Outboard advice and recommendations

pinksoir

I'm looking to start moving to some out of the box gear. I've been using VSTs up until now in my home studio and while I find them really good and easy to use I'd really like to move on to some hardware. So I've been looking at some different options. I want something that will add a unique character to my recordings, and I guess for that the first thing I'd need would be a preamp. I use a Presonus Firepod interface which has 8 in/out and its own preamps on each channel. I find them ok but nothing special at all, which is hardly surprising.

One thing I've been looking at is a Yamaha EM series or PM series mixer, like the EM-150 or the PM-430. These are analogue and from what I've found online their preamps have a certain amount of 'mojo', though can be a bit dark. Another option is something like this, which, from what I've found, is taken from an old tube reel to reel and converted to a rack mount unit. Reports are that it's good and definitely colours the sound a good bit. Alternatively could go current and get a Golden Age Pre, though I like the idea of getting something unusual, however I'm aware it could end up not being particularly versatile.

Would I be better to get a mixer with colourful preamps or a dedicated rack preamp? I use about 6 or 7 different instruments and plugging them in and out is a bit annoying... Though presumably if I did get a rack preamp I could then get a cheap enough digital mixer and run its mono out into the preamp as I'll only ever be recording one instrument at a time.

I'll likely build up my gear over a period of time, so I'm looking for advice on what order of necessity I should be working towards. I don't want to spend a lot on any individual piece of gear so think €300-500 max. I have a lot of FX pedals and I'm looking to get a nice tape echo. I use a lot of reverb so is there much of an advantage of a hardware digital reverb over a good software one besides avoiding CPU load? I have a spring reverb already.

I don't really understand compressors but realise they're pretty important so I'll have to read up on them properly.

What's the deal with channel strips?

What other outboard stuff should I be thinking of?

Also, should I be recording my stuff through my outboard stuff, or applying the effects to the tracks afterwards? eg. DAW track out->outboard effects->back in to new track in DAW. The gear I use is analogue and digital synths, guitars, bass, vocals, and pianet (electric piano). For drums I use Superior Drummer but for proper recording I'll track drums elsewhere.

Influences include stuff like Panda Bear/Animal Collective, Deerhunter, Grizzly Bear, Kuedo, 70s Bowie, Beatles, Grandaddy, Field Music, St. Vincent, MGMT, John Carpenter, Vangelis, Beach House, Giorgio Moroder... basically stuff with a nice organic sound, sometimes mixed with electronica, sometimes organic sounding electronica on its own.

The sound I want is definitely not hi-fi, but not lo-fi either. Somewhere in between and something warm, distinctive, with hiss and grit where needed, but also capable of rich cleans.

Sorry if this sounds garbled/unfocused/confused!

Thanks in advance.

madtheory

Those artists you mentioned mainly sound that good because they're good musicians, arrangers etc. The gear is only a tiny part of it. Seriously. You've bought in to an internet myth.

Those Yamaha desks are poop, I used a similar model years ago for PA gigs. Noisy, poor headroom.

You'd be a lot better off with this:
http://www.slatedigital.com/vcc.php

It's actually nice! And it does hiss.

This gets good reviews and was put together by some very good people, I haven't tried it:
http://trailer.web-view.net/Show/0X2DEFD56B9E308A419645F44062608F19001E04F11E943443882A20DB251A4443.htm

Also does hiss.

Or you could scout around for old reel to reel decks with valves. I used to use a Sony TC-200, valve line amps with germanium transistor based mic amps. It was good for the odd sound, but mostly crap.

TroutMask

I love my old Neve broadcast for mixing through, tracking through. Came in at 3Gs, so totally worth it. I also use a Lexicon PCM 91 as a reverb. When i track vocals I bounce them out of DAW into Neve and back out again into DAW. Sounds much better. I do the same with the reverb - send to it from DAW and stripe the OPs back on a couple of tracks. I use GML pres sometimes too - though the pres on my Prism are pretty good. I'd say go with your idea, audition gear until you find what you like - eventually you'll have a cool distinctive rig and sound. ITB is fine, but hardware was (and still is) where it's at. If I wasn't on a gear buying moratorium, I'd be buying right now: an API lunchbox; a Manley massive passive..........

pinksoir

@madtheory

Thanks for the reply. I'm aware of what makes those artists interesting. I could pick out tons of sonic elements from their records as I listen and it's not the arrangements, playing etc, but a specific sound (or colour or something) I'm hearing.

I demoed the Soundtoys bundle and find the Decimator really good for adding that extra something to tracks.

I dunno why but I want to move out of the box a bit. Maybe you're right and I have bought into an internet myth. Though I've found from recording in studios that a real tube preamp can make a difference compared to software emulations. That being said I just record demos at home, work out all the parts, arrangements and production, and then re record in a studio. So maybe I'm more attracted to the idea of glowing tubes and VU meters than the real world implications.

BUT I'm getting to grips with mixing after a good few years at it and would like to eventually be in a position to do everything myself. I'm at the point where every time I pay for studio time I feel it could be money spent on stuff for my own setup. Though obviously I'm aware of and happy to pay for the expertise of an experienced engineer for now.

Though to be honest, I don't trust anyone but myself to get the sound I'm looking for and it's frustrating trying to put what is in my head into words, and explain it to an engineer. I find it easier to do it by trial and error myself at home. And I've found from moving from VST synths to hardware that I can get into a zone much easier when I can go at it hands on. I just prefer hardware I guess. I like learning the little idiosyncrasies of a hardware unit and finding the sweet spots, and I just don't feel that with a mouse.

Basically, I am confident with my abilities as a songwriter/arranger/producer/musician and I have good peeps to help me out with the stuff I'm not so good at. I'd like to eventually be completely self reliant when it comes to making records and I'd like to make my workflow as smooth as possible. Maybe hardware is the way for me, or maybe I'm romanticising. But getting peoples opinions, like yours, certainly helps.

I have no idea if this makes any sense or makes anything clearer.

pinksoir

@TroutMask

Cheers for the reply. I don't think I'd ever be in a position to drop 3 grand on a desk or an effects unit though!

High end gear is definitely out of the question, but I get your point about finding what works for me and coming up with a distinctive rig.

fitz

pinksoir wrote: »

@TroutMask

Cheers for the reply. I don't think I'd ever be in a position to drop 3 grand on a desk or an effects unit though!

High end gear is definitely out of the question, but I get your point about finding what works for me and coming up with a distinctive rig.

If that's the case, then I'd forget about going out of the box.

I'd change your audio interface...upgrading from the Presonus to an Apogee Ensemble/RME Fireface/UA Apollo or something similar will make a massive difference to your tracking and monitoring.

TroutMask

I'd agree with Fitz, true pro audio comes at a price so unless you're willing to pony up then it's not really worth going the outboard route.

You could try to identify 'future classics' - as yet undiscovered 'studio stalwarts'. There have been quite a few units that were originally considered obsolete & of little use - and these have been resurrected as indispensable studio items. The Shure Level-Loc is an example. Don't be deterred by budget - rigs take time to build & if you port a bit of money out of each session, then the gear kind of buys itself. I made the decision not to be seduced by items in the 200 - 500 bracket, I'd rather have one good 3-5k piece than 10 300-500 range pieces. If you buy used quality gear it will not depreciate, in fact sometimes the opposite. Used mics I bought last year are going for 1/3 more than I paid now on eBay - in a recession! If you buy this way, you'll actually have collateral and retired gear can be liquidated to buy new stuff.

Pinksoir's interface advice is sound - no outboard will correct smearing or 'mix haze' caused by dicky converters or lame pres. These 'gnarlys' will actually drive you nuts as, with these present, you will never be able to nail the mix and self-doubt will creep in. The interface is your lens - it has to be clean/true. I went Prism, and what a difference! No mush - all instruments are clearly staged and the pres are great. That UA looks cool (I'm dying to try it); Apogee are good esp. if you're working w/ AVID stuff (as they're integrated); RME have a great rep.....

madtheory

Yes, you would need to be spending a lot more than €500 to get outboard that has that "magic" sound. But TBH I think the Slate VCC has that! I just sold my 1985 Amek BCII because ITB is so good now. Others disagree (like the guy who bought it off me!).

pinksoir wrote: »

I just prefer hardware I guess. I like learning the little idiosyncrasies of a hardware unit and finding the sweet spots, and I just don't feel that with a mouse.

I would be looking at hardware interfaces for your plugins. There's a huge range of configurable controllers available now. You're right, the mouse sucks! But it's the interface that's poor, not the sound.

I listened to your bandcamp, absolutely nothing lacking sonically there. Great sounds. Love the nylon on Mysterious Ways. So spend that €500 on a week in Lanzarote. Or a sculpture course for inspiration. Or a controller...

pinksoir

Cheers dudes. I take your points about cheaper gear and it makes sense. I guess one of the functions of plugins is that they make expensive outboard hardware available to people on a budget.

madtheory, maybe a decent hardware interface is a good idea. I had a Behringer BCF2000 which I found to be good if not a little buggy and cheap feeling. I sold it in the end because I never used it. I guess if I had a few go to plugins, as opposed to the rake of them I have at the moment I could build a midibox controller for them.

Also, I can't take credit for how that record sounds! It was done in Electrical Audio so obviously the gear was unreal. I was never completely happy with it though, but then I'm never happy with anything...

There are certain elements about my stuff that I find really hard to get right in the studio. I hate my vocal, for example. So when I'm recording at home I work a lot on getting the sound of the vocal just right. Maybe part of my thinking of getting my own outboard gear was so that I could have, for example, a particular go to preamp which I could bring to other studios when I record there. The problem with plugins is that unless they're free you can't transport them really.

fitz

pinksoir wrote: »

There are certain elements about my stuff that I find really hard to get right in the studio. I hate my vocal, for example. So when I'm recording at home I work a lot on getting the sound of the vocal just right. Maybe part of my thinking of getting my own outboard gear was so that I could have, for example, a particular go to preamp which I could bring to other studios when I record there. The problem with plugins is that unless they're free you can't transport them really.

I had the same issue with vocals.
Mic selection is the key there imo.
Try out everything you can get your hands on, and don't rule out dynamics.

pinksoir

Yeah, totally. Cheers.

madtheory

Recorded in Electrical eh? That explains why it sounds so good, LOL!

I have a problem with my vocals too. No matter what mic I sing into it always sounds like me. I guess I could try singing lessons.

pinksoir

Yeah, it's a bummer. Why do I have to sound like myself?!

That being said, I'm sure it'd be a bummer to sound like Morrissey if you were Morrissey or Lennon if you were Lennon.

if6was9

Gotta echo what the other guys are saying here and that you need to spend a decent amount of money before going OTB becomes worth it.

A big thing is the Firepod you're using. I was using them for a few years and about 3-4 months ago I upgraded to a RME Fireface 800. Everything is clearer, and mixes are coming together so much easier. I started using my outboard gear more and its sounds great, with the Presonus it was always "meh".

pinksoir

Yah, I hear you on that. I think I will upgrade my interface when I've the cash. The Firepod itself was an upgrade from... I can't remember, some M-Audio dealy many moons ago. The sound difference from doing that was unbelievable. So if you're saying the difference between a Fireface 800 and what I have now is another huge leap...

Seems like a bit of a no brainer, really. And something I'd completely overlooked.

CrimsonSounds

You need to decide based on workflow really. if you want to do simultaneous tracking of multiple instruments at the same time, then you need a bunch of preamps - and to get a bunch of high quality pre's is expensive. Firstly, you need to look at your converters. Like the guys said above, moving up to RME's etc will have sonic effects on whatever you input in there no matter what PRE you have. Signal flow wise, it's MIC/Line -> Pre -> Converter. Once you have converters sorted out, then you need to look at the pre. The tube pre you linked to may well be good, but you may find that having that specific colour on everything isn't necessarily what you were after. Like one of the guys said above, you need to start somewhere and build from there. You don't sound like you have massive budget to get to "there" immediately, so you need to think about where you want to be ultimately and start building from there - choosing gear wisely. Buying a meh desk because it has many pres and functionality at a low price could well leave you feeling disillusioned with the sound and demotivated, so be careful what exactly you go after. I'd imagine theres no way you can avoid popping a few patch cables from instrument to instrument but consider which of the following you would prefer: a) Recording 7 instruments through a low end desk and getting an average sound that leaves you working very hard ITB to repair the damage and get it where you want to be or b) Recording 7 instruments one by one into the box through a nice pre and converter chain and feeling really inspired about the results as each instrument is laid down ! Good luck with your hunt ! ;-)

boo3000

I also upgraded to an RME fireface, had an echo audiofire before and i noticed a huge improvement. In terms of pres a lot depends on what you're gonna be recording, if your looking at recording a full band with drumkits etc you're not just talking pre's, mics and converters you also have to look at acoustics and at this stage your talking pretty big money.
If your doing electronic stuff and just overdubbing some vocals and guitars, you might get away with a good 2 channel converter and one or two decent pre's. I haven't heard the golden age pre's but i have some chinese made neve clones and i find them really good. There's loads of info out there on good affordable preamps.
If you want to go down the desk route to record a lot of tracks simultaneously my advice would be don't unless you wanna spend some fairly decent money! Spend the money on going to a studio to track your band and if you want to, go home and mix, overdub etc with your two channel converter and one or two good pres.