Tamboran presentation to Engineeers Ireland

garth-marenghi

Very very short notice but if there is anyone with concerns about Fracking now is your opportunity to question Richard Moorman. There is a presentation by Gas Company Tamboran to Engineers Ireland in about 15 mins!

Date(s) Wednesday, 4 April 2012 Time(s) 6:30PM Sharp Venue Engineers Ireland, 22 Clyde Road, Dublin 4


For those who make it here is a lecture by Professor (engineering) Anthony Ingraffea of Cornell University to counter what Moorman and Co had to say.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSWmXpEkEPg
http://vivo.cornell.edu/display/individual23267

godtabh

If any one is interested and missed it they usually record them and put them on their website.

Having just looked at their website it has changed so couldnt tell you where they are but they are there some where

CatFromHue

It says on their site that you can register to watch this live. If you go to the events page and this event at the bottom their is a link to register.

Waestrel

jsut back from this, very informative and very positively received.

CatFromHue

I saw a bit of it on the Engineers Ireland website. They seemed to be able to answer all the questions put to them from what I could hear anyway.

tuppence

The company have a new Public relations company behind them and are strategically and cynically picking off interest groups with promises of money (invesments funds) and jobs. They held a closed meeting with engineers in Sligo last week, that neither the public or the media were let in to. This week its Dublin. Of course they are well rehearsed, it is in their vested interests to be so. I'd appeal to you to please read peer reviewed evidence that is being constantly updated on this issue before just taking the company line. As a member of the community in the area that will be directly effected by this, we have genuine concerns. I really hope that people can learn from mistakes elsewhere. This is a national issue and warrants a national debate.

Heres a recent topical piece from visiting german politician.
http://www.mylocalnews.ie/articles/529/13/love-leitrim-260567/don-t-sell-your-soul-to-gas-companies-37599/

And heres some peer revewed research to digest and springboard from
http://frackingfreeireland.org/reports/

Regards

Tuppence

godtabh

are you saying they bribed engineers ireland to host their lecture? clarify your commets or i will have to delete it

tuppence

godtabh wrote: »

are you saying they bribed engineers ireland to host their lecture? clarify your commets or i will have to delete it

No, you are misinterprating. In general they are promising jobs and monies to everyone and in most cases it appears inflated projections. Nope no suggestion of bribery for this particular event.

It is unfortunate the engineering association couldnt have a more rounded unbiast debate on this as the topic of hydraluic fracturing dictates. I would hope that they would seize the opportuntiy in the future to do this.

mrmeindl

tuppence wrote: »

No, you are misinterprating. In general they are promising jobs and monies to everyone and in most cases it appears inflated projections. Nope no suggestion of bribery for this particular event.

It is unfortunate the engineering association couldnt have a more rounded unbiast debate on this as the topic of hydraluic fracturing dictates. I would hope that they would seize the opportuntiy in the future to do this.

Were you at the lecture?

If you weren't you are in no position to call anything biased or non biased.

Waestrel

tuppence wrote: »

No, you are misinterprating. In general they are promising jobs and monies to everyone and in most cases it appears inflated projections. Nope no suggestion of bribery for this particular event.

It is unfortunate the engineering association couldnt have a more rounded unbiast debate on this as the topic of hydraluic fracturing dictates. I would hope that they would seize the opportuntiy in the future to do this.

What are you talking about? There was many sensible and technical questions asked of the speaker, who answered them in detail. What would you have liked? It was well received because what he said made sense, and the audience was of a mind to understand it.

spideog7

Will it be up online at some stage? I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of these companies say one thing and do another but I'd like to see what they have to say all the same.

garth-marenghi

Waestrel wrote: »

What are you talking about? There was many sensible and technical questions asked of the speaker, who answered them in detail. What would you have liked? It was well received because what he said made sense, and the audience was of a mind to understand it.

Thought it was obvious what Tuppence would have wanted. Somebody to give an alternative viewpoint on Fracking rather than just have someone with a huge vested financial interest in the project. Surely it would have been a more rounded deabte but I assume Engineers Ireland will afford the same opportunity to those with concerns about fracking to address members.

Groups like Engineers Ireland have a huge role in asking expert questions about the process and helping protect the interests of the public. Was there any points of controversy last night? Im worried that the general consensus seems to be Moorman did well and that is to be expected as anyone who has met him will tell you how disarmingly smooth he is and by his own admission has received a lot of PR training. Again I would point you to the lecture by Professor Anthony Ingraffea in my first post to get the alternative point of view.

Did anyone ask him why the company he previously worked for, South Western Energy, is now the subject of numerous lawssuits? http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2011/05/24/nb-southwestern-lawsuit-hydro-fracking-551.html

garth-marenghi

mrmeindl wrote: »

Were you at the lecture?

If you weren't you are in no position to call anything biased or non biased.

I wasnt at this particular lecture but anyone here in the North-West has had plenty of opportunities to hear Mr Moorman speak at lots of public meetings and in the media. Did you attend any of the public events held in Carrick on Shannon involving Tamboran? If you did you would hear ever changing stories about the amount of jobs the industry will or will not create, how Fracking will be chemical free even though this has never been done before to then admitting they will use chemicals at a latter stage in the process etc.

Did you attend the lecture last night? If he wasnt been biase im assuming he talked openly about the potential risks, negative experiences of other countries, the size of the project and land consumption, how it has never been done chemical free before etc?

godtabh

This reeks of nimbyism.

You obviously dont agree with the procedure as it is in your back yard.

Given that the lecture was hosted by an engineering organization the audience wouldnt be taken in by a PR stunt but would challenge the technical aspect of the techniques used.

The underlying tone of this thread so far is that Engineers Ireland have been taken in by Tamboran. Given that this thread was created to discuss the lecture I expect the remainder of the thread to discuss the lecture itself. I believe there is another thread about fracking else where. Any more off topic posts and I will be locking this one and/or bans.

garth-marenghi

godtabh wrote: »

This reeks of nimbyism.

You obviously dont agree with the procedure as it is in your back yard.

Given that the lecture was hosted by an engineering organization the audience wouldnt be taken in by a PR stunt but would challenge the technical aspect of the techniques used.

The underlying tone of this thread so far is that Engineers Ireland have been taken in by Tamboran. Given that this thread was created to discuss the lecture I expect the remainder of the thread to discuss the lecture itself. I believe there is another thread about fracking else where. Any more off topic posts and I will be locking this one and/or bans.

Who are you addressing? Me?
Its anything but nimbyism. How did you come to the concluison that its "obvious" that people dont agree because its our backyard? Thats an extremly unfair assumption without any basis. This is a national and indeed international issue and have always been at pains to stress that. I dont care if the Fracking is in Leitim or Laois, I would feel the same. Any potential incidents of contamination will impact on the entire country with reagrds to agriulture/tourism. There is nothing wrong with exercising extreme caution with this issue given our history of light touch regulation, the desire to make the quick buck, the experience of other countries, and the vast amount of peer reviewed research that raise serious questions about the process.People need to be convinced beyond any doubt that this is a safe process before it can go ahead. If you want to call that Nimbyism thats your point of view.

RE content of thread. Ive asked weree they any contraversial issues discussed and if he was questioned about his record with South-Western Energy.

Turbulent Bill

I don't see what the controversy is here. EI held a presentation from a clearly-identified commercial interest, with no explicit/implicit endorsement of his views. They've done similar on other controversial subjects like nuclear power. I wasn't at the talk nor do I know enough about fracking to have an educated opinion.

I think there should be a debate on the subject (on another thread godtabh!), but EI are under no obligation to hold balanced debates.

Waestrel

link to the video

https://engineersireland.webex.com/ec0605ld/eventcenter/recording/recordAction.do?theAction=poprecord&AT=pb&AT=pb&AT=pb&AT=pb&AT=pb&AT=pb&isurlact=true&isurlact=true&isurlact=true&isurlact=true&renewticket=0&renewticket=0&renewticket=0&renewticket=0&recordID=15660147&apiname=lsr.php&apiname=lsr.php&apiname=lsr.php&apiname=lsr.php&apiname=lsr.php&rKey=E96FC36AA703E008&rKey=E96FC36AA703E008&rKey=E96FC36AA703E008&rKey=E96FC36AA703E008&rKey=E96FC36AA703E008&rKey=E96FC36AA703E008&needFilter=false&needFilter=false&needFilter=false&needFilter=false&needFilter=false&format=short&format=short&&SP=EC&SP=EC&SP=EC&SP=EC&SP=EC&SP=EC&rID=15660147&rID=15660147&rID=15660147&rID=15660147&rID=15660147&rID=15660147&siteurl=engineersireland&actappname=ec0605ld&actappname=ec0605ld&actname=%2Feventcenter%2Fframe%2Fg.do&actname=%2Feventcenter%2Fframe%2Fg.do&rnd=0853397564&rnd=0853397564&rnd=0853397564&rnd=0853397564&rnd=0853397564&entappname=url0107ld&entappname=url0107ld&entappname=url0107ld&entappname=url0107ld&entactname=%2FnbrRecordingURL.do&entactname=%2FnbrRecordingURL.do&entactname=%2FnbrRecordingURL.do&entactname=%2FnbrRecordingURL.do

Waestrel

garth-marenghi wrote: »

Thought it was obvious what Tuppence would have wanted. Somebody to give an alternative viewpoint on Fracking rather than just have someone with a huge vested financial interest in the project. Surely it would have been a more rounded deabte but I assume Engineers Ireland will afford the same opportunity to those with concerns about fracking to address members.

Groups like Engineers Ireland have a huge role in asking expert questions about the process and helping protect the interests of the public. Was there any points of controversy last night? Im worried that the general consensus seems to be Moorman did well and that is to be expected as anyone who has met him will tell you how disarmingly smooth he is and by his own admission has received a lot of PR training. Again I would point you to the lecture by Professor Anthony Ingraffea in my first post to get the alternative point of view.

Did anyone ask him why the company he previously worked for, South Western Energy, is now the subject of numerous lawssuits? http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2011/05/24/nb-southwestern-lawsuit-hydro-fracking-551.html

No one is unaware of the fact that Tamboran exist to make a profit, however, they quoted, facts fugures, numbers any of which can be disputed by the opposition. But this is not what we have seen, we have not had hard figures on the possible damage done by fracking, instead we have had seen a lot of fear mongering, hand waving and anecdotal stories about burning taps.

At the lecture i was sitting next to a girl from the lough Allen area, who was very much opposed. A lot of her arguments against fracking used the word "believe" she did not believe that it was safe, did not believe water could be treated, did not believe it would not ruin the landscape. There s precious little any one can do, PR or not, to change their thinking on something held so close as to be considered a type of faith. And this is what it all comes down to, the irish semi religious attachment to land. Its not environmentalism, or anti capitalistic sentiments. Its land.

CatFromHue

From the bit I saw of the presentation the Tamboran guys freely admitted there had been bad practice in the past and that there were potential problems with fracking.

If I remember right they showed a graph that illustrated the water table, how far below it that they would be operating at, and the the distance between the water table and the penetration of the fracking fluid. They did admit there could be potential for contamination at the well head/vertical bore and the water table. They then later showed a diagram of the protection methods used at the well head.

Regarding the fracking fluid, if I remember right they said they wouldn't be using chemicals in the water, but this increased the power needed to compress the water.

I believe they said they would use local manufacturers as long as they could work to Tamborans required spec level. I'm not sure how many jobs would be created locally as I doubt the skills required for the drilling are in Ireland.

Waestrel

CatFromHue wrote: »

. I'm not sure how many jobs would be created locally as I doubt the skills required for the drilling are in Ireland.

They talked of training up local people, drilling and compressor operators are not that hard to train. I speak of experience in the Ozzie mining industry, some of their drillers could hardly walk and chew gum, but they did alright when it come to drilling.

tuppence

Hi yes this procedure however hasnt been done at a profitable level without chemicals apprarently. And if you up the pressure you up the noise level, one Canadian commentator Jessica Ernst who has given first hand information has likenened the noise generated to jet engines taking off....

Thats why there is an assumption that tamboran will just be doing the prep work. They havent a track record in this procedure as a company and are very small.


Jeepers I live in Leitrim and cant say I know anyone from beside Lough Allen! The Lough Allen Basin is a misnomer really as a title because it suggests a small area. There is licences for nine counties (incl Sligo, Leitrim, Donegal, Clare, Limerick, Kerry and Cork etc) on the western and South west seaboard so its far from a local issue. They are starting in Leitrim and Fermanagh but the accepted wisdom is that they will roll it out from there and once they gain a foothold.... The jobs issue has been moving all over the place from 600 to 2000, thats part of the problem the information delivered by the company has not been found as credible because of changing the goalposts...... But if you look at displacing other in the farming and tourism sectors your getting into negative jobs territory. Then its the type of menial jobs on the coldface that you are putting workers into, they tend to be the ones cleaning up the mess with potential health risks there too.
And then its about traffic and air pollution from diesel.

What you are essentially doing is industrialising rural landscapes. Its well known for its land consumption.
http://www.watersafe.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/jonah.jpg

And what of the indigenous sustainable industry, The north west has a nice eco tourism sector growing. And its the national issues we risk a farming industry thats worth 8.9 billion yearly if there were a spill with benzene. External markets dont differentiate between counties just reputation. Thats even before we go into risk of public health.
http://frackingfreeireland.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Bamberger_Oswald_NS22_revised_in_press.pdf

Alot of the problem is that there hasnt been alot of hard data as this industry has been let go unregulated in the USA and regulators are just now in a state of catch up. The companies have got people to sign non disclosure agreements as well, and many of the info that was coming out was from law cases while many again were settled out of court. There is independent university reports out there and they have for example linked methane levels in water with fracking amongst orther things, http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/05/02/1100682108.full.pdf
and increased green house gas emmissions so that environemental targets wont be met, if adopted and fines endured.
http://www.co-operative.coop/Corporate/Fracking/Shale%20gas%20update%20-%20full%20report.pdf

The Americans are in the process of a large Environmental Protection Agency report due in 2014. But even that has seen preliminary evidence in Wyomming linking the procedure to ground water contaimination., Pavillion.http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/0/EF35BD26A80D6CE3852579600065C94E

Pat Rabbittes commissoned the Irish EPA here to do an initial desk top piece of research of fracking (which is due out anyday) which they handed over to Aberdeen university to do.....

Cementing on bore holes, how safe now and in 20 /30 years after the industry is gone? The linked risk of earthquakes (eg Blackpool) now substantiated, and how is that going to effect the manmade infrastructure below. http://www.ewg.org/analysis/usgs-recent-earthquakes-almost-certainly-manmade
And the highly toxic "produced water" that has been bruoght up t the surface mixed with derivitives from below which needs to be stored and treated. That appears to be a key issue, pollution at storage sites and where to decontaminate it etc. American procedure in cases has been to get rid of it down teh ground again.
The company say they will use "very best practice" then that appears to be a consistent line with the industry and it hasnt stopped the incidences of pollution, cos practices tend to be operated by humans and they tend to be prone to error.

Anyway, what we are saying is that there is too many open questions and concerning questions about this procedure. And there is no proper regulatory procedures in place at an Irish and European level as admitted by recent Eurpoean report
http://frackingfreeireland.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/shale-gas-pe-464-425-final-eu-on-health.pdf



France and Bulgaria have a ban on it and there are moratoriums in many other duristicions.
Engineers like yourselves through the medium of meetings like the one been discussed in tandem with all of us from different walks of life can do their part and act as watch dogs. We cant afford to get this one wrong.

mrmeindl

They should just sell Leitrim to Shell/Tamboran and the money could be then used to pay off the national debt....

meenaghman

mrmeindl wrote: »

They should just sell Leitrim to Shell/Tamboran and the money could be then used to pay off the national debt....

I think you'll find George Osborne has that one sewn up already - my understanding was he wanted Monaghan and Cavan too but told Cowen he wasn't remotely interested in Donegal as collateral when they gave the 7 Billion loan.

godtabh

Last warning. Keep it on topic or posts will be deleted and people banned.

meenaghman

CatFromHue wrote: »

From the bit I saw of the presentation the Tamboran guys freely admitted there had been bad practice in the past and that there were potential problems with fracking.

If I remember right they showed a graph that illustrated the water table, how far below it that they would be operating at, and the the distance between the water table and the penetration of the fracking fluid. They did admit there could be potential for contamination at the well head/vertical bore and the water table. They then later showed a diagram of the protection methods used at the well head.

The slide shown was for the Barnett shale. It showed the fracks can extend to 1500 -2000 feet above the well lateral depth. Given Moorman admitted earlier on that the Bundoran Shale is 500M to 1500M in depth (1650-5000ft) then surely this is proof that Fracking Leitrim and Fermanagh will perforate the Water table. Also this is only showing crack migration at the point of fracking. Anyone who's aware of subsidence knows the engineer comes to your house and marks the walls .. then comes back a while later to check the movement. This to me is the kicker here - The Shale is too shallow for this technology. Its all in the interpretation - And by the way Tamboran cannot control these fractures .. they can attempt to put more or less pressure into the well (and they'll be using more PSI because of more chemicals so potentially have less control).

meenaghman

A few other points - Bundoran Shale 100-200K acres - Total gas recoverable would tend to suggest 170K acres developed. Thats certainly outside the existing 70K acreage being talked about in N Leitrim / W Fermanagh. Mr Moorman suggested that once 3D seismic done, 60:40 Republic:Northern Ireland field moving more to Central Leitrim. BUT THEN shows slide 39 stating they're well away from SHANNON basin ? Central Leitrim is LOUGH ALLEN.

Slide 65 : The well casings don't matter a damn - Penn many 4 cased wells are leaking. Its not the amount of casings its the cement. The longer the laterals the harder to get cement right. I love the "advanced Engineering Cement" comment - it maybe, but there's still a failure rate of 1-2 percent on new wells, with up to 50 percent failure rate by year 30. Not much stated about the construction - have to pump cement down 4 inch lateral casing and it has to flow back up the annulus. My understanding is that while advances have been made in cement composition and in cementing procedures, there is no such thing as 100% infallibility.

Q&A session - unconventional .. done ourselves a disservice - no.. its not conventional. under conventional rules in the Barnett no wells allowed within 1280 ft of each other.. unconventional .. as close as they want. Mr Moorman talked about wells 50ft apart when talking about his well pad - when talking about multi-laterals he talked about extending by 30 feet to allow three wells in a row ? that means 15 feet apart. Indeed Multi-well pads with Long Laterals and SlickWater Fracking are only in use commercially since 2007 ( New York State Supplemental Generic Environmental Impact Statement), so they are novel.. ergo not conventional. Indeed the distance from well to water wells, to lease boundaries and to buildings (schools/houses) has all been adjusted to cater for unconventional gas.. And I think there in lies the problem. To get this gas to flow commercially requires an industrialisation which conventionals wells don't.

Pace of the project - he makes it sound like we (Community would have control). Sorry its shareholders who have control and he as CEO knows that his job is to produce shareholder value - the pace will be decided by financial underpinnings. His statement is very misleading. If you're a shareholder he needs firing for not looking after your interests. If as has been rumoured he's going to need to link up with a "strategic partner" to exploit the field then they will call the shots not the community.

I'm unsure what he means by 'building services' with the business community, and then statements like having 'full control over services'. Are we going to have a colonial laird again in Leitrim..? Very strange statement to make. Is this related to the costs at Corrib and bringing stuff inhouse.. so effectively splitting workforce from general population.

Q&A session ; Deeper play and friction reducer : Surely its total length of the well including the lateral, and we see Tamboran talking about 1Km laterals initially but hoping to go to 2K laterals.