Why are Irish property developers a protected species?

Slideshowbob

Would any other industry have had something like NAMA set up?

Alot of the debt that's been kicked 13 years down the road is property debt

They made money in the boom and got to keep the profits, yet in the slump the losses are socialised

They continue to prance around like kings, yet they are the most endebted amongst us

NAMA gives them the benefit of the doubt, upto 200k salaries and overheads, yet as property values continue to decline, how can they add value?!?

Does the average Joe not realise how these failed business people are being pampered by the taxpayer

4,000 protest to FG against a €100 charge yet how much are we overpaying in neg eq mortgages due to FFs policies?

Brussels Sprout

It's a national disgrace.

What can we do about it?

Slideshowbob

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

It's a national disgrace.

What can we do about it?

Organise a protest outside NAMA??

Another thing, the proclamation states to cherish all children of the nation equally, how much better are developers kids being treated ???

DoneDL

I would say that they gave out enough brown envelopes to guarantee being looked after. Their political pets will make sure that they are looked after.

Slideshowbob

DoneDL wrote: »

I would say that they gave out enough brown envelopes to guarantee being looked after. Their political pets will make sure that they are looked after.

Does that make it right? Could such set ups not be revisited??!?

Brussels Sprout

I knew this seemed familiar to me. I started a similar thread 2 years ago.

DoneDL

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Does that make it right? Could such set ups not be revisited??!?

Not when the bill could be up to 250 million Euro. None of the major players either in industry or politics will be touched, I would seriously doubt that there will ever be a full investigation into any single transaction related to questionable planning banking or building in this country.

Slideshowbob

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I knew this seemed familiar to me. I started a similar thread 2 years ago.

Well I can see why NAMA was set up but don't know why the developers who are endebted by 100s of millions are able to carry on with millionaires lifestyles and they haven't had everything taken off them. If a change in law is needed, it should be implemented to ensure some justice.

DoneDL

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Well I can see why NAMA was set up but don't know why the developers who are endebted by 100s of millions are able to carry on with millionaires lifestyles and they haven't had everything taken off them. If a change in law is needed, it should be implemented to ensure some justice.

Unfortunately it would require political resolve and honest politicians to do so. This country is lacking in both.

thebman

Developers getting wages paid out of NAMA is the most insulting thing of all. Why am I paying someone elses wages or is/was earning multiples of my wage (still more than I earn in most cases even when they are being paid by NAMA)?

I just find the whole thing disgusting TBH.

Slideshowbob

DoneDL wrote: »

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Well I can see why NAMA was set up but don't know why the developers who are endebted by 100s of millions are able to carry on with millionaires lifestyles and they haven't had everything taken off them. If a change in law is needed, it should be implemented to ensure some justice.

Unfortunately it would require political resolve and honest politicians to do so. This country is lacking in both.

Or could it involve an honest and informed public to take a stand and make politicians aware of what they can and can't do with public money

Doesnt the public elect the politicians?

On a more general level are we a subservient race that always will have comfort in being ruled by someone, high kings, British, church, Fisnna Fail, banks, developers?

Why are we that different to the British? And they live their monarchy....

namawinelake

thebman wrote: »

Developers getting wages paid out of NAMA is the most insulting thing of all. Why am I paying someone elses wages or is/was earning multiples of my wage (still more than I earn in most cases even when they are being paid by NAMA)?

I just find the whole thing disgusting TBH.

You're paying most developers €70-100,000 per annum and two are paid €200,000. NAMA has taken enforcement action against 180 developers so you're paying nothing for those.

In addition to the salaries you're paying overheads, we don't have precise numbers from NAMA but we do know NAMA pay €55m to 41 developers - an average of €1.4m each per annum.

NAMA's payment of salaries and overhead amounts to about 1.1% of the present value of the assets managed/developed by the developers. If NAMA engaged a receiver, it would pay 1.5%.

NAMA says it makes more sense to employ developers who are cheaper than the alternative, receivers.

If you know of a cheaper means of NAMA managing its assets then please share it.

Jaysoose

namawinelake wrote: »

You're paying most developers €70-100,000 per annum and two are paid €200,000. NAMA has taken enforcement action against 180 developers so you're paying nothing for those.

In addition to the salaries you're paying overheads, we don't have precise numbers from NAMA but we do know NAMA pay €55m to 41 developers - an average of €1.4m each per annum.

NAMA's payment of salaries and overhead amounts to about 1.1% of the present value of the assets managed/developed by the developers. If NAMA engaged a receiver, it would pay 1.5%.

NAMA says it makes more sense to employ developers who are cheaper than the alternative, receivers.

If you know of a cheaper means of NAMA managing its assets then please share it.

Nobody is asking for a cheaper alternative i think the point you seem to be missing is we are paying these guys to manage assets/advise when the developes themselves have proved they are incapable.

Why are they in Nama in the first place, because they managed to lose their shirts on unsustainable/unrealistic investments based on bad business plans and cheap credit.

Explain to us why these developers are deserving of any money or a position within nama.

External independent candidates should be employed in nama not a bunch of incompetent developers that have vested interests, they took a gamble and lost the lot they should be cut loose and made survive in the real world like the rest of the population.

quaalude

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Organise a protest outside NAMA??

Another thing, the proclamation states to cherish all children of the nation equally, how much better are developers kids being treated ???

I went to a "No to NAMA" protest (before NAMA was implemented) at the Garden of Remembrance in Dublin 1. There were at most 200 people there, and most of them had signs about hospitals and various other causes. There were probably about 50 people there protesting against NAMA.

sparkies

Hi guys

Dont know if this is in right place but i will ask anyway does anyone have any idea about Nama i was a spark that did work on properties Nama now has it on their books the developer never paid up but was never made bankrupt either he still living a good life whilst im owed £30000 i wanted to know does Nama have the right to take goods thats not paid for

thanks for your help

recedite

sparkies wrote: »

the developer never paid up but was never made bankrupt either

Presumably you can still sue his company for the money then, if it's not bankrupt.

sparkies

recedite wrote: »

Presumably you can still sue his company for the money then, if it's not bankrupt.

Yes i probably could, but to be honest i could not afford it i am from the north we have a simplier way over here to get money owed but in the south it takes a long time and lots of money also now as Nama he may just bust the company
just wanted to know if Nama has the right to take whats not paid for

MadsL

quaalude wrote: »

I went to a "No to NAMA" protest (before NAMA was implemented) at the Garden of Remembrance in Dublin 1. There were at most 200 people there, and most of them had signs about hospitals and various other causes. There were probably about 50 people there protesting against NAMA.

Those various other causes were 'NO to LISBON" mostly, I left the march half-way down OCS after asking people not to chant No to Lisbon.

recedite

sparkies wrote: »

Yes i probably could, but to be honest i could not afford it i am from the north we have a simplier way over here to get money owed but in the south it takes a long time and lots of money also now as Nama he may just bust the company
just wanted to know if Nama has the right to take whats not paid for

Nama is just his new bank, they won't deal with you because you are not their customer, he is.
We don't allow kneecapping down here in the free state, but surely you can get a barrister for less than £30000 ?

sparkies

recedite wrote: »

Nama is just his new bank, they won't deal with you because you are not their customer, he is.
We don't allow kneecapping down here in the free state, but surely you can get a barrister for less than £30000 ?

Now there is an idea

A barrister does cost a lot plus gets 5% along with his fee for anything claimed back with no guarentee to get anything

population

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Organise a protest outside NAMA??

Another thing, the proclamation states to cherish all children of the nation equally, how much better are developers kids being treated ???

Very well treated. Most of them were gifted as much of the money as possible through creative inheritance accountancy schemes to shield the builder from having to cough up what he owed. It is horrendous really

antoobrien

Not that any of you will read it, believe it or care but this is the NAMA point of view on the matter.

NAMA is not a debt-collection agency; we are a workout vehicle rather than a liquidation vehicle -- our job is to make the most of the loans we have acquired. But let's be realistic -- we have debts to collect and we will do so. Debtors need to work with us and we have to work with them and we try hard to do so.

We are also prepared to work with businesses that are having difficulty paying their rent to landlords that are NAMA debtors. We have received 150 applications for a reduction in rents and we have, so far, agreed to reductions in 120 cases. Work is ongoing to assess the remaining 30. We issued a guidance note on assessing rent reductions, which is available on the NAMA website, that we encourage tenants to read so that they are best prepared if they seek our help.

There are times when it makes good sense to lend money to bring unfinished work to completion. That is why we have approved more than €1.1bn in new funding, as we identify cases where lending this money can provide a better outcome for the taxpayer than not doing so.

Close to 50pc of this funding is in Ireland; this is important at a time when credit is scarce.

There are also times when it makes good sense to serve the people of Ireland in other ways, such as making NAMA-related properties available for job creation and social and community purposes. We are happy to do this and will continue to do it whenever it is possible.

Our bottom line is simple: if something is in the taxpayer's best interest, that is what we will do.

MadsL

NAMA wrote:

Our bottom line is simple: if something is in the taxpayer's best interest, that is what we will do.

Odd statement for a privately owned company. Doesn't shareholder interest come first?

antoobrien

MadsL wrote: »

Odd statement for a privately owned company. Doesn't shareholder interest come first?

The investment vehicle is over 50% taxpayer owned, so the taxpayer is the majority shareholder.

MadsL

I thought it was 51% private?? (goes to check)

According to the details provided to Eurostat, the Master SPV would be a separate legal entity and would be jointly owned by private investors, who would own 51% of its equity and therefore have the majority vote

Wikipedia - so may not be accurate...

Horses mouth

51% of its shares are owned in equal proportion by three private companies (Irish Life Assurance plc, New Ireland Assurance Co. plc and Percy Nominees Ltd., a nominee of AIB Investment Managers) and the remaining 49% are owned by NAMA.

http://www.nama.ie/about-us/group-structures/


Now the Govt purchase of Irish Life makes it interesting does it not? Anyone know what happened to Irish Life's interests in NAMA, it would appear at first look that the Govt is now breaching the conditions of the SPV under EU accounting rules. Anyone know better? - I'm guessing here really.

jmayo

MadsL wrote: »

I thought it was 51% private?? (goes to check)
http://www.nama.ie/about-us/group-structures/


Now the Govt purchase of Irish Life makes it interesting does it not? Anyone know what happened to Irish Life's interests in NAMA, it would appear at first look that the Govt is now breaching the conditions of the SPV under EU accounting rules. Anyone know better? - I'm guessing here really.

I always find this a laugh (also infuriating to be honest) when people discuss who owns NAMA.

NAMA is part owned by offshoots of the very entities that it had to bailout by taking their loans, some of which are not worth the paper they are written on. :mad:
And how much money did these private entities put into the pot to purchase these loans from their insolvent parent companies ?
Is the state and thus the taxpayers not the ones who actually are on the hook for all the money spent to buy these loans ?

recedite

Nama applied a haircut when taking over the non-performing loans. Then the taxpayer recapitalised the parent companies to compensate for the haircut.
Round and round it goes, until the taxpayer has picked up all the debt, and they get back their portfolios free of all the negative equity.

thebman

recedite wrote: »

Nama applied a haircut when taking over the non-performing loans. Then the taxpayer recapitalised the parent companies to compensate for the haircut.
Round and round it goes, until the taxpayer has picked up all the debt, and they get back their portfolios free of all the negative equity.

Yeah but they promised not to do it again in return so we are all square and even :P

MadsL

But....

In a decision issued in July 2009, Eurostat (the statistical office of the European Union) ruled that special purpose vehicles (SPVs) which were majority owned by private companies would be regarded as being outside of the government sector if they met a number of conditions. Among the conditions were that the SPVs were of temporary duration and were established for the sole purpose of addressing the financial crisis.

Does this not mean that the EU has to regard the NAMA loans as back within the Govt sector now?

recedite

That would be logical, but if the original haircuts were adequate, it would not affect the overall govt. debt position. It depends on how long they wait before flogging the properties, and how much they get for them.

recedite

Meanwhile in Germany, revenue gets access to cash stashed in hidden Swiss bank accounts. Similar to access already obtained by Britain.
No such moves here though, the brown envelopes still hold the magical power to ward off any unwanted interference.