Deer Numbers

German pointer

Hi lads,

As ye know I am new to the boards and as I was going through some old posts I came across one about poachers having 31 deer on a trailer and the NPWS stinging them. It went on to talk about some leases and permissions having up to 200 deer taken from them per year. This prompts the question how many deer is there in the country and what numbers can be taken every year so as to keep it sustainable. Any body know this one. I heard from one source that the 2009-2010 season had 35,000 returns. Poachers not included.

browning 12 bore

i was wondering that myself but aparently there i did read some where some site similar to that one that tells you the returns that there is approx in the regeion of over 219000 in the wicklow area so im not sure bout any where else now maybe thats all bs im just reading what i seen

ssl

Irish Examiner 04/04/12

"Deer being killed faster than they can breed amid ‘unprecedented’ poaching
By Claire O’Sullivan
Wednesday, April 04, 2012
Unprecedented poaching is threatening the deer population in many parts of the country, according to hunters.
Measures have been put in place by the main game-handling establishments and the Wild Deer Association of Ireland to counter the threat to the animals.

"In particular, it is believed red deer numbers have been decimated nationally by illegal poaching and over hunting," said WDAI secretary Damien Hannigan. "It is hoped these initiatives will allow deer numbers to recover to sustainable levels."

The WDAI believes hunters "may well be culling deer faster than they can reproduce, not allowing them sufficient time to recover from unprecedented levels of illegal poaching".

As part of the agreement between the game handlers and the WDAI, culled deer will no longer be bought out of season and the existing premium payment for red deer is to be removed.

Paul Fletcher of Premier Game Ltd said "all the main game handling establishments who are concerned for our national deer herds have agreed not to purchase deer culled out of season".

Information released to the WDAI by Heritage Minister Jimmy Deenihan showed the number of permits issued to cull deer outside of hunting season fell 16% in 2011. Under the Wildlife Act, such permits are granted to landowners if they can prove the deer are damaging farm land or forestry. The WDAI believe the reduction in requests is a result of a significant drop in deer numbers nationally.

Last year, Mr Deenihan was asked in the Dáil about permits issued that included a condition allowing deer to be culled at night using rifles and powerful lamps used to dazzle the animals.

The Wildlife Act states that such a practice should be lawful only for "educational or scientific purposes" and not for culling, as it is considered an unethical way of culling and creates a serious safety risk to the public.

Last year, nine such permits were granted compared to 108 the year before.

The WDAI has criticised Mr Deenihan for issuing permits allowing female deer to be culled from May to August, when they have fawns. Nearly two thirds (63%) of all permits issued were for female deer.

"If the female is shot during these months, the newborn deer will be orphaned and suffer a horrendous death from starvation, which can take a number of weeks," the association said."

German pointer

ssl wrote: »

Irish Examiner 04/04/12

"Deer being killed faster than they can breed amid ‘unprecedented’ poaching
By Claire O’Sullivan
Wednesday, April 04, 2012
Unprecedented poaching is threatening the deer population in many parts of the country, according to hunters.
Measures have been put in place by the main game-handling establishments and the Wild Deer Association of Ireland to counter the threat to the animals.

"In particular, it is believed red deer numbers have been decimated nationally by illegal poaching and over hunting," said WDAI secretary Damien Hannigan. "It is hoped these initiatives will allow deer numbers to recover to sustainable levels."

The WDAI believes hunters "may well be culling deer faster than they can reproduce, not allowing them sufficient time to recover from unprecedented levels of illegal poaching".

As part of the agreement between the game handlers and the WDAI, culled deer will no longer be bought out of season and the existing premium payment for red deer is to be removed.

Paul Fletcher of Premier Game Ltd said "all the main game handling establishments who are concerned for our national deer herds have agreed not to purchase deer culled out of season".

Information released to the WDAI by Heritage Minister Jimmy Deenihan showed the number of permits issued to cull deer outside of hunting season fell 16% in 2011. Under the Wildlife Act, such permits are granted to landowners if they can prove the deer are damaging farm land or forestry. The WDAI believe the reduction in requests is a result of a significant drop in deer numbers nationally.

Last year, Mr Deenihan was asked in the Dáil about permits issued that included a condition allowing deer to be culled at night using rifles and powerful lamps used to dazzle the animals.

The Wildlife Act states that such a practice should be lawful only for "educational or scientific purposes" and not for culling, as it is considered an unethical way of culling and creates a serious safety risk to the public.

Last year, nine such permits were granted compared to 108 the year before.

The WDAI has criticised Mr Deenihan for issuing permits allowing female deer to be culled from May to August, when they have fawns. Nearly two thirds (63%) of all permits issued were for female deer.

"If the female is shot during these months, the newborn deer will be orphaned and suffer a horrendous death from starvation, which can take a number of weeks," the association said."

Thanks for that, I have seen a few stories like this but what I am wondering is what is the actual number of deer nation wide and how many can be killed without wiping them out. If we wipe them out in the next few years, what will our kids hunt.

ssl

German pointer wrote: »

Thanks for that, I have seen a few stories like this but what I am wondering is what is the actual number of deer nation wide and how many can be killed without wiping them out. If we wipe them out in the next few years, what will our kids hunt.

We can't rely too much on that article, no scientifically collected data in it. I remember talking to a ranger who said well never get on top of deer. I'd believe him. If there are 220,000 deer in Wicklow and none were shot then there'd be 330,000 next year and so on.
Alot of media coverage of poaching at the present. When lads aren't getting deer there blaming poachers. Deer could have moved from there area for many different reasons as animals do. There complaining to there deer representives who are voicing and acting on the concerns of there members. But do they know the numbers of deer in each are? Numbers being poached?

German pointer

ssl wrote: »

We can't rely too much on that article, no scientifically collected data in it. I remember talking to a ranger who said well never get on top of deer. I'd believe him. If there are 220,000 deer in Wicklow and none were shot then there'd be 330,000 next year and so on.
Alot of media coverage of poaching at the present. When lads aren't getting deer there blaming poachers. Deer could have moved from there area for many different reasons as animals do. There complaining to there deer representives who are voicing and acting on the concerns of there members. But do they know the numbers of deer in each are? Numbers being poached?

Yourself and browning 12bore are both quoting 220000 in Wicklow ( could ye not ship a few thousand down to us););).

Any idea if this number is correct and if so where could I get numbers for the rest of the country?

As for getting on top of them we thougth the same with rabbits 30 year ago. I know poison etc had a lot to do with them getting scarce but they are still scarce to day.

marcp

how many can be culled without wiping them out?
i read that 40% of young can be culled each year and allowing for natural mortality etc, this will keep a steady population. apparently!

Birdnuts

German pointer wrote: »

As for getting on top of them we thougth the same with rabbits 30 year ago. I know poison etc had a lot to do with them getting scarce but they are still scarce to day.

The introduction of the mixie disease is what wiped out many warrens in the 70' and 80's. Its still wipes out populations locally today.

TriggerPL

there is an easy way to stop the pouchers , drop the price of deers in factory . lads that hunt deer normally are the lads that have there own friend for the meat , or freeze it for them selves . the lad that lands to the factory every day with 10 deers has to be ask the question where he getting them . like if you drop ten deer at the factory at 10 in the morning , what is the chances of you findind ten more during the day to bring to the factory the next day. but with a big lamp at night you will find them..

German pointer

Birdnuts wrote: »

The introduction of the mixie disease is what wiped out many warrens in the 70' and 80's. Its still wipes out populations locally today.

There is another disease that is wipin them out aswell:(.

German pointer

TriggerPL wrote: »

there is an easy way to stop the pouchers , drop the price of deers in factory . lads that hunt deer normally are the lads that have there own friend for the meat , or freeze it for them selves . the lad that lands to the factory every day with 10 deers has to be ask the question where he getting them . like if you drop ten deer at the factory at 10 in the morning , what is the chances of you findind ten more during the day to bring to the factory the next day. but with a big lamp at night you will find them..

I know that,

They could also ban the trade in deer meat for a year or two and then they would only have to watch the game meat sellers which are not that common instead of trying to catch the pouchers and watch everyone with a .223 or bigger or some with a solid shot slug for the shotgun. That might bring the numbers back up if they can't be sold they wont shoot them

Back to, how many deer are they in the country?

Grizzly 45

Might be of some help RE the numbers??However it looks like the data is ancient and it seems to pose a direct opposite to what is the situation now.Less deer Vs this time last year loads of deer???

FISMA

German pointer wrote: »

This prompts the question how many deer is there in the country and what numbers can be taken every year so as to keep it sustainable. Any body know this one.

GermanPointer,
I took a course in the States where I had the opportunity to meet with some of the top experts in the country in the meat and agricultural sciences.

According to one of the sources, 40% of the herd may be culled yearly in order to keep the population constant.

The problem with statistics is the guesswork that goes into determining the actual population.

I watched lakes in Eire decimated during the 90's that have still not come back, despite our efforts.

I do fear that deer hunting in Ireland could suffer a similar fate.

German pointer

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Might be of some help RE the numbers??However it looks like the data is ancient and it seems to pose a direct opposite to what is the situation now.Less deer Vs this time last year loads of deer???

Thanks

Bit of reading there will try to get to it later.

Vegeta

TriggerPL wrote: »

there is an easy way to stop the pouchers , drop the price of deers in factory

I don't believe deer price is the sole cause of poaching.

Locally, deer were worth more per kg in the 90's and I don't believe there was the same level of poaching going on then. That tells me that it is not price alone driving it.

I think it is a mix of a few things:

• More calibers capable of shooting deer, licensing anything beyond a .22 could be difficult 15 years ago.
• Lads with lots of free time due to high levels of unemployment
• Up until recently, increasing deer populations

So when people say that lowering the price will solve poaching I think they are incorrect. Firstly because it is not the price alone which drives it and secondly when prices drop there is a risk that people will "work" harder, shoot even more deer to make the same money.

browning 12 bore

well lads in myy own expereince and several famers i have say to me when i shoot 2 or 3 for them on there land i do get a phone call to come back that there going mad on there land and want lads to cull them down a bit in the area so im not sure bout closing down the factories will do the job then your left with deer carcases all over the country side in my eyes maybe im wrong im just stating what is said to me
also the famers say to me if you dont bring them down for me ill get lads in that will also i want you off my land so its kinda fighting a very hard battle in my eyes
correct me if im wrong

TriggerPL

browning 12 bore wrote: »

well lads in myy own expereince and several famers i have say to me when i shoot 2 or 3 for them on there land i do get a phone call to come back that there going mad on there land and want lads to cull them down a bit in the area so im not sure bout closing down the factories will do the job then your left with deer carcases all over the country side in my eyes maybe im wrong im just stating what is said to me
also the famers say to me if you dont bring them down for me ill get lads in that will also i want you off my land so its kinda fighting a very hard battle in my eyes
correct me if im wrong

your right i wouldn agree with closing the factory either they have to work too, but 60 - 80 euro for a deer , when your out of a job is tempting and i understand why people pouch, if you had no income and a family to look after !! but it dont make it right or legal .

if factorys only give half that for a deers shot by hunter , then less people would be inclined to go out , bacause deers shooting is hard work , dragging and pulling .

that still leaves it open for people to cul farms like ur self

TriggerPL

Vegeta wrote: »

I don't believe deer price is the sole cause of poaching.

Locally, deer were worth more per kg in the 90's and I don't believe there was the same level of poaching going on then. That tells me that it is not price alone driving it.

I think it is a mix of a few things:

• More calibers capable of shooting deer, licensing anything beyond a .22 could be difficult 15 years ago.
• Lads with lots of free time due to high levels of unemployment
• Up until recently, increasing deer populations

So when people say that lowering the price will solve poaching I think they are incorrect. Firstly because it is not the price alone which drives it and secondly when prices drop there is a risk that people will "work" harder, shoot even more deer to make the same money.

just read what you just posted . people didnt shoot them in the 90's why because they were working all the time making big money and hadn the need ! Take copper and scrap metal , the price has gone true the roof and now lad are going round collecting and paying for old cars and stuff , where in the boom you couldn give away an old car .

people would realise that there is not enough in it now and quit pouching if the prices of deer dropped . 10 deer a week will get you 600 to 800 , this is easy obtained if your lamping them 5 nights a week.

but having to get 20 deer for the same money requires you to work harder for the same money. Yes your right. but what happens when you ask an irish person to work harder for the same money ? He Will quit his job and find something else to do.

not to mention your cost double as well more bullets and diesel and split it with a lad cause no lad lamps alone when pouching.,

German pointer

Still confused about the numbers nationwide

4200fps

German pointer wrote: »

Still confused about the numbers nationwide

Nobody will ever know exactly and there's no accurate way of calculating either. Its nearly a rough guess and the amount of deer roaming un noticed

German pointer

4200fps wrote: »

Nobody will ever know exactly and there's no accurate way of calculating either. Its nearly a rough guess and the amount of deer roaming un noticed

Thanks, I know that, I just thought that someone somewhere in one of the Government Depts. would have done a rough guesstamate at some stage.

Theshooter2012

The only thing i can say is there is a lot of areas in ireland that are not shot for deer at all so deer breed without any disturbance at all and young deer then move out of these areas into places where they are shot. In cavan there are deer along the border of the north and tese areas are not shot and there is lots of woodland so they are rarely seen, so much so there are not even sign on the road so all in all those counts are not accurate.