Well Done!!

Nesta99

Congratulations to the Louth lads in securing Division 2 football at the expence of Meath, and finally breaking the Pairc Tailteann hoodoo! Bad luck Meath - couldnt happen to a nicer bunch(yes i am still bitter:p)

macadam

Sweet revenge for 2010 leinster final debacle, great that meath were relegated and even better at the hands of Louth.
This is a massive result for the Gaels of Louth.
Come on the WEE COUNTY..

whelan1

they will say its due to the fact joe sheridan is gone, but louth where the better team full stop

Nesta99

whelan1 wrote: »

they will say its due to the fact joe sheridan is gone, but louth where the better team full stop

Aye they didnt have anybody to chuck the ball into the net when they needed a goal......

whelan1

meath are magic, they disappeared out of division 2:D

Nesta99

Thanks RTE for telling us all how rubbish Meath are, clubs and county - how about recognising an emphatic win by Louth and that maybe just maybe we are moving forward (though we will only really find that out championship time). As an aside with Longford in particular and Wexford coming up with stronger countys imo going down we should expect safety minimum again next season!

Hammer Archer

whelan1 wrote: »

they will say its due to the fact joe sheridan is gone, but louth where the better team full stop

No. No we won't. Louth were the better team full stop.
I for one was expecting a defeat today (though not the margin) given the way we played in the previous three games before today. I have been going to Meath games for as long as I can remember and this is easily the worst Meath team I have ever seen. We didn't deserve to be in division 2 and it would have been almost criminal to have fluked survival for the second season in a row.
So well done on the victory and well done on staying up. But just a word on the celebrations. At the end of the day it was a division 2 relegation playoff. I thought the "oléing" which started 10 minutes before the end was a tad embarrassing to be honest. I was embarrassed when our fans did it while destroying Kerry in 2001 and that was in an AI semi final.

I'm not trying to belittle your win by any means, by all means enjoy it. Just for your sake I hope your players don't see this as the biggest game of their season and take their eyes off the ball when the championship comes along.

Nesta99

Hammer Archer wrote: »

But just a word on the celebrations. At the end of the day it was a division 2 relegation playoff.

A Division 2 relegation play-off against Meath, which in case you have forgotten has a particular edge for Louth fans; always was there but especially after 2010!!

Now it is without doubt minnowism on our behalf but i will enjoy thoroughly as we have had little else to enjoy as Louth supporters (even if it is just relegating Meath).

You are absolutely spot on about the team not seeing it as the pinnacle of the season with the Championship looming! Havent looked at the sides of the draw but upon meeting Meath again i'd imagine they would not so easily be rolled over.

southlouth type

Louth played out of there skin and refused to let Meath play , but i refuse to give any credence to the idea that this is the worst meath team you have ever seen ! Louth where just to good on the day . This will give fitzpatrick some more time without any negative pressure coming his way . Lets see how we get on in the summer .....

Hammer Archer

Nesta99 wrote: »

A Division 2 relegation play-off against Meath, which in case you have forgotten has a particular edge for Louth fans; always was there but especially after 2010!!

Now it is without doubt minnowism on our behalf but i will enjoy thoroughly as we have had little else to enjoy as Louth supporters (even if it is just relegating Meath).

You are absolutely spot on about the team not seeing it as the pinnacle of the season with the Championship looming! Havent looked at the sides of the draw but upon meeting Meath again i'd imagine they would not so easily be rolled over.

Fair enough. I've seen people say that this is revenge for the Leinster final. Does that mean people (not just from Louth) will stop bringing it up constantly? Because I sure hope so as it got tiresome a long long time ago.

southlouth type wrote: »

Louth played out of there skin and refused to let Meath play , but i refuse to give any credence to the idea that this is the worst meath team you have ever seen ! Louth where just to good on the day . This will give fitzpatrick some more time without any negative pressure coming his way . Lets see how we get on in the summer .....

I don't care if you give any credence to it, the fact is that this is the worst Meath team I've ever seen. I'm not disputing that Louth were too good on the day, that was obvious, but I've seen the majority of Meath games over the past 10-15 years and in the last 4 games I have seen 4 of the most heartless, gutless performances from our players in that time. I'd excuse the odd lethargic performance but these were 4 consecutive games, 2 of which were in Navan which is traditionally a fortress for us, all of which had lots at stake in which we didn't even put in any effort.

Again congratulations on the win. I can't see us locking horns in the championship barring a round 1 qualifier draw as, with this manager, we'll be lucky to win a game in the championship.

rpurfield

was over there yesterday and ive never been as embarrassed by a meath team in all my life as i was yesterday, louth fully deserved it.but as has been previously said ye need to let the whole 2010 thing go and move on!there was a louth lad sat beside me, id say he was well in his sixties and even with ten minutes to go he was still giving out about ye!

Nesta99

rpurfield wrote: »

ye need to let the whole 2010 thing go and move on!!

Why? Where's the fun in that? When the English quit going on about 1966, when Thierry Henry is never uttered in anger by an irish tongue and when Louth win at least the provincial championship preferably against Meath well then there might be some chance.........

southlouth type

Nesta99 wrote: »

Why? Where's the fun in that? When the English quit going on about 1966, when Thierry Henry is never uttered in anger by an irish tongue and when Louth win at least the provincial championship preferably against Meath well then there might be some chance.........

Have to agree with that . Why should we stop going on about it ? It was the biggest injustice i have ever seen in sport in my lifetime . Wins like yesterday make it a little easier but not much .

Salt001

southlouth type wrote: »

Have to agree with that . Why should we stop going on about it ? It was the biggest injustice i have ever seen in sport in my lifetime . Wins like yesterday make it a little easier but not much .

My stomach still churns when I see it :mad:

Nesta99

southlouth type wrote: »

Have to agree with that . Why should we stop going on about it ? It was the biggest injustice i have ever seen in sport in my lifetime . Wins like yesterday make it a little easier but not much .

Ah SLT isn't is nice to have a NLT and an SLT get on, i hope it wasnt too hard to agree with me !

It does move us on a bit from Jim 'it was a good goal' Sheridan! Westmeath next up and a match we would be favourites to win -Pairc Talteann again i believe? We will never see an easier Meath team again so tis up to us to kick on. Dya know the injustice of 2010 may have done us all a favour, it garnered Louth football and disguised the downward spiral that Meath may be in?

kormak

Congrats to Louth....
as a proud Meathman, it was dark day for the Royals. Me thinks Banty, Barney Allen the rest of the useless sh*ts on the County Boards need to go.
That team was a shadow on what we had in the late 80s.

Hammer Archer

Nesta99 wrote: »

Why? Where's the fun in that? When the English quit going on about 1966, when Thierry Henry is never uttered in anger by an irish tongue and when Louth win at least the provincial championship preferably against Meath well then there might be some chance.........

How is England winning the World Cup similar to this? And the vast majority of football fans (myself included) were/are embarrassed at the overreaction after the Thierry Henry incident (looking for replays, an extra WC spot etc.). Most of us have moved on.

southlouth type wrote: »

Have to agree with that . Why should we stop going on about it ? It was the biggest injustice i have ever seen in sport in my lifetime . Wins like yesterday make it a little easier but not much .

Because what will going on about it indefinitely achieve? Referee's make stupid mistakes in games. We've had our fair share over the years that have cost us games yet don't go on and on about it years later.
One thing that no one seemed to be able to answer about the incident was had the roles been reversed and Louth benefited, would there been as big an outcry given it was the underdog that benefited? Doubtful.

Nesta99

I think you choose to ignore the point of my post, tongue in cheek as it was. People have long memories in sport and will continuely bring up success and fails and even moreso controversial moments. We bemoan, in general, about the English always referring to1966 as if it is relevent to current day world cups, sickening everyone (particularily the Irish). You may have been embaressed about the furore with Henry etc. and rightly so but if you think that people are not still sickened by those few moments in our sporting history you underestimate the impact that such moments have on peoples memories. Siapan still gets rolled out fairly often still, especially when the main protaganist is still worshipped by so many red/green supporters.

Like it or not Joe Sheridan is in the same mould as Thierry Henry as somone who will mainly be remembered for that one moment in his esteemed football career (stick Maradona in there too -how many will first mention the 'hand of god' before his wonder goal in the same match). Quite sad for them really considering how much else that was good they were involved in.

As for circumstances being reversed, as many Meath people did at the time i'd have said 's*it' happens and looked forward to the next match! As for the general outcry? Well i cant answer for others but Pat Spillane would be a good start there, is it a case of how many for the underdog or how many dislike Meath? If it is the latter well i'd see that as a compliment as as you know people only really dislike the successful.

SouthLouth Type can vouch for sports fans harping on about the past and long memories - just ask him about Dundalk FC fans and the 9 leagues and 9 cups

kormak

Ah now... comparing Joe Sheridan to Thierry Henry is a tad ludicrous?!

Joe sloppelly throw the ball forward into an open goal. Absolute illegal goal but he done what any GAA footballer would have done in that situation.
This was opportunistic desperation!

Thierry Henry handled once and then twice to get more control of the ball before passing to Gallas.
This was blatent cheating!!

Nesta99

In fairness i wasnt comparing the 'incidents' like with like although i can see how that came across from the way i phrased it. I meant more that these players will be remembered more for their involvement in such incidents rather than other achievements in their careers. Joe will never be forgotten as a result of his throw ball. He did run off to celebrate rather than to the ref to say he made no contact! anyway enough on the past from me

kormak

Nesta99 wrote: »

In fairness i wasnt comparing the 'incidents' like with like although i can see how that came across from the way i phrased it. I meant more that these players will be remembered more for their involvement in such incidents rather than other achievements in their careers. Joe will never be forgotten as a result of his throw ball. He did run off to celebrate rather than to the ref to say he made no contact! anyway enough on the past from me

Fair enough, point taken.
He's off in Boston now anyway working hard on perfecting his TOUCHDOWN!! :pac:

Nesta99

Boom! Boom!

event

kormak wrote: »

Fair enough, point taken.
He's off in Boston now anyway working hard on perfecting his TOUCHDOWN!! :pac:

or singing in pubs

locum-motion

kormak wrote: »

Ah now... comparing Joe Sheridan to Thierry Henry is a tad ludicrous?!

Joe sloppelly throw the ball forward into an open goal. Absolute illegal goal but he done what any GAA footballer would have done in that situation.
This was opportunistic desperation!

Thierry Henry handled once and then twice to get more control of the ball before passing to Gallas.
This was blatent cheating!!

So, let me see if I follow you.

One of them did something that you say was

absolute illegal

, and the other did something that you call

blatant cheating

, but yet you say it's ludicrous to compare them.


Why is

absolute illegal

any different to

blatant cheating

?


Note: I'm not referring in any way to the incidents in question themselves. I'm referring to the words you chose to use to describe the incidents, and why you think

absolute illegal

and

blatant cheating

amount to different things.

rpurfield

just to add im not saying it was right what happened in 2010 but clinging onto it wont help louth achieve sod all!!

Nesta99

Whaaaat? You have never played any sport then lad... as to be in a dressing room prior to a match (of any code) 'their beatle crawled up the wall quicker than ours so go out their and show them'! It is probably single handedly closed the gap between Louth Gaa and other counties as a massive motivating factor! wont help achieve sod all my aras...used and abused!!

Nesta99

Ok kormak is saying one event, in France was premeditated = cheating!
One event in Croke Park was an instinctive attempt to get the ball across the line legally but was a fail - no intent = absolution.

fine lines? choice of words or not..;)

kormak

locum-motion wrote: »

So, let me see if I follow you.

One of them did something that you say was , and the other did something that you call , but yet you say it's ludicrous to compare them.


Why is any different to ?


Note: I'm not referring in any way to the incidents in question themselves. I'm referring to the words you chose to use to describe the incidents, and why you think and amount to different things.

BOTH goals were absolute illegal!
Thierry's method was blatant cheating...
Joe's method was oppurtunistic desperation...

I think that's pretty self explainatory?? :cool:

southlouth type

One of the main reasons its still in people minds is that it was our one opportunity and the first for decades to win a leinster title . If the shoe was on the other foot and we cheated to win against Meath despite the fact that another Leinster for Meath would not have meant as much as it would for us you would NEVER let it go ! Meath people do not realise how devastated people where after that game . Grown men crying it meant that much to them . And Nesta FECK OFF LOL !

locum-motion

kormak wrote: »

BOTH goals were absolute illegal!
Thierry's method was blatant cheating...
Joe's method was oppurtunistic desperation...

I think that's pretty self explainatory?? :cool:

My point is that there is no difference between the two. A person who knowingly does something contrary to the laws of the game they are playing (be it Gaelic football, soccer or tiddlywinks) in order to gain an advantage is cheating.

In my book, illegal and cheating are one and the same thing.

To excuse one of the two because;
a) he was desparate,
b) an opportunity presented itself and
c) he was on your team as opposed to the opposition
is to condone cheating.

a) & b) above can both be applied to Henry just as much as Joe Whatshisface, by the way.

Assuming that you're a Meathman, the only difference between the two incidents was c). Thierry was playing against your team, Joe was playing for your team.

All you are doing is trying to find a form of words that justifies cheating when it's your own team that does it.

kormak

locum-motion wrote: »

My point is that there is no difference between the two. A person who knowingly does something contrary to the laws of the game they are playing (be it Gaelic football, soccer or tiddlywinks) in order to gain an advantage is cheating.

In my book, illegal and cheating are one and the same thing.

To excuse one of the two because;
a) he was desparate,
b) an opportunity presented itself and
c) he was on your team as opposed to the opposition
is to condone cheating.

a) & b) above can both be applied to Henry just as much as Joe Whatshisface, by the way.

Assuming that you're a Meathman, the only difference between the two incidents was c). Thierry was playing against your team, Joe was playing for your team.

All you are doing is trying to find a form of words that justifies cheating when it's your own team that does it.

Ah here! would ye give it a rest...
I am a proud Meathman and stated already in this thread. I also live in Louth and have to rare my kid as a Louthman, so I've nowt against the Wee County either.
I'm not gonna get dragged into petty arguments over this match again either... best to let sleeping dogs lie! :rolleyes:

Nesta99

kormak wrote: »

I also live in Louth and have to rare my kid as a Louthman

:eek: You make raising your kid as a Louthman sound like it makes you feel dirty lol it is not a disease... (it might be a curse though)

L-M makes his point well and i'd be interested in your counter-point, rather than seeming to run from a losing argument.

The way i see it is that the only difference arguably is Joe Sheridan attempted to score legally but made a mess of it, the score was awarded but i have yet to hear him say that it shouldnt have been implying he knew well what he had done/was doing.

I can understand why you would want sleeping dogs to lie, but im finding it interesting on opinions where the point between cheating stops and starts - these two incidents are perfect for this. I think the reason for the square ball and incompetent referreeing and umpiring are not factoring is because it is the conduct of players that is of most consideration.

Southlouth Type you took the bait in the cheeky manner it was intended;) lol Fair play! - no pun intended..

purehoor

rpurfield wrote: »

just to add im not saying it was right what happened in 2010 but clinging onto it wont help louth achieve sod all!!

fact is meath fans want us to stop going on about it because ye are ashamed of how ye got that trophy and hate being reminded of the injustice. guilt and shame are natural feelings!!!

kormak

Nesta99 wrote: »

:eek: You make raising your kid as a Louthman sound like it makes you feel dirty lol it is not a disease... (it might be a curse though)

L-M makes his point well and i'd be interested in your counter-point, rather than seeming to run from a losing argument.

The way i see it is that the only difference arguably is Joe Sheridan attempted to score legally but made a mess of it, the score was awarded but i have yet to hear him say that it shouldnt have been implying he knew well what he had done/was doing.

I can understand why you would want sleeping dogs to lie, but im finding it interesting on opinions where the point between cheating stops and starts - these two incidents are perfect for this. I think the reason for the square ball and incompetent referreeing and umpiring are not factoring is because it is the conduct of players that is of most consideration.

Southlouth Type you took the bait in the cheeky manner it was intended;) lol Fair play! - no pun intended..

It is not a disease... it's an infestation!! LOL
Sure I could give you my 2 cents about Big Joe Sheridan’s goal but with everyone viewing this thread with Red n White tinted glasses, I doubt I’d get too far...

For the record, the Meath team offered a replay at the time, only to revoke it again due to some of the despicable behaviour of a small minority of Louth “fans” threatening players, coaches, ex-managers and just about anyone who was from Co.Meath!!! In particular arriving at the County Club, Dunshaughlin that night, where the team were camped.
I understand people felt cheated, but nothing excuses this sort of thuggish behaviour regardless of any football match.

It’s a miscarriage of justice folks. There are lots of them in sport. Most Meath fans accept and apologies for the Leinster final... but even after all of this, some Louth fans STILL insist on going on and on and on and on.... Zzzzzzz

Hammer Archer

purehoor wrote: »

fact is meath fans want us to stop going on about it because ye are ashamed of how ye got that trophy and hate being reminded of the injustice. guilt and shame are natural feelings!!!

You keep thinking that so :rolleyes:

purehoor

Denile is not just a river in egypt:rolleyes:

locum-motion

Since we're stating things 'for the record';

I couldn't give 2 flyings fcuks what happened in any GAA match, ever*, nor in any soccer match either. Rugby's the only game I have any opinion upon. I certainly don't look upon the incident in question through 'red & white tinted glasses'. I specifically said that I wasn't referring to the Sheridan and Henry incidents themselves. The questions I asked were about YOUR choice of words, and why you think 'doing something illegal' is not the same as 'cheating'.

If anyone is watching through spectacles tinted in their team's colours, it is you, my friend!

* or at least, not since 2002, when a different incident (coincidentally also in a Louth v Meath fixture), made me decide that the GAA wasn't worthy of my attention. I haven't watched more than about 30 seconds of a GAA match since.

kormak wrote: »

It is not a disease... it's an infestation!! LOL
Sure I could give you my 2 cents about Big Joe Sheridan’s goal but with everyone viewing this thread with Red n White tinted glasses, I doubt I’d get too far...

For the record, the Meath team offered a replay at the time, only to revoke it again due to some of the despicable behaviour of a small minority of Louth “fans” threatening players, coaches, ex-managers and just about anyone who was from Co.Meath!!! In particular arriving at the County Club, Dunshaughlin that night, where the team were camped.
I understand people felt cheated, but nothing excuses this sort of thuggish behaviour regardless of any football match.

It’s a miscarriage of justice folks. There are lots of them in sport. Most Meath fans accept and apologies for the Leinster final... but even after all of this, some Louth fans STILL insist on going on and on and on and on.... Zzzzzzz

southlouth type

Here is what Sheridan should have done :eek:

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/the-amazingly-honest-marius-ebbers-st-pauli-gets-the-ref-to-rule-out-his-hand-of-god-goal-vs-union-berlin/

Nesta99

I agree Kormak, the moment that some Louth supporters showed such thuggery i thought well there goes the chances of a good will replay now! I was furious about it too tbh. I also believe the the total gentleman that is Sean Boylan got a bit of a shoving about too, he wasnt in the best of health at that time either - total disgrace.

I would say more an infection-if you are a Meath man living in Louth it is your good selves infesting our wee county:D

L-M are you willing to elaborate on the 2002 incident by any chance?

For the record myself, i'm not a huge GAA fan in that i'm not involved in any club football or ever was. I do have an interest in intercounty comps. I am a soccer person really, indeed nearly any sport (background in sports science), but rugby is really the most interesting of sport, not just recent successes, but the way that such a technical games is reffed and the pure respect that players have for the match officials and comradery between fellow supporters.

kormak

locum-motion wrote: »

Since we're stating things 'for the record';

I couldn't give 2 flyings fcuks what happened in any GAA match, ever*, nor in any soccer match either. Rugby's the only game I have any opinion upon. I certainly don't look upon the incident in question through 'red & white tinted glasses'. I specifically said that I wasn't referring to the Sheridan and Henry incidents themselves. The questions I asked were about YOUR choice of words, and why you think 'doing something illegal' is not the same as 'cheating'.

If anyone is watching through spectacles tinted in their team's colours, it is you, my friend!

* or at least, not since 2002, when a different incident (coincidentally also in a Louth v Meath fixture), made me decide that the GAA wasn't worthy of my attention. I haven't watched more than about 30 seconds of a GAA match since.

Listen locum-motion... your logic for the sake of an argument is a tad bit pathetic.
I think I’ve already made my point and stand by it.
Joe Sheridan was left sitting in front of a wide open goal with the ball in his hands and a last minute scramble going on around him. He says he made an effort to kick it, but ended up effectively throwing it across the line. Regardless of what county he is from, any player in the entire GAA given that situation would have attempted the very same.
You’re saying that it was an illegal goal (which it was), therefore it’s cheating?!
So what about the player who takes more than 5 steps in a run towards goal... Is he a cheat?! Or the player who may have been marginally inside a square when he tapped in a goal... is he a cheat? Or perhaps the try scorer that didn’t actually connect his full body with the ball on the try line but the try was somehow given... is HE a cheat??
Henry was a very different story (and I think the whole world and his mother knows that...)
So to answer YOUR question again for the final time... Not every player that succeeds with making an illegal score, move etc... without willingly setting out to do so is a cheat.
However someone (Henry/Maradonna) that knowingly pre-empts a move on goal is a Cheat!!!
End of story.... :rolleyes:

locum-motion

kormak wrote: »

Listen locum-motion... your logic for the sake of an argument is a tad bit pathetic.

Logic is logic. It is not pathetic. It is unchanging and immutable. If you want to debate differently, head off to a Philosophy forum.

kormak wrote: »

I think I’ve already made my point and stand by it.
Joe Sheridan was left sitting in front of a wide open goal with the ball in his hands and a last minute scramble going on around him. He says he made an effort to kick it, but ended up effectively throwing it across the line. Regardless of what county he is from, any player in the entire GAA given that situation would have attempted the very same.

I've already stated twice that I'm not talking about the incident. I'm talking about what you said. However, since you persist in bringing it up, you're saying it was an accident. OK, then. I believe you (that is: I believe that you sincerely believe that it was an accident).

kormak wrote: »

You’re saying that it was an illegal goal (which it was), therefore it’s cheating?!

What I said before was that, in my opinion, "A person who knowingly does something contrary to the laws of the game they are playing (be it Gaelic football, soccer or tiddlywinks) in order to gain an advantage is cheating." I've bolded an important bit here this time, that I didn't bold before.

kormak wrote: »

So what about the player who takes more than 5 steps in a run towards goal... Is he a cheat?!

If he knew he was doing it, yes. If he said to himself "Ah, sure everybody else always gets away with taking 7 steps, so I'll just slip in an extra one or two meself", then yes, he is a cheat. He is knowingly breaking the rules of the game to gain an advantage.
If there's a bit of a stumble because of a clash with another player, and he's making a genuine effort to solo/bounce/pass the ball before his sixth step, then no, I wouldn't consider that cheating. (Nevertheless, the ref should still pull him up on it and award a free against him. Even if you don't actually do it deliberately, breaking the rules should be penalised)

kormak wrote: »

Or the player who may have been marginally inside a square when he tapped in a goal... is he a cheat?

Not sure that that's a good example; we all know it's difficult for a player to judge it so that he doesn't arrive before the ball, so if he's making a reasonable effort not to, but misjudges it, then no, he's not cheating but nevertheless he has broken the rules and should be whistled up on it. If he's deliberately trying to exploit the fact that referees can't always judge it either, and making an effort to get there early (or not making an effort not to get there early), then yes, he is cheating.

kormak wrote: »

Or perhaps the try scorer that didn’t actually connect his full body with the ball on the try line but the try was somehow given... is HE a cheat??

Not sure what you mean here; you don't have to connect your full body with the ball to score a try, you just have to put downward pressure on the ball. However, lets just say the player is attempting to score a try, but doesn't do so, but the ref awards it anyway.
Again, it comes down to the players intention. If he was genuinely attempting to score legally but failed for some reason, then he is not cheating. If he is attempting to 'pull the wool over the refs eyes' and score illegally, then, yes, he is cheating.

kormak wrote: »

Henry was a very different story (and I think the whole world and his mother knows that...)

Yep, that was cheating. We agree on that!


Notwithstanding all of the above, I believe that a person who doesn't set out to cheat, but nevertheless scores a goal/point/try/home run/whatever illegally, and who then fails to own up to it, then becomes a cheat.

• Our player above who sort of stumbled and took seven steps, should say "Sorry, Ref, no goal"
• The guy who misjudged the speed of the ball into the square; same.
• A rugby player stretching out his arm for the line who knows that he dropped the ball forward without scoring; Yep, he should own up too.
• And Sheridan should have told the ref that the goal was illegal.

In these cases, the player hasn't set out to cheat, but has failed to take the honest & honourable course of action and accepts an advantage that was unfairly awarded. Yes, in my book, that's a form of cheating too.


And finally:

kormak wrote: »

So to answer YOUR question again for the final time... Not every player that succeeds with making an illegal score, move etc... without willingly setting out to do so is a cheat.
However someone (Henry/Maradonna) that knowingly pre-empts a move on goal is a Cheat!!!
End of story.... :rolleyes:

Unless I've missed something, this is the first time you've introduced the words 'willingly' & 'knowingly' into your arguments. Whereas they've been in mine the whole time.
We could have saved alot of trouble if you'd said "Sorry, L-M, I meant 'knowingly'..." 16 posts ago!


ps: FYI:
'Diving' in the box = cheating.
The soccer player who raises his hands in the air when the ball goes off the pitch in a pathetic attempt to convince the ref "It came off the other fella, honest!" = cheating.

kormak

Thanks locum-motion....