Do Hills make you slower?

Gringo78

Due to work/family the only running I'm getting to do at the moment is lunchtime runs. I'm restricted to basically running up a hill thats 4.4k to the top with 270m of climb - so average grade of 6% but some parts would be alot steeper than that.

Will the fact that all my training will now be steep uphill or steep downhill affect my 'flat' or level ground speed? I think that running uphill might make my stride a bit shorter but would this be counteracted by the fast downhill running that goes in tandem with the uphill running? My tempo runs now are 88-90%HRR effort uphill rather than similar effort on the flat and this could result in me being anything up to 3min/ml slower than my normal 10 mile race pace. So does this all mean that I will just gain speed on the hills but at the expense of my speed on the level?

Also, what the best way to do an easy/recovery run up such a hill?

Micilin Muc

Gringo78 wrote: »

So does this all mean that I will just gain speed on the hills but at the expense of my speed on the level?

I don't think the gain in speed on hills will be at the expense of your speed on the flat. In my experience, running on hills will only prepare you for hills and will improve your stamina.

I think the only way to improve your speed on the flat while training on hills is by doing a VO2 max session or hill repeats.

Gringo78 wrote: »

Also, what the best way to do an easy/recovery run up such a hill?

Jut run slower I think and keep your heart-rate down.

ThisRegard

Micilin Muc wrote: »

I don't think the gain in speed on hills will be at the expense of your speed on the flat.

About a year ago I was told the opposite by a PT guy in the army, and I had no reason to disbelieve him at the moment as he's a fairly decent ultra guy. Anyway, he reckons too much training on hills would slow you down on the flat as your stride shortens obviously when on the hill but it could carry over then to the flat.

theboyblunder

If I remember correctly KC took a long time off speedwork at one point when training for the two oceans ultra. However he kept up running in hills. I think when he came back he had lost very little speed - ran 61 or something for 10 miles before doing speedwork again. He would know better than me but I remember being struck by how little speed he had lost and how quickly he got it back after running hills.

Either that or he does EPO

Enduro

ThisRegard wrote: »

About a year ago I was told the opposite by a PT guy in the army, and I had no reason to disbelieve him at the moment as he's a fairly decent ultra guy. Anyway, he reckons too much training on hills would slow you down on the flat as your stride shortens obviously when on the hill but it could carry over then to the flat.

Does the army genius not run down hills, or does he shorten his stride for that as well?

There's plenty of reasons to disbelieve him, simple logic being the first one!

Peterx

ahh but simple maths says the army genius might be thinking he spends more time climbing with the shortened stride then he does descending with the lengthened stride.

ThisRegard

Well if you're a regular Joe Soap plodder plodding away up hills all the time with little strides you'd probably just fall into the same routine and stride lengths when plodding away on a regular surface as it basically becomes your regular pace, you become a shuffler. There's logic to that too, flawed though it may be.

Obviously everyone will run faster and take longer strides downhill.

T runner

ThisRegard wrote: »

About a year ago I was told the opposite by a PT guy in the army, and I had no reason to disbelieve him at the moment as he's a fairly decent ultra guy. Anyway, he reckons too much training on hills would slow you down on the flat as your stride shortens obviously when on the hill but it could carry over then to the flat.

Enduro wrote: »

Does the army genius not run down hills, or does he shorten his stride for that as well?

There's plenty of reasons to disbelieve him, simple logic being the first one!

I agree with Enduro. You have to lift your leg higher to take a stride up a hill. That means that your legs get conditioned to powerful strides with knee lift which translates to long powerful strides on a flat surface-not shorter ones.

Stride lenght is further increased run down a hill obvioulsy as can be stride frequency.

If you do all your running on hills and all/some off-road there may be a reduction in stride rate. You can counter this by doing strides and concentrating on a fast cadence for uphills and downhills. If its all road hills i dont see any issues at all really.

Hills should make you a lot faster for flat running provided you maintain leg turnover where necessary.

ThisRegard

T runner wrote: »

If you do all your running on hills and all/some off-road there may be a reduction in stride rate. You can counter this by doing strides and concentrating on a fast cadence for uphills and downhills. If its all road hills i dont see any issues at all really.

Hills should make you a lot faster for flat running provided you maintain leg turnover where necessary.

He was speaking about hills as in steep mountainy hills, not the type that are seen by some to make the the Great Ireland Run in the Phoenix Park a hilly course.

I agree with your point overall though, but a person would have to make a conscious decision, as you say concentrate on, a faster cadence. But as I said if your slower stride rate and length becomes routine and you just fall into that routine without making the most out of the benefits gained from hill running I can see why you could become slower.

Anyway, it's not my theory, I'm just saying I can see where he's coming from.

T runner

ThisRegard wrote: »

He was speaking about hills as in steep mountainy hills, not the type that are seen by some to make the the Great Ireland Run in the Phoenix Park a hilly course.

Any uphill your stride angle (and therefore potential lenght) increases.

I think the OP was referring to road hills though?

I agree with your point overall though, but a person would have to make a conscious decision, as you say concentrate on, a faster cadence.

Only in the circumstances of mountain terrain would that apply. Not on roads.
Kenny Stuart (famous English Mountain Runner) limited his running to 33% off road for this reason.

But as I said if your slower stride rate and length becomes routine and you just fall into that routine without making the most out of the benefits gained from hill running I can see why you could become slower.

Its not slower stride lenght. You get longer stride lenght which is the exact opposite of what the army guy said. He didnt mention stride frequency at a
ll.

Anyway, it's not my theory, I'm just saying I can see where he's coming from.

If he says uphill running makes your stride shorter then im sorry but i cant see where hes coming from.

Krusty_Clown

theboyblunder wrote: »

If I remember correctly KC took a long time off speedwork at one point when training for the two oceans ultra. However he kept up running in hills. I think when he came back he had lost very little speed - ran 61 or something for 10 miles before doing speedwork again. He would know better than me but I remember being struck by how little speed he had lost and how quickly he got it back after running hills.

Either that or he does EPO

A bit of A and a bit of B.

I'm not a good case study as while I did enjoy a lot of hill running during the period I also ran a lot of non-hilly terrain (which is different to Gringo's dilemma). I think maintaining my speed was down to the consistent 50-60 mpw, immediately following a 2:48 marathon, rather than specifically the hill running (which offered a complimentary set of training stimuli).

Gringo78

T runner wrote: »

I agree with Enduro. You have to lift your leg higher to take a stride up a hill. That means that your legs get conditioned to powerful strides with knee lift which translates to long powerful strides on a flat surface-not shorter ones.

Stride lenght is further increased run down a hill obvioulsy as can be stride frequency.

If you do all your running on hills and all/some off-road there may be a reduction in stride rate. You can counter this by doing strides and concentrating on a fast cadence for uphills and downhills. If its all road hills i dont see any issues at all really.

Hills should make you a lot faster for flat running provided you maintain leg turnover where necessary.

All the running is on a road hill. I hadn't really considered the knee lift and after about 3 weeks of running up and down that hill I have noticed that I now feel more strength in the legs.

As for the downhill running, initially found it quite tough as I know the correct way to run down a hill is to lean forward but my legs just couldn't take the speed but in the last few days I've found I can now run downhill no issue. Takes me around 16-18minutes to run down the hill so my legs were taking quite a hammering that they were unused to but I'm gradually able to cope with a faster, less impact, pace.

earnyourturns

I am happy to be the guinea pig for this thread I'm currently training for my fourth (road) marathon at the moment, have run the others in 4:19, 4:22 and 4:24 (let's hear it for consistency, eh and yes, I am very much a midpack runner). So yes, the plan is to do the pancake flat Christchurch Marathon on June 3.

Just for variety's sake, though, I've been doing the majority of my runs off-road, through some pretty mountainous terrain, for example, this was my long run last week (http://leithharriers.com/threepeaks/ - man. It HURT).

Not entirely sure why I'm doing all these mountain runs to train for a flat, road marathon, but the one thing I know is that I'm enjoying running right now more than I have since training for the DCM back in 09. I was asking one of my friends who's doing a PhD in physiology if I should be doing more onroad flat stuff instead and his response was that if you're enjoying it, that's the best training you can be doing

Of course, like I said before, I'm a total slow-coach.

T runner

earnyourturns wrote: »

I am happy to be the guinea pig for this thread I'm currently training for my fourth (road) marathon at the moment, have run the others in 4:19, 4:22 and 4:24 (let's hear it for consistency, eh and yes, I am very much a midpack runner). So yes, the plan is to do the pancake flat Christchurch Marathon on June 3.

Just for variety's sake, though, I've been doing the majority of my runs off-road, through some pretty mountainous terrain, for example, this was my long run last week (http://leithharriers.com/threepeaks/ - man. It HURT).

Not entirely sure why I'm doing all these mountain runs to train for a flat, road marathon, but the one thing I know is that I'm enjoying running right now more than I have since training for the DCM back in 09. I was asking one of my friends who's doing a PhD in physiology if I should be doing more onroad
flat stuff instead and his response was that if you're enjoying it, that's the best training you can be doing

Of course, like I said before, I'm a total slow-coach.

Training gives a stimulus to fitness but there are also stimuli to get out training. Enjoyment being a key for non-pros. You should do a few hill races while you're at it. Running long tempo runs on the flat and doing strides will help keep you're cadence up for a road marathon.

wrstan

I have no idea whether hills make you faster or slower, however I am sure that hill running is a very important part of a balanced training programme. The article below from runners world is good on different ways to incorporate hills into your training:

http://runningtimes.com//Article.aspx?ArticleID=24629

My main comment to the OP is to make sure that you have balance in your training. That doesn't mean you have to run hills one day and do a speed session or tempo run the next day. Maybe break your year into 12 or 16 week blocks, and use one of those blocks where you are mainly doing hill work etc. I tend to do a lot of long hill runs during the winter to build up my strength but less in the spring and summer where I try and focus more on speed (if only it worked out so neatly in reality).

b