What type of renewable energy is this?

NIMAN

http://www.sweeneyrenewables.com/coolwex-extreme/

Can't seem to figure it out, but then again I know little about this kind of stuff.

It mentioned solar, but there's no panels involved.
Heat pump mentioned too. From what I gather it uses cool air to heat water? Is that right?
Surely if its in a room in your house, that room is going to get very cold?

Lot of good testimonials.

Is it too good to be true?

Edit: just did a bit of Googling and YouTube videos and its a bit clearer now. When they say it has a refrigeration unit involved, is this like the one you can get installed on your roof instead of solar panels?

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

http://www.sweeneyrenewables.com/coolwex-extreme/

Can't seem to figure it out, but then again I know little about this kind of stuff.

It mentioned solar, but there's no panels involved.
Heat pump mentioned too. From what I gather it uses cool air to heat water? Is that right?
Surely if its in a room in your house, that room is going to get very cold?

Lot of good testimonials.

Is it too good to be true?

Edit: just did a bit of Googling and YouTube videos and its a bit clearer now. When they say it has a refrigeration unit involved, is this like the one you can get installed on your roof instead of solar panels?

The room temperture will drop about 6 degrees other than that I think there great(I do work for a firm that manufactures another type:)) I like them because they do what they say on the tin and a bad installation won't effect performance unlike heat pumps for houses, ours cost about 60 cents to heat from cold 200 litres to 55 degrees and 24 cent on night rate.

antoinolachtnai

How much would that much water cost to heat with gas or with an electric heating coil though? I don't think there would be that much difference during the day.

What sort of money does it cost for the unit?

antoinolachtnai

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I don't think there would be that much difference during the day.

wouldn't that be relative to the installion? I see lots of installations where the heating is still on in summer when hot water only is required.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What sort of money does it cost for the unit?

For tech like this €1600-€2,500 as a guess

There are situations were this type of cylinder would work and others where it wouldn't, if water is heated from a immersion then that immersion is running at 3kw where the heatpump is running at .75 kw giving just under 3 kw of heat.

antoinolachtnai

Gas is pretty cheap to heat water, especially if you already own a boiler. and you are going to need a boiler anyway.

If the ratio is only 1:4 you are probably better off heating with gas because a kwh of heat from gas is going to cost a bit more than what a kwh of electricity would cost. Nightsaver makes it a bit better but lower temperatures at night are going to make it less effective.

Another issue is recovery time, ie the time it would take to reheat the tank. I would guess it is quite slow. In practice being able to reheat quickly will save you money because you will only run the heat when you actually need it.

For 2000 euros you could run your immersion for an hour a day for a couple of years. And there would be nothing mechanical to go wrong.

I am sure there are circumstances where this might be economic but I can't think what they might be.

antoinolachtnai

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Gas is pretty cheap to heat water, especially if you already own a boiler. and you are going to need a boiler anyway.

Not everybody has NATGAS.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If the ratio is only 1:4 you are probably better off heating with gas because a kwh of heat from gas is going to cost a bit more than what a kwh of electricity would cost.

With other heat sources you have to factor in the that unless you have a combi you will have heat loss that can make heating a cylinder more expensive than you might imagine.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Another issue is recovery time, ie the time it would take to reheat the tank. I would guess it is quite slow.

4hrs for 200lts is more than adequate for a domestic requirement, a unvented cylinder will only lose 1deg c over 24 hrs.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

In practice being able to reheat quickly will save you money because you will only run the heat when you actually need it.

Wouldn't the cost be dependent on the water drawn as it would use the same energy to reheat whether you used it quickly or slowly.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

For 2000 euros you could run your immersion for an hour a day.

They are 200 ltr+ unvented cylinders 1 hr isn't going to heat much;) and they are unvented cylinders which aren't cheap to start with.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I am sure there are circumstances where this might be economic but I can't think what they might be.

A house with a heatpump and requires hot water that's economic.

antoinolachtnai

For an unvented cylinder, you will need a pump to pressurize the sustem, which is another expense.

Heating with oil won't be much more expensive than natural gas.

By my reckoning, 3 KWh is enough to raise 200l of waters by 17 degrees celsius. During the summer this is most of what you need. The recovery time is a lot faster. And gas or oil heating would be much cheaper.

It does depend on the speed at which you draw water. But most households draw most of their hot water in spurts.

As you say there is a cost to heating a cylinder. With this system you also incur this type of cost to run the heat pump.

If you like the idea of doing this, fair enough, but I can't see anything economic about it.

If the house doesn't have a gas boiler already, maybe there is some sense. On the whole though I think an immersion on nightsaver or alternatively solar would be a better NPV.

But maybe I can be proven wrong.

A.

JohnnieK

I suppose the theory behind it is to keep the cylinder at a constant temperature and 60 cent a day to do this is very economical. If the heat up time is 4 hrs for a 200 l from cold I imagine it would be well able to keep up with the average family. I yet to see a 200 L cylinder be completely used in one sitting. I would imagine it would cost more fore oil or gas to keep the cylinder ticking over all day. Each to there own I suppose.

antoinolachtnai

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

For an unvented cylinder, you will need a pump to pressurize the sustem,

No, unvented cylinders can be used on a open system

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Heating with oil won't be much more expensive than natural gas.

I disagree, I have access to both solar and these cylinders, I will fit one of these cylinders over solar when I have the money and I have oil.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

By my reckoning, 3 KWh is enough to raise 200l of waters by 17 degrees celsius. During the summer this is most of what you need. The recovery time is a lot faster.

these cylinders have a similar performance to a 3 kw element but cost .75kw to run,( €2 a night to heat from cold for a 3kw, 50 cents a night to heat from cold for .75kw)

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

And gas or oil heating would be much cheaper.

some yes, some no, also factor in the electricity these appliances draw when running, you would have to add that to the calculations.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

As you say there is a cost to heating a cylinder. With this system you also incur this type of cost to run the heat pump.

yes, but it all comes down to what it costs, there are a lot of heating systems that don't need this type of cylinder but there are some that will have reduced cost because of it, it's just another tool for installers when designing a heating system.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If the house doesn't have a gas boiler already, maybe there is some sense. On the whole though I think an immersion on nightsaver or alternatively solar would be a better NPV.

I think these cylinders will be fitted instead of solar, the pay back with solar is 5 years, the payback with these is 3 years,(that what the salesmen say and iv never known one to lie:D), with solar it's only as good as the installer fitting it, bad installers can mess up a solar installation, these cylinders can not have there performance effected if fitted badly as they are like a fridge with everything within a casing.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

But maybe I can be proven wrong.

I don't think it's matter of proving you wrong and I don't pretend to have the answers, it's new technology and should be questioned to see what it's uses are, a lot of what you said is right and up against a decent heating system these have no place, but it's something that could be useful to some domestic and commercial situations I have seen over the years

antoinolachtnai

6 or 7 kwh is more like what it will take to heat 200l by 30 degrees. Call it 8. It's only 80c a night.

(200kgrams of water requires 200kcalories to heat one degree. To heat 30 degreesi needs 6 megacalories. A kwh is about 864000 calories. )

If this unit can do it for 20c a night and can do it 250 nights a year that's a saving of 150 euros a year. It will take it a while to pay back at that rate.

Can it really achieve that performance? I'd like to see the evidence. It is certainly possible. Can it do it with zero maintenance? Again, questions to be thought about. Who will fix this thing if it breaks?

It is certainly possible to mis-install this. If you put one in my house as direct replacement for the cylinder,, it seems to me that it would prolong the central heating season because it would cool the house.

I am sure it has a place, don't get me wrong. I am all for trying crazy new things. Maybe I am overly cynical about this. It is important to go through the numbers.

antoinolachtnai

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

6 or 7 kwh is more like what it will take to heat 200l by 30 degrees. Call it 8. It's only 80c a night.

(200kgrams of water requires 200kcalories to heat one degree. To heat 30 degreesi needs 6 megacalories. A kwh is about 864000 calories. )

If this unit can do it for 20c a night and can do it 250 nights a year that's a saving of 150 euros a year. It will take it a while to pay back at that rate.

Assuming 30 degrees is all that's required:)

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Can it really achieve that performance? I'd like to see the evidence. It is certainly possible. Can it do it with zero maintenance? Again, questions to be thought about. Who will fix this thing if it breaks?

Me:D.(5 year warranty) Also these cylinders will require the same service/checks as with most unvented cylinders.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is certainly possible to mis-install this. If you put one in my house as direct replacement for the cylinder,, it seems to me that it would prolong the central heating season because it would cool the house.

my one requires a vent to outside or it will reduces the temperture by 6 degrees, I tend to be on hand for installers of my products to prevent faux pars but I did forgot to factor in fruitloops:o

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is important to go through the numbers.

I agree.

heinbloed

This miracle machine has the air-side heat exchanger build into/onto the insulating shell. Like putting the hot filled thermos flask into the fridge.....

To answer the OPs question:

" When they say it has a refrigeration unit involved, is this like the one you can get installed on your roof instead of solar panels? "

Certainly NO. this machine cools it's content (the DHW) and the sourrounding air. Something for the North-African market where an airco and DHW supply might be needed from 1 machine due to lack of space.
But not suitable for a standard Irish domestic installation within a heated fabric.
See

http://www.sweeneyrenewables.com/coolwex-extreme/benefits/




"

The thermal exchanger is built into the external coat of the container preventing the coolant from leaking into the sanitary water.

"



At the OP: get everything in writing. This web page holds no facts, check out what an energy label means in the HP market and to what EN standard they actually refer to.

Since HP and DHW manufacturing and storage tank come in one unit no valid energy labelling exists.

Similar devices had been spoken about here in the forum, these threads had been locked. Vested interests.

Contact a civil engineer, a heating engineer or similar and get the laws of physics explained. Nothing comes from nothing.

The fogged-up windows shown at

http://www.sweeneyrenewables.com/coolwex-extreme/

are real, cold surfaces will call for condensation. This is not what is wanted in a house. And for external installations (shed, garden)these things need to be frost proof, ask the manufacturer for this.

Quote:

In addition to hot water collected you can also cool the air in the room in which the heat pump is located or the neighbouring one.

Here 1 of the locked threads:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76001591

The review propably never happened.

heinbloed

Gary71 tells us in this thread:

Me.(5 year warranty) Also these cylinders will require the same service/checks as with most unvented cylinders.

Please tell us something more about the involved maintenance and the (anual?) costs involved.


Gary71 further states in response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by antoinolachtnai
6 or 7 kwh is more like what it will take to heat 200l by 30 degrees. Call it 8. It's only 80c a night.

(200kgrams of water requires 200kcalories to heat one degree. To heat 30 degreesi needs 6 megacalories. A kwh is about 864000 calories. )

If this unit can do it for 20c a night and can do it 250 nights a year that's a saving of 150 euros a year. It will take it a while to pay back at that rate.

Assuming 30 degrees is all that's required

30 degrees for what? The thermal carrier R134? The surface of the heatexchanger? Certainly not the DHW temperature ?!

heinbloed

Here we see a strange installation:

http://www.sweeneyrenewables.com/wpsr/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/placement_1.jpg

The windows are closed but the machine needs 500m3 of air to draw. Within a closed room?

Here we see an illegal installation:

http://www.sweeneyrenewables.com/wpsr/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/placement_2.jpg

No one is allowed to create a vacuum in a boiler room.

Here we see another propably illegal installation:

http://www.sweeneyrenewables.com/wpsr/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/placement_3.jpg

Taking air from a closed room works only to a certain amount, an underpressure will be created. But opening the window or hacking a hole into the wall would be against the building regulations,conservation of energy.

Heat pump sellers.....

DGOBS

I know nothing of this appliance, but do notice the lack of any business address or landline number, would always ring alarm bells with me!

Damn you Heinbloed, your powers of logic have defeated me again.

dathi

lads how can this system make any savings in winter it takes air that you have heated with your central heating and transfers it with a heat pump to your water tank. so the cop of 3.5 is immaterial as you have already paid for oil/gas to heat the air and now you have to pay for electricity to move the heat to the water tank.

dathi

dathi wrote: »

lads how can this system make any savings in winter

they can work to -5c and they come with a immersion/coil as a back up when it drops below this.

dathi wrote: »

it takes air that you have heated with your central heating and transfers it with a heat pump to your water tank. so the cop of 3.5 is immaterial as you have already paid for oil/gas to heat the air and now you have to pay for electricity to move the heat to the water tank.

No, not all cylinders take air from the room, other manufactures require air to be taken from outside or the loft space which is how most domestic installations will be done, I would say only commercial installations could meet the requirements for taking air from a room in my opinion.

heinbloed

Correct, Dathi, nothing comes from nothing.
Hence my comparrisson with the thermosflask in the fridge.

A "heat pump " equipped with a compressor certified with a COP of 3.6 (or what ever) will not have a COP of the same. This is technically impossible.

Ask for the complete test protocoll and certificate of the entire equipment.

Sure gary71 will be able to provide us with a link to his prefered HP showing the complete test results from an independant lab confirming these. So we can compare trash with quality.....

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

Sure gary71 will be able to provide us with a link to his prefered HP showing the complete test results from an independant lab confirming these. So we can compare trash with quality.....

No, I don't like to promote my own stuff as my opinions on boards are my own and i'm off duty;)

I don't pretend to have all the answers on these cylinders as they are a new technology to me, I'm sure over time I'll learn a bit more which I am happy to share, do I think their the best thing since sliced bread, no:eek:, do I think they have any benefits, yes, based on what i'v read and the training i'v had, I wish to fit one when i can offord it, I have access to decent solar and I do not wish to fit solar.

As a technology these cylinders have been around for a few years but are only now becoming more main stream, I think over the next year we will see more large manufactures like mine making these cylinders, I don't think these company's would be investing in these cylinders if they were as gimmicky as some think, I think to believe just the positives would be as silly as believing just the negatives, I recon the truth is somewhere in between.

dathi

all right i was commenting on the system that the op had linked to that clearly shows the air being taken from within the thermal envelope . the cop of 3.5 is a measurement from lab testing when the input temperature and water output temp is constant.with systems with external components, at -3 the cop will be no where near that, it will rely on the immersion plus it will have to engage a defrost cycle on the external elements using more electricity. so 1kw of hot water will take more than 1kw to supply. as you say the truth is some where between the sales pitch and reality. but sometimes the sales pitches have to have holes poked in them.

JohnnieK

I think these cylinders are a good idea as an alternative to solar. Solar costs double or more to install than one of these and the pump station and controller all use electricity too so unless there is a case study done between the two it's hard to say which is best.

NIMAN

So how would this air-to-water system compare to the installation and running costs of this:

http://lvprenewables.ie/solar-panels/domestic-hot-water/


Edit: just thinking about the cost of installing one of these systems, say you were to spend €4k or so getting one in, surely €4k worth of immersion heating whenever you need it would last quite a few years??

heinbloed

NIMAN wrote:

" ...surely €4k worth of immersion heating whenever you need it would last quite a few years?? "

For many, many decades, NIMAN.

If anyone claims that one energy providing gimmik is cheaper than another ask for the written and signed guarantee. Ask for the guaranteed total costs per tapped liter of warm water over it's life time, a year or ten years or whatever.Total costs, including maintenance, spare parts, repairs and alternatives in case of (temporary) failure.
And you'll see the cowboys running.

There are energy providers who work on fixed prices. Who will do exactly what described: guarantee the total price over a fixed period for fixed amount of energy.

When we see cowboys using protected symbols like the solar key mark for their products which they are not entitled to use then we should report them to the authorities and get them behind bars.


( from http://lvprenewables.ie/solar-panels/domestic-hot-water/)


The solar key mark for example is only allowed to be used when a ST collector is used within the certified parameters - certified as shown in the solar key mark certificate.
This company you have linked uses the solar key mark for a ST collector certified to warm water. Not to be used as an evaporator for a heat pump, warming a gas. And that is what these cowboys are doing: running a gas through a water heater.

An illegal duping of the consumer that is.

The energy harvest is a different one, the physical behaviour is different. The solar key mark is not meant to be sticked to fridges and freezers.
Like using the car's tax plaquette/number plate/insurance from the neigbour's car for your own, a plain crime.

NIMAN

heinbloed

You make a good point, and one which I always had in the back of my head when looking at all these new energy sources.

Its all well and good saying that solar panels give you hot water 24hrs a day, free of charge.

First off, its hardly free if it costs €4k to install it (and thats not counting things going wrong in the future, needing parts etc).

Next, I don't need hot water 24/7, 365 days a year. Of course it would be nice to know that any time you hopped in the shower the water would be hot, but sure the water will be hot between 11pm and 6am, when its not needed at all.

Even with soaring electricity and oil prices, €4k heats a lot of water as you need it.

More worrying is the false advertising.

paddy147

You cant expect to get any sort of solar system installed by any company for free.People dont work for free and these items cost money,so it wont be free to install.


So complaining about paying out a fee to have a system installed is pointless.

NIMAN

Of course companies aren't going to put in hardware and their time for nothing, but bottom line for the consumer/purchaser is the overall cost.

Its this cost that someone like myself, who is considering some form of water heating, has to weigh up against the cost of simply using my immersion or letting my oil heating heat my water. €4k is a big outlay and if it was to cost me €3k for the next 20yrs to heat water using my existing options, then do the new systems look like such a good option?

heinbloed

Electricity prices at the energy exchanges are going down in fact, thanks to renewables delivering into the international electricity grid.

See here for some infos:

http://www.aecb.net/forum/index.php/topic,3529.0.html

So it makes absolutly no sense to install a micky mouse gimmik for a lot of money and to expect this to be 'paid-off' over the years via savings on future electricity prices.

Once a private owned PV panel will be paid-off it delivers for free for nearly no maintenance costs. And this comparrison (free versus costs) makes any comparrison between heat pump and direct resistance non-sense.

The prices for spare parts and maintenance (for toy ST systems an heat pumps and fuel boilers) will increase since diesel and petrol and coal and gas prices will increase.

Electricity is now starting to show a clear economic benefit over other forms of energy, the private and commercial generation costs are going down and all other energy prices are going up.
Be glad Ireland has no atomic power installed with eternal costs involved.
Like the usual other late-commers like France and the UK....


And as said: Zero costs lays-off all other "cheap, economical, green" employment schemes, ahem: thermal energy supplies these are.

Forget HP seller's arguments like: delivering warm water at a third of the price of direct resistance electricity. Since direct electricity can be got for free after initial purchases costs are paid.
And PV installations become cheaper every day.

Replacing gas for space and DHW heating (from a cost point of view) is expected by most analysts at about 2022. That is per kWh purchased from the grid.

Comparing total costs (apliances,replacements,maintenance, metering, CO2tax, VAT etc.) will see self-made electricity directly consumed for resistance heating being cheaper than gas or oil or timber. That is expected from about 2017.

PV without battery storage, directly consumed at the point of production, is already cheaper than purchased from the grid.

DGOBS

I have to agree with Solar PV, as the tech there is moving forward and the panels are getting better (and cheaper) I would certainly be where I would spend my money, afterall, in the summer once solar-water has heated the tank, your just trying to get rid of the rest! where with PV is your not consuming it, your selling it.

With regard to whichever system, payback times maybe long, maybe even break even or worse, but I do believe there is also the moral obligation for our generation to move in these directions to improve what we are doing to the planet (I do have my tree-hugging moments!)

paddy147

DGOBS wrote: »

I have to agree with Solar PV, as the tech there is moving forward and the panels are getting better (and cheaper) I would certainly be where I would spend my money, afterall, in the summer once solar-water has heated the tank, your just trying to get rid of the rest! where with PV is your not consuming it, your selling it.

With regard to whichever system, payback times maybe long, maybe even break even or worse, but I do believe there is also the moral obligation for our generation to move in these directions to improve what we are doing to the planet (I do have my tree-hugging moments!)

I have the LVP solar system installed.
Im very happy with it,in the 10 months that I have it so far.

Absolutelty flawless and constant hot water.
My gas central heating system heats up so much faster now aswell.It also helps that the house is completely insulated internally too with 80mm insulated slab throughout.Attic spaces are spray foamed with bio-foam 800 open cell and the ceilings are slabbed out with insulated slab too.

Im only a customer,and I dont have any link to LVP,apart from being a normal customer..

Im trying to do my bit for the future,and Im also about to go for an underground rainwater harvesting system too.

I mean as a well known supermarket says in its ads...."Every little helps".:)

Best Regards.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

Its this cost that someone like myself, who is considering some form of water heating, has to weigh up against the cost of simply using my immersion or letting my oil heating heat my water. €4k is a big outlay and if it was to cost me €3k for the next 20yrs to heat water using my existing options, then do the new systems look like such a good option?

It's all about costs, these cylinders are just another option when hot water requirements are looked at, if you drive alone you wouldn't buy a minibus, some people with high water demands will fit a hot water system that would be of no benefit to you.

The first thing you do when designing a hot water system is determine with the customers their requirement, not all manufactures or plumbers are looking to "con" their customers and these cylinders do serve a purpose.

If you were fitting a system that required a unvented cylinder or have a system with a unvented cylinder then the cost of a unvented cylinder with a heat pump is €1,500ish more then just the cylinder alone, the service requirements for these heat pump cylinders are to do with the cylinder side and not the heat pump side.

Cylinders with heat pumps have been around a few years and are mechanically proven. The technology behind these heat pumps is old, it's only when compressors became quite enough that cylinder manufactures decided to strapped one to a cylinder.