Solicitors fees for PIAB

mark1974

HI all,
I recently had a successful claim against my local council for a fall.

My solicitor initially sent the case to the PIAB which the council flatly refused to accept so after 18 months we where before the courts and the judge awarded me compensation and costs which on the day my solicitor said included: solicitors fees, barristers fees and medical fees for both sides.
Then he goes on to say that out of my settlement I will have to pay him €1500 for the PIAB claim.

Is this right or would that have been included in his costs awarded to him by court?
And if its right is this amount reasonable as any reports that may (I don't know of any) have been sent to PIAB where also used in the court case and am I paying for these as well as the council. Can I ask him for it to be itemised.

ResearchWill

mark1974 wrote: »

HI all,
I recently had a successful claim against my local council for a fall.

My solicitor initially sent the case to the PIAB which the council flatly refused to accept so after 18 months we where before the courts and the judge awarded me compensation and costs which on the day my solicitor said included: solicitors fees, barristers fees and medical fees for both sides.
Then he goes on to say that out of my settlement I will have to pay him €1500 for the PIAB claim.

Is this right or would that have been included in his costs awarded to him by court?
And if its right is this amount reasonable as any reports that may (I don't know of any) have been sent to PIAB where also used in the court case and am I paying for these as well as the council. Can I ask him for it to be itemised.

PIAB costs can not be collected as an item of costs and must be paid by the plaintiff.

51B.— (1) This section applies irrespective of whether an assessment of the relevant claim referred to in this section has been made or whether any assessment so made has been accepted, or is deemed to have been accepted, under this Part by any person.

(2) If a claimant brings proceedings in accordance with this Act in respect of his or her relevant claim then, in any taxation of costs in those proceedings, no amount shall be allowed in respect of any fees or expenses incurred by the claimant in connection with the application he or she made under section 11 in respect of the relevant claim or in complying with any provision of this Act in respect thereto, other than fees or expenses referred to in section 35, 44 or 45.”.

The 2007 amendment Act.

mark1974

Thanks for that info. I have no problem paying as long as I know its fair.
Am I entitled to a breakdown of his 1500 charge or can he say that's what he charges and that's that?

Predalien

Doesn't that make it possible for the solicitor to be paid twice? The initial PIAB application I'd assume would have included costs for the initial consultation, correspondence with doctors etc. Much of which would be the same as the work required for bringing the case to court... seems a little unusual.

mark1974

@ predalien. Thats what I thought. I know that the same doctors report would have been used and it was the same engineers report.
Therefore all I should be paying is for his time and the 50 euro it costs to lodge the claim.
I guess I'll have to ask him for an itemized bill and dispute anything that I feel he may be mistakenly getting paid twice for. That should be fun

thebiglad

In cases of vulnerable people or minors requiring legal guidance the Solicitor is allowed to charge €1,500 to the responsible party (generally insurer) for the initial representatations to PIAB - as you are not a vulnerable person (presumably) he is applying the same charge to you.

At the commencement of the appointment of the Solicitor he was supposed to set out the fees etc for representing you, if you did not receive that then I would question their right to charge you now.

Probably someone on Boards can tell you your rights on that and failing that contact the Law Society.

PIAB exists to avoid the needs and costs of a Solicitor so until you have a legal release from PIAB should have stayed away from the Solicitor.

thebiglad

Predalien wrote: »

Doesn't that make it possible for the solicitor to be paid twice? The initial PIAB application I'd assume would have included costs for the initial consultation, correspondence with doctors etc. Much of which would be the same as the work required for bringing the case to court... seems a little unusual.

Have you seen the PIAB application form - a Passport application is more complicated!!

Very very little legal skill required to fill this in...

ResearchWill

Predalien wrote: »

Doesn't that make it possible for the solicitor to be paid twice? The initial PIAB application I'd assume would have included costs for the initial consultation, correspondence with doctors etc. Much of which would be the same as the work required for bringing the case to court... seems a little unusual.

The solicitor is not being paid twice, in relation to the costs of the court application, he can only recover for the work he did on that case, all previous work getting PIAB application together can not be billed to the Defendant, unless as pointed out the Plaintiff is in some way a vunerable person.

While it may sound a lot, I have know of PIAB applications that only required a little work and others that produced a ton of paperwork. The stories I have heard of trying to get medical reports on time.

If you are not happy with any part of the solicitors bill you can and should ask for a breakdown, if you still feel agrieved you can request that the Bill be taxed, also no harm asking for a discount a bird in the hand and all that.

ResearchWill

thebiglad wrote: »

Have you seen the PIAB application form - a Passport application is more complicated!!

Very very little legal skill required to fill this in...

While I would agree, its not really how simple it is it is the information given, such information can come back and haunt the Plaintiff in any Court hearing, I can assure you defence lawyers go through the PIAB application with a fine toothcomb to find any issues, with how same was completed.

Predalien

ResearchWill wrote: »

The solicitor is not being paid twice, in relation to the costs of the court application, he can only recover for the work he did on that case, all previous work getting PIAB application together can not be billed to the Defendant, unless as pointed out the Plaintiff is in some way a vunerable person.

While it may sound a lot, I have know of PIAB applications that only required a little work and others that produced a ton of paperwork. The stories I have heard of trying to get medical reports on time.

If you are not happy with any part of the solicitors bill you can and should ask for a breakdown, if you still feel agrieved you can request that the Bill be taxed, also no harm asking for a discount a bird in the hand and all that.

So the solicitor can't bill the defendant for anything that was done for the original PIAB application even where this stuff was also necessary for the court case? Doesn't that save the defendant from having to pay initial consultation fees, medical report costs, engineering reports, basically anything that was needed to accompany the PIAB application. Seems a little unfair on the plaintiff. I know when a person employs a solicitor to assist with a PIAB application they must accept they have to pay these legal costs, (except for very limited costs), but where a defendant refuses to accept PIAB and forces the case to court it doesn't seem very balanced that the plaintiff must bear the cost of the original work when the defendant can always refuse the PIAB route (no matter the strength of the claim).

mark1974

Maybe I should have stated earlier, that when the PIAB sent the county council notice of my claim and asking them did the council want PIAB to assess the claim, the council refused, thus ending the PIAB involvement and no report was needed from them.
This is why I'm wondering where the 1500 fee comes from.

Milk & Honey

The 1500 will be the solicitors fee for processing the PIAB application. The medicals will be included in special damages. From what you say it appears the liability was in issue and the solicitor was acting on a no foal no fee basis. If that is the case he would have had to spend a lot of time investigating the merits of the case in addition to completing the PIAB form. Even if the Council had agreed to an assessment, the solicitor would have little work to do until after the assessment when he would have to advise you as to whether it was adequate.

mark1974

So just to be clear, you think its fair to pay this amount. As I said earlier, I don't mind paying whatever I have to pay as long as I don't walk out his door feeling ripped off.

McCrack

Yes €1,500 plus Vat for PIAB is normal

Milk & Honey

Predalien wrote: »

So the solicitor can't bill the defendant for anything that was done for the original PIAB application even where this stuff was also necessary for the court case? Doesn't that save the defendant from having to pay initial consultation fees, medical report costs, engineering reports, basically anything that was needed to accompany the PIAB application. Seems a little unfair on the plaintiff. I know when a person employs a solicitor to assist with a PIAB application they must accept they have to pay these legal costs, (except for very limited costs), but where a defendant refuses to accept PIAB and forces the case to court it doesn't seem very balanced that the plaintiff must bear the cost of the original work when the defendant can always refuse the PIAB route (no matter the strength of the claim).

There is no need for an engineering report or the like at PIAB. All that is needed is a basic medical report from a GP. PIAB only make an assessment when liability is admitted so engineering reports have no relevance. The cost of the PIAB application and the medical report become special damages in the court case and will be awarded to a successful plaintiff. The reason the solicitors fees are not awarded as in theory a person can bring their own application to PIAB and therefore the solicitors fee is not seen as necessary.
Once the PIAB authorisation issues the solicitor has to proceed with briefing counsel and get the litigation off the ground. There is relatively little overlap between waht was previously done and what has to happen at the litigation stage.

mark1974

Milk & Honey wrote: »

There is no need for an engineering report or the like at PIAB. All that is needed is a basic medical report from a GP. PIAB only make an assessment when liability is admitted so engineering reports have no relevance. The cost of the PIAB application and the medical report become special damages in the court case and will be awarded to a successful plaintiff. The reason the solicitors fees are not awarded as in theory a person can bring their own application to PIAB and therefore the solicitors fee is not seen as necessary.
Once the PIAB authorisation issues the solicitor has to proceed with briefing counsel and get the litigation off the ground. There is relatively little overlap between waht was previously done and what has to happen at the litigation stage.

So am I paying the solicitor €1500 for something that could have cost me €50 if I applied directly to PIAB?

Kosseegan

mark1974 wrote: »

So am I paying the solicitor €1500 for something that could have cost me €50 if I applied directly to PIAB?

In theory. If you had made a mistake and lost the subsequent court case it would have been tough luck. If your solicitor had done it, you could have sued him. As an experienced professional it is to be expected that a solicitor is much less likely to make an elementary mistake and lose the case, in whole or in part.
It is the same if you are not an electrician and re-wire your own house. Nobody but yourself to blame if it goes wrong. The chances of it going wrong are also higher.

bjbcool

Kosseegan wrote: »

mark1974 wrote: »

So am I paying the solicitor €1500 for something that could have cost me €50 if I applied directly to PIAB?

In theory. If you had made a mistake and lost the subsequent court case it would have been tough luck. If your solicitor had done it, you could have sued him. As an experienced professional it is to be expected that a solicitor is much less likely to make an elementary mistake and lose the case, in whole or in part.
It is the same if you are not an electrician and re-wire your own house. Nobody but yourself to blame if it goes wrong. The chances of it going wrong are also higher.

Seriously PIAB application €1500! I would try and follow up with PIAB and see what documentation was submitted on your behalf by your solicitor. Other than the initial application form I doubt if it was much paper work as your solicitor should have been aware the defence were not agreeing to liability thus ending the process with PIAB and any other costs associated with them. Failing that you could follow up with Law Society and try get all your solicitors fees/charges & other liabilities assessed by Tax man. Good luck!