Racist abuse: report or not?

Seanchai

At 15.05 (53 minutes ago) I was driving up the New Cabra Road. I stopped at the traffic lights at Cabra Cross. A guy in a white Vauxhall Vivaro came out from my right (Ratoath Road) and was turning right on to the Navan Road. There was a melanic-skinned lady in a Micra-like car in the lane next to him. She was driving straight on to the Old Cabra Road. Before they turned right for Navan Road, the guy in the front passenger seat of the Vauxhall then stuck his head out and shouted at that lady in the car next to him "N*gger!" laughed and they drove on.

Naturally enough, I recorded the registration of the vehicle in question. Should I report it? (and if so, to whom do I report it?)

GoldenTickets

Is this thread a wind-up? Of course you report it. What are you doing on here asking for opinions? The third poll option makes me think this is a put on.

Seanchai

GoldenTickets wrote: »

Is this thread a wind-up? Of course you report it. What are you doing on here asking for opinions? The third poll option makes me think this is a put on.

It's definitely not, obviously. Plenty of people would share any of these views. I hear racist and non-racist views every day of the week, from people of different "races". I also hear sexist, sectarian and other views. Just because you don't evidently share two of the above options doesn't negate the reality of their existence.

It's OK to get a view of this aspect of Dublin life in a Dublin city forum, surely?

The Hill Billy

No

If you wish to report it - contact Cabra Garda Station, Nephin Road, Tel: +353 1 666 7400.

Whether racist abuse should be reported in general is not a Dublin City-specific topic & should be taken up in the Humanities forum.

tHB

FreudianSlippers

No

It should certainly be reported as it may be potentially a crime under Section 2 of the Prohibition of Incitement To Hatred Act, 1989.

If found guilty the person could be liable to either

(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €10,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to both.

As can be seen from that it is not a minor or trivial matter.

GoldenTickets

Seanchai wrote: »

It's definitely not, obviously. Plenty of people would share any of these views. I hear racist and non-racist views every day of the week, from people of different "races". I also hear sexist, sectarian and other views. Just because you don't evidently share two of the above options doesn't negate the reality of their existence.

It's OK to get a view of this aspect of Dublin life in a Dublin city forum, surely?

It wasn't obvious.

This is how I see it, if you want to take action against racism then report the incident. If you're not bothered then don't. There's an obvious right thing to do here, do you really need to be persuaded of what that is? I don't see how a discussion is necessary for you to come to a conclusion of what the right thing to do is.

Denerick

Racist abuse should never be reported: mind your own business

What are you reporting? The person who was affected has the right to report slander, or verbal abuse, or whatever, but I'm not sure what business you have in creating a Rosa Parks scenario without the consent of the victim. Perhaps she doesn't want to undergo a legal process, with all the hassle, cost and stress, just so that a few local thugs get a slap on the wrists?

Racism is a cancer in our society but this is not the way to go about it. The only effective strategy for combating racism is social ostracism. It also gets the 'bloody PC crowd ruining our lives' rabble in a hot flush. Unfortunately to some it is a laughing matter but I'm not sure that there is much recourse to legal options.

Manach

Following on from Freudenslipper's post, would the OP (was not directly the object of the abuse) have the standing to make the complaint to the Guards?

Seanchai

The Hill Billy wrote: »

If you wish to report it - contact Cabra Garda Station, Nephin Road, Tel: +353 1 666 7400.

I just rang them and they said they couldn't take a report on the phone, that I'd have to come in and make a complaint in person. Usually when I report things (always littering, my pet hate, to DCC) I ring a number and leave the details with the DCC person there. I never hear back so maybe they don't do anything. :mad:

Seanchai

GoldenTickets wrote: »

Is this thread a wind-up? Of course you report it. What are you doing on here asking for opinions? The third poll option makes me think this is a put on.

GoldenTickets wrote: »

There's an obvious right thing to do here, do you really need to be persuaded of what that is? I don't see how a discussion is necessary for you to come to a conclusion of what the right thing to do is.

Denerick wrote: »

What are you reporting? The person who was affected has the right to report slander, or verbal abuse, or whatever, but I'm not sure what business you have in creating a Rosa Parks scenario without the consent of the victim. Perhaps she doesn't want to undergo a legal process, with all the hassle, cost and stress, just so that a few local thugs get a slap on the wrists?

Racism is a cancer in our society but this is not the way to go about it. The only effective strategy for combating racism is social ostracism. It also gets the 'bloody PC crowd ruining our lives' rabble in a hot flush. Unfortunately to some it is a laughing matter but I'm not sure that there is much recourse to legal options.

Now, see there are different viewpoints!

More seriously, I haven't a clue who she was. I was focused on identifying the individual who uttered the abuse, or at least his vehicle. I just saw her drive on. She possibly didn't hear it, or did and because she was probably not a native speaker of Hiberno-English thought she had misunderstood. I don't know. I, on the other hand, heard him clearly.

Seanchai

Manach wrote: »

Following on from Freudenslipper's post, would the OP (was not directly the object of the abuse) have the standing to make the complaint to the Guards?

What do you mean by "the standing"? I hope that doesn't imply I could be a drug-dealing scumbag

But standing, as in legal standing; that's what I'm wondering also. If I were to go to Cabra Garda Station and report it, would it have any relevancy when I wasn't the subject of it or would it just be a waste of everybody's time? Legally speaking, does this crime need a victim who's aware of it being reported?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dodderangler

Why should you have to report it it wasn't directed to you so let the person fight their own battles and you carry on with your own problems

Peregrinus

Unless the victim also reports it, the guards will probably take no action. It will be difficult to secure a conviction without the evidence of the victim.

But if the victim does report it, the fact that you have also reported it makes a prosecution much more likely. With your evidence, the prosecution will not degenerate into "oh yes you did/oh no I didn't" conflict of evidence between the victim and the accused, and the prosecution case will be much stronger.

mikemac1

Racist abuse should never be reported: mind your own business

Seanchai wrote: »

because she was probably not a native speaker of Hiberno-English thought she had misunderstood.

Seanchai wrote: »

shouted at that lady in the car next to him "N*gger!" laughed and they drove on.

Oh she heard it alright

You don't need a Irish accent to understand one word OP.

But she ignored it and did not react, you are getting offended on her behalf

looksee

Well honestly what was she supposed to do? React and 'accept' the insult? Get out of her car and have a road rage incident?

What kind of a cowardly moron do you have to be to go to the trouble of opening a window, leaning out and shouting at someone in an adjacent car. It is difficult to imagine how thick you would have to be to do that. Would he have done the same if the person was male, 6'4 and on foot?

aidan24326

Seanchai wrote: »

I just rang them and they said they couldn't take a report on the phone, that I'd have to come in and make a complaint in person. Usually when I report things (always littering, my pet hate, to DCC) I ring a number and leave the details with the DCC person there. I never hear back so maybe they don't do anything. :mad:

They probably don't do anything, and that really shouldn't surprise you.

You're wasting your time making a report of this. It's really not any of your business anyway imo. It would be up to the foreign lady herself to report it if she was offended. Nothing to do with you really. In any case the guards will likely do nothing about it. They'd need to take a statement from the lady in question and you don't even know who she was.

looksee wrote: »

Well honestly what was she supposed to do? React and 'accept' the insult? Get out of her car and have a road rage incident?

What kind of a cowardly moron do you have to be to go to the trouble of opening a window, leaning out and shouting at someone in an adjacent car. It is difficult to imagine how thick you would have to be to do that. Would he have done the same if the person was male, 6'4 and on foot?

No-one would deny that the guy was a moron. The issue is whether it's any of the op's business. In my opinion it isn't really, as the offending remark was not aimed at her but at a complete stranger, who has her own right to make a complaint if she's fit.

looksee

aidan24326 wrote: »

No-one would deny that the guy was a moron. The issue is whether it's any of the op's business. In my opinion it isn't really, as the offending remark was not aimed at her but at a complete stranger, who has her own right to make a complaint if she's fit.

I was referring to this sentence:

But she ignored it and did not react, you are getting offended on her behalf

The argument apparently being that if she had responded then the OP could mix in. Of course she ignored it, what else could she reasonably do, all the more reason for reporting it I would have thought.

im invisible

melanic-skinned lady

thats a new one on me
political correctness gone too far...

dave2pvd

Racist abuse should never be reported: mind your own business

aidan24326 wrote: »

It would be up to the foreign lady herself to report it......

Perhaps I missed something, but I don't believe anyone said she was foreign.

dodderangler

Let her fight her own battles and you mind your own
Got nothing to do with you or any of you
Let's all get involved in everyone's business and fight in argument that has nothing to do with us

looksee

dodderangler wrote: »

Let her fight her own battles and you mind your own
Got nothing to do with you or any of you
Let's all get involved in everyone's business and fight in argument that has nothing to do with us

Oh right, so that applies to child abuse, bullying, rape, gang crime, or indeed anything where someone is being abused - non of my business, let them sort themselves out. Great, hope you never have occasion to need anyone's help.

MaxSteele

Do you honestly believe the guards would waste their time looking for a car which allegedly belongs to someone who shouted n*gger out of a window ?
Bit of a trivial and pointless crime to report imo.

dodderangler

looksee wrote: »

dodderangler wrote: »

Let her fight her own battles and you mind your own
Got nothing to do with you or any of you
Let's all get involved in everyone's business and fight in argument that has nothing to do with us

Oh right, so that applies to child abuse, bullying, rape, gang crime, or indeed anything where someone is being abused - non of my business, let them sort themselves out. Great, hope you never have occasion to need anyone's help.

Where in that did I say anything bout child abuse or anything stop bein a mu***t and cop ON obviously u feel it falls into that category this is a grown person here that was gettin abuse so y help let her fight her own battles
F*** sake everything is poxy racism now who cares

Jimmyhologram

No

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Is there really such a firm line between words and actions, though? If one person slanders another, for instance, then those words can have a real effect in the world. Ditto verbal racism. Of course, what goes on in private conversation should be outside of the remit of law, but posting racist comments on the internet or shouting them in the street are just as real qua "actions" as fires, thefts, or punches thrown, and their effects ripple out into the world.

Emme

Racist abuse should never be reported: mind your own business

Seanchai wrote: »

At 15.05 (53 minutes ago) I was driving up the New Cabra Road. I stopped at the traffic lights at Cabra Cross. A guy in a white Vauxhall Vivaro came out from my right (Ratoath Road) and was turning right on to the Navan Road. There was a melanic-skinned lady in a Micra-like car in the lane next to him. She was driving straight on to the Old Cabra Road. Before they turned right for Navan Road, the guy in the front passenger seat of the Vauxhall then stuck his head out and shouted at that lady in the car next to him "N*gger!" laughed and they drove on.

Naturally enough, I recorded the registration of the vehicle in question. Should I report it? (and if so, to whom do I report it?)

Racist abuse, verbal or otherwise, is bullying. He didn't physically assault the woman or get her into a situation where she couldn't get away or defend herself. It's like this, if the woman driving the car had been blonde or red-haired and instead of saying "n*****!" the driver had shouted "dumb blonde!" or "ginger!" should that have been reported to the Gardai?

If anybody reported this incident it should be the woman herself. If she didn't see fit to report the incident why should it be anybody else's business if she wasn't being physically assaulted or the man wasn't endangering her or others on the road.

tfitzgerald

Quote:
melanic-skinned lady
What colour is that? . That statement sounds racist to me at the very least it's p c gone overboard . And op would you be as quick to post on here if the
melanic-skinned lady had called the van driver " whitey"

Emme

Racist abuse should never be reported: mind your own business

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Quote:
melanic-skinned lady
What colour is that? . That statement sounds racist to me at the very least it's p c gone overboard . And op would you be as quick to post on here if the
melanic-skinned lady had called the van driver " whitey"

It could be any of us because everyone, except albinos, have some melanin in their skin. As far as I know Black people are proud to be Black and happy to call themselves Black.

tfitzgerald

12 minutes ago I googled melanic and I got a load of pages on moths

Denerick

Racist abuse should never be reported: mind your own business

looksee wrote: »

Oh right, so that applies to child abuse, bullying, rape, gang crime, or indeed anything where someone is being abused - non of my business, let them sort themselves out. Great, hope you never have occasion to need anyone's help.

That is a classic case of reductio ad absurdium. You don't intervene on behalf of someone without their consent. If someone is getting raped, mugged or assaulted and you are in a position to help them (Without risking your own life of course - there isn't much point being a hero and ending up in the 7th page of the metro herald on a wet tuesday morning for your troubles) then it would be immoral not to do so. However if someone suffers racial abuse then what right does anybody have to drag that person through a court minefield? The person who scrolled down the window and used the 'N' word was an abomination of the human species and should suffer the full weight of social opprobrium for his behaviour... but unless the victim asks and wants justice, you really have no business butting in. Its quite paternalistic and inversely racist to assume you have a right to do so in the first place.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

looksee

Denerick wrote: »

That is a classic case of reductio ad absurdium. You don't intervene on behalf of someone without their consent. If someone is getting raped, mugged or assaulted and you are in a position to help them (Without risking your own life of course - there isn't much point being a hero and ending up in the 7th page of the metro herald on a wet tuesday morning for your troubles) then it would be immoral not to do so. However if someone suffers racial abuse then what right does anybody have to drag that person through a court minefield? The person who scrolled down the window and used the 'N' word was an abomination of the human species and should suffer the full weight of social opprobrium for his behaviour... but unless the victim asks and wants justice, you really have no business butting in. Its quite paternalistic and inversely racist to assume you have a right to do so in the first place.

Hm, pity you got in first with the Latin, because I would say that is a perfect description of what you have just written yourself! And how is anyone going to impose social opprobrium if the only person aware of what he did is the recipient (and the OP)?

slowburner

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

A refreshing if controversial point of view.
Avoiding Godwin's law is going to be a challenge.
As children, we were taught that 'Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.'
- Is this true? Probably not.
Of course physical crimes against the person are more serious than verbal ones such as libel, slander, racial abuse or incitement.
But in a pluralist society it is essential to isolate and deal with the causes of crimes against minorities.

I don't believe that anyone can distinguish between racial abuse and incitement to action. One follows the other.

If you want to isolate a group, the first thing you do is dehumanize them.
The first step in the process of dehumanization is to give that group a name which renders that tribe separate from your tribe.
This is the same phenomenon observed in states of war where the enemy is given a dehumanized name (hun, gook, raghead etc.) so that killing them absolves the killer of responsibility.
The enemy is named as an object rather than a person.
If the pejorative naming of a group or minority is tolerated - online or anywhere else - the first step in the process of dehumanization has occurred.
If tolerance for dehumanization is published, there is no difference between that and incitement to action.