Is a subscription a contract?

tsoparno

I've just witnessed my ten yr olds 20 euro credit been taken from his phone in the space of 12hrs. This I was told when I contacted three, they told me it was a third party subscription service that had being set up.
From checking out other threads this scam seems to be running a while now. the 57030 number is credited to a company based in Dublin, they charge something like 2.70 a txt and cleared out his credit within hours. Originally I thought my kid had sent his number on to something, but it looks like that might not be the case, it seems possible that he may only have clicked on an ad! and then been signed up.Not sure exactly what he did do, but would like to find out how to fight this ****.
My question really is, is a subscription considered a contract and if so should a minor not be allowed to enter into a contract?

BrianD

You should ask your operator if they have any "trusted partners" that they exchange your data with. It would seem that some operators have these arrangements where they transfer your phone number to these third parties.

The answer you got from your operator is not good enough and you should persist with them to explain what happened. Remember they are getting a cut off this subscription as well so they can't pretend to be an innocent party with no financial interest.

Conor Pope in the Irish Times may also be interested in hearing from you as he published a similar story a while back.

Three also have a "Talk to" on this site so I'd put your complaint to them there.

(BTW I'm a little surprised that a 10 year old would have a phone)

Peregrinus

A subscription is a contract, generally speaking. A minor can enter into a contract for
"necessaries". You don't say what he's (supposed to be) getting for his 2.70 per text, but I'd be surprised if it was considered something "necessary" to a ten-year-old.

However the contract may not be with him. Is the phone contract with Three in his name, or in yours? If it is in your name, then the contract with the "service provider" is likely with you, and not with your son. (By handing him your phone, you have effectively appointed your son as agent to conclude contracts on your behalf.)

Del2005

There is a thread on another forum about people getting scammed by clicking on ads on some apps, can't search as on phone. The response was tough luck from the phone companies, but ComReg are supposed to be looking at it.

Is it not a kop out trying to use the fact that your child can't enter a contract when you're talking about their phone and their credit? If you do push this will the provider not just cancel the account, as a 10 year old can't enter a contract and PAYG is a type of contract.

It is criminal what these text companies are doing, the problem is our laws are too slow to react.

tsoparno

Thanks for the suggestions.
Brian, I didn't want him to get the phone but as it's all he looked for for xmas our hand was a little forced. Besides he's gettin to the age when he won't be by our sides full time.
I follow Conor Pope on twitter so I will contact him and the three forum here.

Peregrinus, I just checked the txt's again, basically their just sending links to competitions and draws. His mother gave the childs name in the shop on purchase as three didn't want to talk to me until i explained he was a minor.

Del, I did see that thread and will drop a line to comreg too. I'm not sure if PAYG is a contract and that really is part of my query. I thought a minor couldn't enter a contract without parent consent. I had almost excepted his fate and thought he had forwarded his number until I read that other thread and realised he may of only clicked on an ad.

I think the big question is how are they getting the numbers, is it through a collaboration with the provider or software on the adverts.

BrianD

tsoparno wrote: »

I think the big question is how are they getting the numbers, is it through a collaboration with the provider or software on the adverts.

The following is a general remark and may not be applicable to your operator or what happened to your child.

There seems to be some arrangement between operator and service provider that when you click on a banner advert that it also transfers the customers mobile number at the same time so that billing can take place. Somebody else here as pursued another operator and got this admission from them.

I don't know about you but if I click on a banner advert anywhere - even with a strongly worded call to action like "Get it" or "Buy now" - that I don't expect an order for a service to take place until I actually go through a routine of placing an order.

It would be interesting if you can find out from your son where this banner was presented (was it the homepage of the operator).

Also out of curiosity, find out what protections they have in place when it comes to an account that they know is being used by a minor.

tsoparno

BrianD wrote: »

The following is a general remark and may not be applicable to your operator or what happened to your child.

There seems to be some arrangement between operator and service provider that when you click on a banner advert that it also transfers the customers mobile number at the same time so that billing can take place. Somebody else here as pursued another operator and got this admission from them.

I don't know about you but if I click on a banner advert anywhere - even with a strongly worded call to action like "Get it" or "Buy now" - that I don't expect an order for a service to take place until I actually go through a routine of placing an order.

It would be interesting if you can find out from your son where this banner was presented (was it the homepage of the operator).

Also out of curiosity, find out what protections they have in place when it comes to an account that they know is being used by a minor.

Totally agree Brian, but trying to get that info from my kid would be like trying to get blood from a stone. I contacted Fiona(three boards rep) Interestingly the only advice she could offer was to txt STOP to the number and request a refund through comreg. I pushed her on what three are doing to combat this scam but she wouldn't even comment on it. Obviously not allowed to comment, which makes it even more frustrating. So I contacted the company and comreg, both by email and guess who's the first to respond, the company with an automated email. Comreg as other posters have said are pretty much useless. So I await further respones!

MagicSean

This kid is ten and you just had to get him a phone? i think you should stop looking for people to blame for this problem. He clearly is not responsable enough to have a phone. Take it off him til he is older and cancel the number and you won't have to worry about it.

BrianD

tsoparno wrote: »

Totally agree Brian, but trying to get that info from my kid would be like trying to get blood from a stone. I contacted Fiona(three boards rep) Interestingly the only advice she could offer was to txt STOP to the number and request a refund through comreg. I pushed her on what three are doing to combat this scam but she wouldn't even comment on it. Obviously not allowed to comment, which makes it even more frustrating. So I contacted the company and comreg, both by email and guess who's the first to respond, the company with an automated email. Comreg as other posters have said are pretty much useless. So I await further respones!

Well in the case of the other operator, the poor guy on Boards didn't know either that there was such an arrangement in place and then had to backtrack.

The transfer of your number by clicking on the advert requires the cooperation of the mobile operator.

So I'd keep pressing her buttons until she gives a definitive answer. It's simply unacceptable for this advertising to obtain a customer number, then allow a charge that an operator gets a cut of and for the operator to turn around and say "ain't us, brother!"

tsoparno

MagicSean wrote: »

This kid is ten and you just had to get him a phone? i think you should stop looking for people to blame for this problem. He clearly is not responsable enough to have a phone. Take it off him til he is older and cancel the number and you won't have to worry about it.

Don't know if your trolling or aren't aware of the scam, but it doesn't just affect kids, adults also have been subjected to this ****e. There's clearly something under handed going on and comreg clearly haven't dealt with it. Yes, he's ten read the thread, I want to be able to contact him because he's not always by my side. Sorry if that doesn't fit in with your interpution of parenting but times.. they are moving on.

MagicSean

tsoparno wrote: »

Don't know if your trolling or aren't aware of the scam, but it doesn't just affect kids, adults also have been subjected to this ****e. There's clearly something under handed going on and comreg clearly haven't dealt with it. Yes, he's ten read the thread, I want to be able to contact him because he's not always by my side. Sorry if that doesn't fit in with your interpution of parenting but times.. they are moving on.

In the case of someone older they have a chance of dealing with the problem. you said yourself that you can't even get information from your child. Do oyu have any kind of restriction in place? This is essentially the same situation as the kids who used their parents credit cards to buy farmville stuff.

As to your piece about using the phone as a parenting advice. If a ten year old is not by your side I presume he is near by or with another adult that can be contacted so i can't see the need for a phone.

tsoparno

MagicSean wrote: »

In the case of someone older they have a chance of dealing with the problem. you said yourself that you can't even get information from your child. Do oyu have any kind of restriction in place? This is essentially the same situation as the kids who used their parents credit cards to buy farmville stuff.

As to your piece about using the phone as a parenting advice. If a ten year old is not by your side I presume he is near by or with another adult that can be contacted so i can't see the need for a phone.

Your missing the point here. They, kid or adult don't have a chance of dealing with it because it's totally hidden, in fact from research you don't even have to click on an ad for some of this malware to kick in. Is the farmville stuff hidden too?

yellowlabrador

I have an elderly friend who struggles to read and write. She got scammed by some message offering her free credit. As soon as I get rid of one service, she's signed up to another, without realising what she's letting herself in for. I agree that she's a bit gullable but it still annoys me that these companies can get away with this. It really isn't very clear to her that she's signing up to a service that will take her credit.

tsoparno

yellowlabrador wrote: »

I have an elderly friend who struggles to read and write. She got scammed by some message offering her free credit. As soon as I get rid of one service, she's signed up to another, without realising what she's letting herself in for. I agree that she's a bit gullable but it still annoys me that these companies can get away with this. It really isn't very clear to her that she's signing up to a service that will take her credit.

It's not even that it isn't really clear, it's deliberately totally absent.

tsoparno

Here's a turn up for the books!

I contacted Zamano the company in question, worded a strongly written email stating that it was a minors phone and I wanted the credit refunded immediately. Also stating that I wanted proof of consent for the withdrawal of funds and if not returned within five days there would be a 200 percent per day interest charged. Yes maybe a OTT but alas, just received an email to say the number has been unsubscribed from the service and a refund will be with you within five working days.

BrianD

tsoparno wrote: »

Here's a turn up for the books!

I contacted Zamano the company in question, worded a strongly written email stating that it was a minors phone and I wanted the credit refunded immediately. Also stating that I wanted proof of consent for the withdrawal of funds and if not returned within five days there would be a 200 percent per day interest charged. Yes maybe a OTT but alas, just received an email to say the number has been unsubscribed from the service and a refund will be with you within five working days.

Did you get an explaination as to how your son got subscribed?

You wouldn't be blamed if you got the impression that nobody wants the spot light to light up this advertising banner "mystery".

I know you got your loot back and "are sorted" but it would be great if you would press firmly on with your operator to give an explanation as to how your son's number (personal data) got transferred to a third party through an advertising banner. Also ask them to point out where it says in the T&C's of service for pay as you go customers.

I was just looking at the Zamano web site and I'm some what at a loss as to why they would describe ComReg, the industry regulator, as a "partner".

tsoparno

BrianD wrote: »

Did you get an explaination as to how your son got subscribed?

You wouldn't be blamed if you got the impression that nobody wants the spot light to light up this advertising banner "mystery".

I know you got your loot back and "are sorted" but it would be great if you would press firmly on with your operator to give an explanation as to how your son's number (personal data) got transferred to a third party through an advertising banner. Also ask them to point out where it says in the T&C's of service for pay as you go customers.

I was just looking at the Zamano web site and I'm some what at a loss as to why they would describe ComReg, the industry regulator, as a "partner".

I'll wait till the cheque arrives and contact them again. With the two contacts at three I got nothing more then its a third party and out of our hands. And the fact that the money is being sent back relatively easily and without question, I think flags up something more sinister. I didn't spot that comreg partnership thing, thats a god damn joke, April 1st an all that must be

Peregrinus

tsoparno wrote: »

Here's a turn up for the books!

I contacted Zamano the company in question, worded a strongly written email stating that it was a minors phone and I wanted the credit refunded immediately. Also stating that I wanted proof of consent for the withdrawal of funds and if not returned within five days there would be a 200 percent per day interest charged. Yes maybe a OTT but alas, just received an email to say the number has been unsubscribed from the service and a refund will be with you within five working days.

This is good news, but it leaves you with the underlying problem that you have given your ten-year old son what amounts to an open purse with no clasp and a hole in the bottom. He will continue to lose money, and it unreasonable of you to expect otherwise.

Others have suggested that you should take his phone away. A less drastic step might be to replace it with a non-3G model so that he can still make calls and send and receive texts, but has no web access.

drunkmonkey

Replacing with a non 3G phone wont do anything this type of thing has been going on for years. Long before Edge & 3G arrived.

What you could do and I know a few parents who have is put junior on a flexi fix 15 account. It's fixed price bill pay so he can't go over the 15 euro. He never needs to top it up because he doesn't need to call any national or premium numbers and all he's going to cost you is €15pm fixed.

BrianD

tsoparno wrote: »

I'll wait till the cheque arrives and contact them again. With the two contacts at three I got nothing more then its a third party and out of our hands. And the fact that the money is being sent back relatively easily and without question, I think flags up something more sinister. I didn't spot that comreg partnership thing, thats a god damn joke, April 1st an all that must be

The issue here is that the problem hasn't got away and you could be doing the same thing again tomorrow.

I would put a direct message in writing to the Three rep on the board and I would also put it in writing to three. If you are writing to Three advise that you are going to copy ComReg on the letter.

the fact of the matter is that all these service providers have to negotiate a connection (bind) into each operator, use a number issued by ComReg, three bills the customer on behalf of the service provider, takes a percentage of the call charge and then passes payment to the service provider. It's not a matter of "it's out of our hands" and that it's mysterious third parties.

Do a search here and you'll find that another chap did some great work on this with another operator. Unfortunately, the regulator seems to have done nothing. Suppose you can't be a "partner" and a regulator!!

tsoparno

BrianD wrote: »

The issue here is that the problem hasn't got away and you could be doing the same thing again tomorrow.

I would put a direct message in writing to the Three rep on the board and I would also put it in writing to three. If you are writing to Three advise that you are going to copy ComReg on the letter.

the fact of the matter is that all these service providers have to negotiate a connection (bind) into each operator, use a number issued by ComReg, three bills the customer on behalf of the service provider, takes a percentage of the call charge and then passes payment to the service provider. It's not a matter of "it's out of our hands" and that it's mysterious third parties.

Do a search here and you'll find that another chap did some great work on this with another operator. Unfortunately, the regulator seems to have done nothing. Suppose you can't be a "partner" and a regulator!!

I had a look at the zamano site and couldn't find the partner link with comreg, just the list of other well known companies who they partner. Anyway, further contact with three this morn. They reckon the only reason I got a refund was that it was a minors phone. This I believe helps answer one of my original question's, as to whether this subscription/contract was legal/illegal. Three contacted zamano and they claim he entered his number to register, I except this but it still shows they are aware that they don't have a way of stopping minors from doing this, and probably don't care as how many people will go looking for a refund.

Others here have suggested a flexi fix contract, I didn't really want to sign up to another monthly bill and the cheapest one i can see on the site is 25 a month. So at the time i figured the top up of 20 a month(on paper anyway) should last him six weeks, because of the free txts and data included i feel he should be able to stretch it out. This hasn't worked out so far as its still relatively new to him and if I haven't the funds he won't get a top up simple as. Anyhows, sorted and a lesson learned.

drunkmonkey

tsoparno wrote: »

Others here have suggested a flexi fix contract, I didn't really want to sign up to another monthly bill and the cheapest one i can see on the site is 25 a month. So at the time i figured the top up of 20 a month(on paper anyway) should last him six weeks, because of the free txts and data included i feel he should be able to stretch it out. This hasn't worked out so far as its still relatively new to him and if I haven't the funds he won't get a top up simple as. Anyhows, sorted and a lesson learned.

He's 10, he shouldn't really have full internet access. I'm in the phone business and the things you'd see on kids phones would really make you wince considering their age. It's something you need to monitor. A 10year old does not need unlimited data, they need a ball and a yard of grass.
With the flex fix 15, he can use 60 flexi units for either call or a limited amount of data, he still has the free texts to all networks and free 3 to 3 calls. The plan is here http://www.three.ie/products_services/priceplans/billpay/flexifix_plans.html from a point of view of limiting his internet access and making sure your money doesn't get wasted on text scams of premium call lines it's the safest option. It's only a 30 day contract and it's fixed price so the bill will never be more than €15 and you can get out of it any time your want. It's doesn't come with a phone it's a sim only contract.

tsoparno

drunkmonkey wrote: »

He's 10, he shouldn't really have full internet access. I'm in the phone business and the things you'd see on kids phones would really make you wince considering their age. It's something you need to monitor. A 10year old does not need unlimited data, they need a ball and a yard of grass.
With the flex fix 15, he can use 60 flexi units for either call or a limited amount of data, he still has the free texts to all networks and free 3 to 3 calls. The plan is here http://www.three.ie/products_services/priceplans/billpay/flexifix_plans.html from a point of view of limiting his internet access and making sure your money doesn't get wasted on text scams of premium call lines it's the safest option. It's only a 30 day contract and it's fixed price so the bill will never be more than €15 and you can get out of it any time your want. It's doesn't come with a phone it's a sim only contract.

I like to think i can admit when i made a mistake, here goes I made a mistake. Your right he doesn't need access to the internet. The decision to go for all you can eat data clearly wasn't well thought out, from my end it was probably me trying to get maximum value and can honestly say I didn't see that plan even though I felt I had researched all the plans. Thanks for the link and will defo check it out.