads to greater squad depth and better squad rotation.

irishbucsfan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Their salary cap is so tight that they're addind Chris Ashton to the wage bill next season for mad money.

Who's no special winger by any means

105 tries in 131 games as a pro rugby union player at the age of 24?

twinytwo

if leinster played in the AP... they would walk through that and still make challange for the HC.. why???

They planned well, have gotten excellent coaches and have a nack for aquiring serious overseas players.

Now compare that to some/most of the AP teams and you have the complete opposite.

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

105 tries in 131 games as a pro rugby union player at the age of 24?

Yeah but didn't he score something ridiculous like 30 tries in one season in the Championship.

It's still an impressive record though and he's a good player, it's ridiculous to say otherwise, maybe he has an inflated opinion of himself, let's be honest he wouldn't be alone on that in England. Actually part of the reason why I felt England were better this season was that Lancaster managed to create a more grounded team.

Anyway as far as the AP goes I sat and watched Richard Cockerill witha straight face tell Sky Sports News last night that the reason the AP clubs don't do so well in Europe is that they have a much stronger league than the Pro 12.

What next the manager of Linfield or Shelbourne telling Sky that the reason they don't do well in Europe is that the EPL is so weak?!

Anyone know what the annual wage bill for Munster, Leinster and Ulster would be? I wold guess it's a bit more than £4m but I'm not sure it would be that much more.

Robbo

Isn't it well accepted that the salary "cap" has been sidestepped to the point where it's ineffectual? No show jobs for your family, cars, rent free accommodation that sort of thing.

bilston

There seems to have been a drop off in the quality of NEQ players in the Premiership. I wonder if the 50% tax band that was introduced in the UK a few years ago plays a role (around about the same time as the introduction of the salary cap I suppose). It's being reduced to 45% next April so maybe that will give the clubs a bit more wriggle room in contract negotiations with big overseas players.

Leinster7

The English don't know humility in victory or defeat.

Possibly why everyone despises them.

irishbucsfan

Leinster7 wrote: »

The English don't know humility in victory or defeat.

Possibly why everyone despises them.

This is established fact. Every Englishman is an asshole. Every Irishman is a bloody legend.

Fair Mitty

Shouldn't rugby clubs in England be a bit more geographically dispersed? There's only 2 premiership teams in the North of England. Yet there are 4 premiership clubs in London. I remember reading in Martin Johnson's book that the whole league structure should be reorganised, with a team in every county/second county.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Fair Mitty wrote: »

Shouldn't rugby clubs in England be a bit more geographically dispersed? There's only 2 premiership teams in the North of England. Yet there are 4 premiership clubs in London. I remember reading in Martin Johnson's book that the whole league structure should be reorganised, with a team in every county/second county.

12 superleague teams in the north of the country and just one in London.

League is more popular in the north of the country.

Fair Mitty

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

12 superleague teams in the north of the country and just one in London.

League is more popular in the north of the country.

I know, but wouldn't it be better for English rugby if they made a fair fist of making Union more popular than it is nationwide?

Back on topic, the salary cap has no doubt taken some prestige out of the Premiership and there are a lot more very average players there now than ten years ago. Sky Sports hype of the league has really gone down a few notches aswell...

pickarooney

twinytwo wrote: »

if leinster played in the AP... they would walk through that and still make challange for the HC.. why???

They planned well, have gotten excellent coaches and have a nack for aquiring serious overseas players.

Now compare that to some/most of the AP teams and you have the complete opposite.

Would Leinster still be able to attract more than 1/3 of all Irish current and future players in this scenario though?

steve9859

Leinster7 wrote: »

The English don't know humility in victory or defeat.

Possibly why everyone despises them.

Remind me again which of the two teams was behaving like a**holes in the run up to the St Patrick's Day match this year......

Cooper.

Fair Mitty wrote: »

Shouldn't rugby clubs in England be a bit more geographically dispersed? There's only 2 premiership teams in the North of England. Yet there are 4 premiership clubs in London. I remember reading in Martin Johnson's book that the whole league structure should be reorganised, with a team in every county/second county.

I'm pretty sure you can't force that kind of change. If there are more premiership clubs in London than in the north then there's probably a good reason for that (London attracting more investment, perhaps).

bilston

Fair Mitty wrote: »

Sky Sports hype of the league has really gone down a few notches aswell...

Probably because ESPN have most of the rights now.