How to get into development?

G-Money

I already work in IT in the software end of things doing some engineering type work but I would like to get into pure development. I've been working in the industry for about 12 years at this stage so I've a good range of experience in different areas.

However the only development work I've done has been tools and the like and even then, it's never been a full-time job. It's basically been a situation where I have to do something in my job at the time that's a pain in the arse to do manually and I go off and write a tool to do it for me. While this might show initiative etc, the obvious downside for me is that any sort of OOP concepts or proper design methodologies rarely get used and I get found out in interviews when they start grilling me on programming. I never hide my lack of experience but it's frustrating when it lets me down. The tools can be quite small and I often just write it to get it working and put very little thought into using classes and the like, although I have begun to do this more recently. But often I find I've dug myself into a hole a bit and get the thing working but feel I need to go back and re-write it.

In my current job I've asked to get more involved with development and things are moving that way slowly but with the setup at work, I'm never going to get to do it full-time as I'm a contractor and part of reason I've kept my job is the other work that I do. Permanent roles are few and far between where I work as well, or at least at a level where they would consider me.

What would be my chances of getting some sort of junior dev role, bearing in mind I've no proper training and probably don't have a great grasp of the fundamentals of programming and OOP? I'm getting better at it and starting to think more in terms of using classes etc. But if I got a dev job and they expected me to hit the ground running, I'd be scundered, to be followed by being shown the door.

Any thoughts on how to transition? It would be good to hear from others who have perhaps done something similar.

I don't know if this makes any difference, but I would be aiming to work exclusively with .Net.

Thanks.

conor.hogan.2

Even if you have not used OOP or proper testing or whatever I would still try to upload that code to github or elsewhere so you can show it off.

If they ask you about them explain why you wrote it which will show passion but also point out that if you were doing it again you would test or modularize or do X or whatever just show them you have the passion and know where you have gone wrong.

Then maybe re-write something you wrote in C# or whatever new language you learn properly and do unit tests, comments, documentation, proper structure etc and show that off too.

I would continue to work where you are working, take on as much programming as you can in that job and learn programming proper in your own time.

(Me I did a conversion MSc after I finished my degree so I had formal classes to teach me mostly, this may be an option for you - They do not teach any .NET though, but that should not really be a problem)

Colonel Panic

What's your Github username, Conor?

conor.hogan.2

Colonel Panic wrote: »

What's your Github username, Conor?

I have no example code up Colonel Panic, you could find my Github account though it is not that hard

What is yours

Anyway the point stands, when you are not a recent graduate and do not have a college degree you need something to show and that something is sample code.

Steve

I'm in the same situation to some degree Conor - my personal selling point there would be I learn stuff 'the hard way' and, not being constrained by convention/ sheepism, am more able to be innovative and think outside the box.

The Corinthian

G-Money wrote: »

What would be my chances of getting some sort of junior dev role, bearing in mind I've no proper training and probably don't have a great grasp of the fundamentals of programming and OOP?

In the present economic climate, slim, as there are fewer jobs and more people far better qualified or experienced than you going for them - just because you have the initiative to go in at the deep end, doesn't mean that there's someone out there who does this too and has a computer science degree.

Self learning, through personal projects and freelance work, can help a lot. Angle for some development projects via your network of contacts - even if it means doing one for little or no money - as they you can show concrete evidence of development experience.

However, I think you will need a qualification also. If you already have a bachelor's degree, there are a number of evening masters courses (geared towards people with your professional background) you can do which will give you this in about two years. Otherwise look at degree or reputable diploma courses in computer science. Now is the time to apply for these, BTW.

Hold onto your job, build up a modest portfolio of work experience and get a qualification and at the end of it you'll be in an excellent position to get such a job.

k.p.h

I like the cut of your jib Steve

G-Money

I should probably point out that I don't have a degree of any description.

everdead.ie

Hi G-Money,
I am a recent Grad also very intrested in Development and to increase my chances of being deployed in a more Development role I am doing some .NET certification.

I would definetly recommend getting certified in a language.

The three languages that seem to be in demand are c#, c++ and Java if you can get certified in one it should vastly increase your chances of getting to go more Development work.

G-Money

What's the market like out there for C# vs Java developers? I've been looking this evening and I get the impression there's more demand for Java developers but I could easily be wrong.

I guess my limited experience so far has been with .Net so I'm trying to work out if I should try and enhance that or perhaps start over in Java. Although I don't know if getting into a job with either would be any easier.

conor.hogan.2

Definitely more a demand for Java developers in Ireland (which makes sense considering its higher usage internationally in web, desktop and mobile)

But not much difference between the two, in general*.

*Disclaimer I have only recently started looking into .NET and only part time as I will not be working with it for the foreseeable future. I am just looking into it out of curiosity and to learn different ways.

kayos

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Definitely more a demand for Java developers in Ireland (which makes sense considering its higher usage internationally in web, desktop and mobile)

Where are you getting your figures? Or is it subjective observation?

Java having a bigger share in the desktop market than .NET? First time I've seen that stated as fact...I've yet to see a Java UI that can even compare to a WinForms UI never mind WPF. I work in a Java shop as a .NET dev... but thinking about the day to day tools that people use the majority are WinForms and WPF apps would be more common on the desktop than Java from my experience. Heck even though we are a Java Shop if they want a end user facing UI the majority of them are in the .NET tech stack.

For mobile app's if your speaking about phones...You have Android after that you have objective C on iOS and of course .NET on WP. Not into mobile dev so don't know what RIM devices use.

Server side...fair point but would be good to see the figures. Still though not like you wont see some major players running ASP.NET (MVC or not) web sites. And I've written plenty of enterprise level systems over the years written purely in the MS Tech stack.

Colonel Panic

You see what you want to see. The majority of my commercial experience is C++ with a couple of years C# and all I see when I look for work is .Net roles!

conor.hogan.2

kayos wrote: »

Where are you getting your figures? Or is it subjective observation?

Java having a bigger share in the desktop market than .NET? First time I've seen that stated as fact...I've yet to see a Java UI that can even compare to a WinForms UI never mind WPF. I work in a Java shop as a .NET dev... but thinking about the day to day tools that people use the majority are WinForms and WPF apps would be more common on the desktop than Java from my experience. Heck even though we are a Java Shop if they want a end user facing UI the majority of them are in the .NET tech stack.

For mobile app's if your speaking about phones...You have Android after that you have objective C on iOS and of course .NET on WP. Not into mobile dev so don't know what RIM devices use.

Server side...fair point but would be good to see the figures. Still though not like you wont see some major players running ASP.NET (MVC or not) web sites. And I've written plenty of enterprise level systems over the years written purely in the MS Tech stack.

Look at any job site.
Look at any of the language popularity surveys.

The Desktop point was bad wording by me, .NET is definitely in more usage there.

Colonel Panic wrote: »

You see what you want to see. The majority of my commercial experience is C++ with a couple of years C# and all I see when I look for work is .Net roles!

That is not true, look at any of the job sites in Ireland and the majority are Java roles. Of course there is plenty of work in every corner and using pretty much every language under the sun to varying degrees.

Yep jobs.ie, irishjobs.ie and monster.ie all return substantially more results for java vs .NET

Which is what the OP asked.

Colonel Panic

Searched for Java and C# on irishjobs.ie and they both yielded 3k results. I'm not disputing what you're saying, but let's narrow the search parameters a bit.

Are we talking junior or senior roles? "Enterprise" stuff only?

conor.hogan.2

Colonel Panic wrote: »

Searched for Java and C# on irishjobs.ie and they both yielded 3k results. I'm not disputing what you're saying, but let's narrow the search parameters a bit.

Are we talking junior or senior roles? "Enterprise" stuff only?

Odd I searched java which got 854 and .NET as 536

Also I searched irishjobs for what you searched and got very different numbers.

Exactly you make a good point, it would all depend on what you want to work at.

But to say .NET or C# is used more widely over Java in general is very very disingenuous.

----
They are all just tools for the job, but if you had to pick one which was more widely used then it is Java by most metrics.

Colonel Panic

For what it's worth, I selected Dublin to get those numbers.

I have no idea about Java anything. I haven't used it since college! All I was saying was, regardless of technology, there's loads of work out there!

conor.hogan.2

Colonel Panic wrote: »

For what it's worth, I selected Dublin to get those numbers.

I have no idea about Java anything. I haven't used it since college! All I was saying was, regardless of technology, there's loads of work out there!

That is true, I did not debate that and that is not what the OP asked though.

I am looking into .NET myself currently because of a post on this forum for free access to online courses in it (out of curiosity)

You will not go hungry knowing either any time soon and knowing both will improve your knowledge. They each have their own way of doing things and you can learn a lot from knowing both even if you mainly only use one or the other.

kayos

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

But to say .NET or C# is used more widely over Java in general is very very disingenuous.

Hello pot please meet kettle...

First I will say this I am not arguing that Java is less popular than .NET but I am debating what you are saying.

You say the metrics say java is more widely used. The only metric you give is number of job opening's.

Just because there are more jobs in a tech stack at a given point in time does not mean it is more widely used. Its worth noting the job opening numbers per tech stack change over time. At one point last year Galway would have returned more .NET then Java, then that flips on its head a few months later and will flip again and again. Its the way the job market goes. I will say that in general Java openings would be greater though.

Also dont forget that job sites will return multiples of the same opening in a lot of cases as the opening will be with many agencies. I know of one position that I was contacted about by no fewer than 5 agencies... When contracting I saw contracts with 3 or 4 agencies. And lets not forget the "CV Harvesting" openings...or have they finally stopped doing that?

You stated java is more widely used in 3 environments Mobile, Web and Desktop.

You have admitted you were wrong about desktop. Fair play

How about mobile? Only one smart phone OS I know of runs a Java based tech. iOS doesnt neither does WP. If RIM devices run java then fair enough but I'm guessing objective C is more widely used in the mobile sector. With Java catching if not near par.

As for Web you might like to look at the below:
http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language

I'm not going to say this site is bullet proof in terms of stats but.... even with a large margin of error Java is hardly winning the Web war, either is ASP.NET. So again your statement is wrong (if the stats are to be believed)

You did however leave out Java's big thing appliances.. that's a major sector for Java. Set top boxs, dvd players etc.

conor.hogan.2

http://www.langpop.com/
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

General usage (what the OP asked for...)

and specifically mobile

http://www.gadgetbox.msnbc.msn.com/technology/gadgetbox/android-market-share-surpass-40-percent-year-122857

and a different metric (we can all post references to back up pretty much any view…)

http://w3techs.com/technologies/topsite/programming_language

kayos wrote: »

First I will say this I am not arguing that Java is less popular than .NET but I am debating what you are saying.

I will say that in general Java openings would be greater though.

You did however leave out Java's big thing appliances.. that's a major sector for Java. Set top boxs, dvd players etc.

Thanks for pretty much agreeing with me. You can of course find places where one is more used than the other but in general Java is more widely used.

On the web front I never mentioned web and I never mentioned other languages (PHP…..) because this is none of what the OP asked.

As mentioned if you want to get into certain sections then of course some languages fit better, "right tool for the job" but the OP asked in general and in general we all agree Java is used more.

"resync - specializing in .NET and SQL Server" - oh 100% un-biased.

kayos

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Definitely more a demand for Java developers in Ireland (which makes sense considering its higher usage internationally in web, desktop and mobile)

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

On the web front I never mentioned web

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

"resync - specializing in .NET and SQL Server" - oh 100% un-biased.

Yes .NET is my chosen field and I've never been out of work bar two weeks back in 98 although at that stage I was c/c++ and another obscure language/environment that went the way of the dodo. But not once have I stated that .NET is bigger than Java. I also have also worked on Java (basic stuff more fixing bugs than developing), C/C++, and Oracle projects to name a few. I know that there are certain benefits to each depending what you are looking for. I also know that Java is bigger in certain fields and those fields give it the majority. Heck I was the one that pointed out one of the biggest sectors where Java is king.

And thanks for reminding me to take that link out of my sig.

Any way we're getting off topic and its my doing sorry mods.

The Corinthian

The .NET versus Java discussion is a bit pointless IMO.

There may be more projects employing one of the above being sourced for at present, but in itself that does not mean that there are more projects employing that technology overall.

It also varies from country to country and industry to industry. In places you might get more Java, in others more .NET.

And within two years time it'll change again anyway.

Both technologies are in common use in higher-end, particularly Web, projects and likely to remain so for the time being. Arguing which is more popular is a bit like arguing what the economy is like today or tomorrow on the basis of last quarter's data.

conor.hogan.2

People would do well to look at what the OP asked and take things in context. Also read the whole thread, again context.