Govt to sell national lottery licence to camelot

Morlar

Govt to sell national lottery licence to camelot

Ok, not exactly but very close to what the govt are thinking of doing:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0404/government-announces-changes-to-lotto-licence.html

Govt reveals terms for new 20-year licence to operate National Lottery

Updated: 15:08, Wednesday, 4 April 2012
The current National Lottery licence will expire in June 2013

The State hopes to raise hundreds of millions of euro by selling a licence to operate the lottery over a 20-year period.

The level of money for good causes will be maintained at 30% of lottery sales.

By selling the lottery licence over a 20-year period and seeking an upfront payment, the Government hopes to raise significant funds to put towards the National Children's Hospital.

There is considerable interest in the licence.

Camelot, which runs the UK lottery, said it welcomed today's announcement and was glad to hear the Government was moving forward.

Legislation detailing the proposals is due to be published by July and the Government aims to have it enacted by October.

Bids for the new licence, which is due to begin in July 2013, will be sought early next year.

An Post National Lottery Company is the holder of the current licence, which it won in a tendering process in late 2001.

The licence was due to end last year but the Government extended it until June 2013 in order to give them time to make changes to the licensing process.

Does anyone have faith the govt will do this in an efficient & effective manner which will be to the national benefit ?

Or, do you think they will fcuk it up comprehensively leaving the public drastically short-changed 'M50 toll bridge' style ?

My money is on 'they will fcuk it up comprehensively leaving the public drastically short-changed 'M50 toll bridge' style'.

donalg1

Sure thats their own business

G_R

Morlar wrote: »

Govt to sell national lottery licence to camelot

Ok, not exactly but very close to what the govt are thinking of doing:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0404/government-announces-changes-to-lotto-licence.html

Govt reveals terms for new 20-year licence to operate National Lottery

Updated: 15:08, Wednesday, 4 April 2012
The current National Lottery licence will expire in June 2013

The State hopes to raise hundreds of millions of euro by selling a licence to operate the lottery over a 20-year period.

The level of money for good causes will be maintained at 30% of lottery sales.

By selling the lottery licence over a 20-year period and seeking an upfront payment, the Government hopes to raise significant funds to put towards the National Children's Hospital.

There is considerable interest in the licence.

Camelot, which runs the UK lottery, said it welcomed today's announcement and was glad to hear the Government was moving forward.

Legislation detailing the proposals is due to be published by July and the Government aims to have it enacted by October.

Bids for the new licence, which is due to begin in July 2013, will be sought early next year.

An Post National Lottery Company is the holder of the current licence, which it won in a tendering process in late 2001.

The licence was due to end last year but the Government extended it until June 2013 in order to give them time to make changes to the licensing process.

Does anyone have faith the govt will do this in an efficient & effective manner which will be to the national benefit ?

Or, do you think they will fcuk it up comprehensively leaving the public drastically short-changed 'M50 toll bridge' style ?

My money is on 'they will fcuk it up comprehensively leaving the public drastically short-changed 'M50 toll bridge' style'.

Honestly don't see how it could be fecked up tbh. Seems to be a pretty simple concept...

Seachmall

I would like to purchase this license, who do I need to speak to?

Dostoevsky

Seachmall wrote: »

I would like to purchase this license, who do I need to speak to?

Denis O'Brien?

Fighting Irish

Morlar wrote: »

Govt to sell national lottery licence to camelot

Ok, not exactly but very close to what the govt are thinking of doing:

:rolleyes:

Morlar

Fighting Irish wrote: »

:rolleyes

Wow, that's great ! You're so cool !!

Fighting Irish

Grand_Rajnah wrote: »

Honestly don't see how it could be fecked up tbh. Seems to be a pretty simple concept...

They made me take out a huge mortgage, and now i'm fooked, so they'll defo fook this up!!!!!1

ScumLord

As long as the charitable donations stay the same I don't really see any problem.

Fighting Irish

Morlar wrote: »

Wow, that's great ! You're so cool !!

:pac:

StupidLikeAFox

Fighting Irish wrote: »

They made me take out a huge mortgage, and now i'm fooked, so they'll defo fook this up!!!!!1

Did they really?

Fighting Irish

ColHol wrote: »

Did they really?

Well it was either them, the bankers or the developers, can't really make my mind up ha

Clegg

The license is going up for general tender so it doesn't automatically mean that Camelot will get it.

An Post could put in a bid for it.

Robbo

I await Joe Higgins telling us that the machines that spin the lottery balls are an important piece of national infrastructure and that there's going to be a race to the bottom with jackpots.

Morlar

Clegg wrote: »

The license is going up for general tender so it doesn't automatically mean that Camelot will get it.

An Post could put in a bid for it.

If company A can make more money out of it they will win it over company B. Company A can do a million little things to increase their profits, such as decrease the odds of you winning, increase the number of lottery balls, increase the number of draws, decrease the amounts in prizes, decrease the amount or percentage of profits going to charitable causes, cap prizes and so on and on and on. Ths is one of those times when the highest bidder is not necessarily in the national interest. We will get a bundle of cash upfront but this will be a licence to print money which will flow out of this country until the year 2033.

This is why states in America have very active and competent Lottery Commissions, same as UK has an active Lottery commission. Also they generally do not give away the licence for 20 years at a time as it kills competition. Irish govt's have a long history of myopic idiocy in decision making involving a 'big pile cash' reward, look at our national resources, fisheries to the eu, M50 toll bridge, mining rights and so on.

AboutTwoFiddy

ScumLord wrote: »

As long as the charitable donations stay the same I don't really see any problem.

That's not the way it works. Initially, when the lottery was set up a certain proportion was supposed to cover costs and the rest handed out to worthy costs. What actually happens is all the monies raised goes to the government and then they pick and chose who gets money.

Have no confidence in the government handling this, there'll be brown envelopes passing hands and it will be sold to the biggest crook/donator.

benway

Robbo wrote: »

I await Joe Higgins telling us that the machines that spin the lottery balls are an important piece of national infrastructure and that there's going to be a race to the bottom with jackpots.

Wouldn't it be better to keep the profits in this country though? Couple of hundred million up front for a license worth a hell of a lot more in the long run seems myopic to me.

Someone, please think of Stokes Kennedy Crowley.

mike65

Stupid misleading threadline.

PogMoThoin

If it's not costing the state and is making money why sell it? You have to remember this is keeping lots of jobs going. Will this change under privatisation? Will the profits be leaving the country?

Morlar

PogMoThoin wrote: »

If it's not costing the state and is making money why sell it? You have to remember this is keeping lots of jobs going. Will this change under privatisation? Will the profits be leaving the country?

If camelot win the licence that'll be a decision for their shareholders.

PogMoThoin

Morlar wrote: »

If camelot win the licence that'll be a decision for their shareholders.

Exactly, so the Government needs to consider whether the sale is good for this country and not just a cash in.

Morlar

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Exactly, so the Government needs to consider whether the sale is good for this country and not just a cash in.

Well that's the question - do you have faith in this govt to do that ? Take a long look at their track record of negotiating on the national interest. Consiider also that this is a 20 yr licence, practically unheard of, it seems in this case purely to increase the short term cash flow. Even camelot in the uk were under absolute govt scrutiny for the entire duration of their licence and were made to part fund the olympics out of it.

The only good news in this is that the greens are no longer a factor : "Increase the ticket-prices up the profit margins so long as those balls are bio-degradable."

WoollyRedHat

Keeping in concept with the Lottery, they should award the licence to the next winner.

Kidchameleon

Do you reckon Camelot will decrease the odds of winning? Do you ever see their equivalent to winning streak with Dale Winton, the prizes are completely ****e, the Irish one dwarfs it.

I can see this being a bad thing for people who enjoy playing lotto.


(in before lotto tax on stupidity etc etc)

Adyx

mike65 wrote: »

Stupid misleading threadline.

You read it as cameltoe too?

Morlar

Adyx wrote: »

You read it as cameltoe too?

'Camel-Lottoe' ♫

Not that misleading after all.

Xenophile

We do not need An Post getting involved wasting tax payers money on their own efforts and that of consultants and advisers.

No way should An Post be involved in competing with private enterprise and this also includes competing with newsagents selling greeting cards.....................! The newsagent is not subsidized and cannot afford losses. Is there any way that An Post can be told to get more efficient at delivering mail at a cheaper price, or are we going to pay for this by way of unnecessary expense.

drunkmonkey

This little nugget.

"According to the Minister, there will be a competitive process and the fixed percentage of 30.5pc of annual turnover for good causes will be retained under the new licence"

You could turnover €1 million this year. You make a profit of €50,000 after the cost of business. That's how a normal business works.

With this you give the Government €400 million up front and €305000 a year for every €1 million of Turnover.

Am I the only one not getting how insane this is to an investor. €400 million buys a lot of Mc Donald's.

bnt

Morlar wrote: »

Does anyone have faith the govt will do this in an efficient & effective manner which will be to the national benefit ?

That's a trick question, right?

Nothing about a National Lottery is to the "national benefit". It is a "zero-sum game". It does not create any wealth, it merely redistributes it. Money leaves the pockets of the people buying tickets, and lands in the pockets of the winners, the government, and the operator. From there it goes, in varying proportions, to charities, shareholders, employees, and the usual government tax uses. No more money is created at any point in the process.

If you want a charity to benefit, then give money to that charity. If everyone did that, the charities would get more than they get from a lottery, since there would be no "middlemen" slicing a chunk off it.

micropig

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Denis O'Brien?

I will eat my hat if it turns out he's not going to be involved somehow in this

Joko

drunkmonkey wrote: »

This little nugget.

"According to the Minister, there will be a competitive process and the fixed percentage of 30.5pc of annual turnover for good causes will be retained under the new licence"

You could turnover €1 million this year. You make a profit of €50,000 after the cost of business. That's how a normal business works.

With this you give the Government €400 million up front and €305000 a year for every €1 million of Turnover.

Am I the only one not getting how insane this is to an investor. €400 million buys a lot of Mc Donald's.

It would be very easy for an investor to make loads from this, all they have to do is make the odds of winning a jackpot harder.

K-9

Morlar wrote: »

If company A can make more money out of it they will win it over company B. Company A can do a million little things to increase their profits, such as decrease the odds of you winning, increase the number of lottery balls, increase the number of draws, decrease the amounts in prizes, decrease the amount or percentage of profits going to charitable causes, cap prizes and so on and on and on. Ths is one of those times when the highest bidder is not necessarily in the national interest. We will get a bundle of cash upfront but this will be a licence to print money which will flow out of this country until the year 2033.

This is why states in America have very active and competent Lottery Commissions, same as UK has an active Lottery commission. Also they generally do not give away the licence for 20 years at a time as it kills competition. Irish govt's have a long history of myopic idiocy in decision making involving a 'big pile cash' reward, look at our national resources, fisheries to the eu, M50 toll bridge, mining rights and so on.

An Post did most of that ?

Wont someone think of the children's hospital?

oppenheimer1

Morlar wrote: »

Govt to sell national lottery licence to camelot

Ok, not exactly but very close to what the govt are thinking of doing:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0404/government-announces-changes-to-lotto-licence.html



Does anyone have faith the govt will do this in an efficient & effective manner which will be to the national benefit ?

Or, do you think they will fcuk it up comprehensively leaving the public drastically short-changed 'M50 toll bridge' style ?

My money is on 'they will fcuk it up comprehensively leaving the public drastically short-changed 'M50 toll bridge' style'.

Can you read? The licence is being put out to tender and Camelot have indicated that they are interested. Nowhere in that article says that they are selling the license to Camelot.

Nodin

K-9 wrote: »

......

Wont someone think of the children's hospital?

That would seem to be the idea, as how better to make it palatable.

And saying the money is going towards it, and the money actually going towards it are two different feckers alltogether.

AboutTwoFiddy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

This little nugget.

"According to the Minister, there will be a competitive process and the fixed percentage of 30.5pc of annual turnover for good causes will be retained under the new licence"

You could turnover €1 million this year. You make a profit of €50,000 after the cost of business. That's how a normal business works.

With this you give the Government €400 million up front and €305000 a year for every €1 million of Turnover.

Am I the only one not getting how insane this is to an investor. €400 million buys a lot of Mc Donald's.

Your figures are waaaaay off. Think about it like this, there are Lotto deaws Monday, Wednesday and Saturday alone...plus you have the special draws like Millionaires raffle etc., lets not forget on top of all of that there's the scratch card business. There's an absolute fortune to be made.

I hope whatever deal the government make, that they include a clause where they can, if they wish, buy back the licence after 10 years for 50% of the fee paid by the winning bidder.

Morlar

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Can you read? The licence is being put out to tender and Camelot have indicated that they are interested. Nowhere in that article says that they are selling the license to Camelot.

Can you read ?

"Ok, not exactly but very close to what the govt are thinking of doing"

They are selling the lottery licence for 20 yrs, Camelot are the primary interest so far expressed.

K-9

Nodin wrote: »

That would seem to be the idea, as how better to make it palatable.

And saying the money is going towards it, and the money actually going towards it are two different feckers alltogether.

Considering the pledges to build it anyway its "a wont someone think of the children" troll, except by the Government for a change.

In fairness its hardlly like Morlar's "selling our fish, coal and gold" point, its a bloody Lottery.

I assume An Post will lose a fortune though so they'll come under huge pressure to cost cut so we'll pay for it that way.

Morlar

AboutTwoFiddy wrote: »

Your figures are waaaaay off. Think about it like this, there are Lotto deaws Monday, Wednesday and Saturday alone...plus you have the special draws like Millionaires raffle etc., lets not forget on top of all of that there's the scratch card business. There's an absolute fortune to be made.

I hope whatever deal the government make, that they include a clause where they can, if they wish, buy back the licence after 10 years for 50% of the fee paid by the winning bidder.

Or do it sensibly, subject to constant ongoing review and monitoring, with the ability to pull the plug at any time should the need arise.

This is from the UK version Lottery Comission :

http://www.natlotcomm.gov.uk/about-the-national-lottery-commission

The National Lottery Commission is responsible for licensing and regulating the National Lottery.

We protect the integrity of the Lottery; protect players; and maximise funds to good causes. We also run the competition for the licence and select the operator of the Lottery.

The National Lottery Commission is a Non-Departmental Public Body, sponsored by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. We operate at arm’s length from government and our decisions are independent. Our work is funded by the National Lottery Distribution Fund (NLDF) – the good causes portion of National Lottery ticket sales.

The coalition government announced in late 2010 that it intends merge the Commission with the Gambling Commission. In order to achieve cost savings, ahead of the merger we will be relocating from central London to the Gambling Commission’s office in Birmingham. The move will take place in January 2011.

Our seven Commissioners are appointed by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport and meet each month to make decisions about new Lottery licences and other developments affecting the Lottery. They also appoint our full-time Chief Executive.

The Commission has the following powers:

We run the competition process to select the operator of the Lottery.
We make sure that the operator meets the conditions of the licence.
We can take legal action if necessary. If the operator breaks the conditions of the licence, we can impose a financial penalty.Ultimately we could withdraw a licence, but that would only happen under extreme circumstances.

oppenheimer1

Morlar wrote: »

Can you read ?

"Ok, not exactly but very close to what the govt are thinking of doing"

They are selling the lottery licence for 20 yrs, Camelot are the primary interest so far expressed.

Yes, but that doesn't mean they are selling it to Camelot. Do you really think An Post are not going to put in a bid? Given that they have successfully run a lottery here for years, I'd be surprised if they didn't get it.

Camelot might win it, yes, but you cannot say its a done deal at this stage. Far from it in fact.

Morlar

K-9 wrote: »

In fairness its hardlly like Morlar's "selling our fish, coal and gold" point, its a bloody Lottery.

I did not say the lottery licence was the equivalent of selling our 'Fish, coal and gold'

It is a licence to print money until 2033 (unlike our gold). There is also the completely unknown element of online lottery sales & how that may take off.

The examples provided are entirely valid, in that the Irish govt track record in negotiating deals such as this does not inspire confidence.

Logical Fallacy

Grand_Rajnah wrote: »

Honestly don't see how it could be fecked up tbh. Seems to be a pretty simple concept...

lol

K-9

Morlar wrote: »

I did not say the lottery licence was the equivalent of selling our 'Fish, coal and gold'

Didn't stop you mention fish and mining though.

It is a licence to print money until 2033 (unlike our gold). There is also the completely unknown element of online lottery sales & how that may take off.

The examples provided are entirely valid, in that the Irish govt track record in negotiating deals such as this does not inspire confidence.

Well I'm not big on the idea of a Government running a Lottery as its just another form of tax, granted on a Ministerial whim.

Morlar

K-9 wrote: »

Didn't stop you mention fish and mining though.

What I provided were examples of Irish govt's track record in negotiating long term rights to money making enterprises in Ireland.

Don't worry, by 2033 the FG labour 'talent' will be long gone, the permanent govt (civil service) will still be there and Irish people will still get to watch hundreds of millions flow out of the country on a regular basis rather than supporting Irish jobs in Ireland. If camelot win the bid it the whole show could be run by consultants working in camelot hq, london, or maybe outsourced to bangalore if that's cheaper for them. All for short term pig-eyed greed & political gain. 'Here is a hospital now vote for us'.

drunkmonkey

AboutTwoFiddy wrote: »

Your figures are waaaaay off. Think about it like this, there are Lotto deaws Monday, Wednesday and Saturday alone...plus you have the special draws like Millionaires raffle etc., lets not forget on top of all of that there's the scratch card business. There's an absolute fortune to be made.

Found these figures on the internet for 2011 " Turnover: €578.3 million, Profit: €191.1

Now based on those figures, if you have to give away 30.5% of your turnover that's €176.4 million.

Which will leave you a profit of nearly €18 million. Now remember they want €400 million up front.

It'll be nearly 23 years before your turn a profit.

Morlar

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Found these figures on the internet for 2011 " Turnover: €578.3 million, Profit: €191.1

Now based on those figures, if you have to give away 30.5% of your turnover that's €176.4 million.

Which will leave you a profit of nearly €18 million. Now remember they want €400 million up front.

It'll be nearly 23 years before your turn a profit.

They are discussing changes to online lottery sales which (depending on how that evolves) could possibly open up the Irish diaspora market to all of this. Any current figures may need to be viewed in the context of how what will unfold. At this point there is not much information on that.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0404/government-announces-changes-to-lotto-licence.html#video

Fighting Irish

Morlar wrote: »

What I provided were examples of Irish govt's track record in negotiating long term rights to money making enterprises in Ireland.

Don't worry, by 2033 the FG labour 'talent' will be long gone, the permanent govt (civil service) will still be there and Irish people will still get to watch hundreds of millions flow out of the country on a regular basis rather than supporting Irish jobs in Ireland. If camelot win the bid it the whole show could be run by consultants working in camelot hq, london, or maybe outsourced to bangalore if that's cheaper for them. All for short term pig-eyed greed & political gain. 'Here is a hospital now vote for us'.

That's the thing with politics, most people are dumb as fook, they rarely see things long term, so politicians will do whatever it takes to keep their jobs

K-9

Morlar wrote: »

What I provided were examples of Irish govt's track record in negotiating long term rights to money making enterprises in Ireland.

Don't worry, by 2033 the FG labour 'talent' will be long gone, the permanent govt (civil service) will still be there and Irish people will still get to watch hundreds of millions flow out of the country on a regular basis rather than supporting Irish jobs in Ireland. If camelot win the bid it the whole show could be run by consultants working in camelot hq, london, or maybe outsourced to bangalore if that's cheaper for them. All for short term pig-eyed greed & political gain. 'Here is a hospital now vote for us'.

Well An Post should get it for nothing then if its an Irish jobs for Irish people thing, thought you Shinners were against all that, love immigration and all that?

I'm more worried about more and more post offices being closed as An Post loses that revenue, the elderly and poor suffering, money doesn't come into it if people are dumb enough to play it on a regular basis.

Morlar wrote: »

They are discussing changes to online lottery sales which (depending on how that evolves) could possibly open up the Irish diaspora market to all of this. Any current figures may need to be viewed in the context of how what will unfold. At this point there is not much information on that.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0404/government-announces-changes-to-lotto-licence.html#video

Doubt that will go down well abroad. That'll just lead to globalism of lotteries and the big American ones will take over.

Morlar

K-9 wrote: »

Well An Post should get it for nothing then if its an Irish jobs for Irish people thing, thought you Shinners were against all that, love immigration and all that?

Those are not the options here. No one has said it should be given to An Post for free except you. Also, in addition to responding to what people actually say, you could try responding to people without resorting to labels & dismissive nonsense once in a while. It would probably do you good.

K-9 wrote: »

I'm more worried about more and more post offices being closed as An Post loses that revenue, the elderly and poor suffering, money doesn't come into it if people are dumb enough to play it on a regular basis.

Not really sure what this part means to be honest. People do play it & will continue to play, often out of desperation & using money they don't really have to spare. For good or ill it is a national asset in terms of it being a licence to print money.

K-9 wrote: »

Doubt that will go down well abroad. That'll just lead to globalism of lotteries and the big American ones will take over.

How internet lottery sales in the Irish context pan out (if at all) is yet to be determined. There is potentially a huge global market (Irish diaspora) that other small countries would not be in the same position to tap into. To give one example the spanish Gordo one was marketed quite well abroad & that was based on big prizes alone & not with the element of goodwill towards Ireland from Irish communities abroad.

K-9

Morlar wrote: »

Those are not the options here. No one has said it should be given to An Post for free except you. Also, in addition to responding to what people actually say, you could try responding to people without resorting to labels & dismissive nonsense once in a while. It would probably do you good.

Its hard to argue with so many slogans and sound bytes. If it should be paid for, should it be open to other companies? Is your problem Camelot being a foreign company? Irish jobs for Irish people? What exactly is it?

Not really sure what this part means to be honest. People do play it & will continue to play, often out of desperation & using money they don't really have to spare. For good or ill it is a national asset in terms of it being a licence to print money.

They shouldn't use it when they have nothing, it's illogical. At least there's some logic to horses, but how and ever it is here, as you say.

How internet lottery sales in the Irish context pan out (if at all) is yet to be determined. There is potentially a huge global market (Irish diaspora) that other small countries would not be in the same position to tap into. To give one example the spanish Gordo one was marketed quite well abroad & that was based on big prizes alone & not with the element of goodwill towards Ireland from Irish communities abroad.

So an average €3/4 Million jackpot is going to have them rolling in? Jaysus. Maybe another Hospital Stakes!

That's the problem when you open things up like this, other countries will compete and lotteries aren't logical or nationalistic, hence the Euro Millions, British lottery on the border. Sounds a bit like Enda and the diaspora will save us nonsense.